How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3521  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 20, 2019 8:00 am

Spearthrower wrote:
In which pot - red or black - would you say there is more selection pressure occurring?


That's easy! The predators grazers will select the pot with more chili plants. Sometimes grazers just want to spice up their lives.

It's a seedy argument, I know. Capiscum?
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3522  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 20, 2019 8:02 am

Jayjay4547 wrote:No that's not good enough, it could explain why there could seem to be more complete info about dinosaurs, because paleontologists clump their categories more broadly than paleoanthropologists.


In for a penny, eh JJ?

Not sure what 'complete info' is supposed to mean.

But then I am not sure why you're comparing a single family to an entire clade then wondering why there's more of the latter.

But I do think it necessarily poses the question as to whether you're aware of the entire concept of geological stratigraphy. But if you did know and you started thinking about the quantities of relevant species present in different geological times, you might find that your notion is perhaps indicative of another elementary misunderstanding on your part.

I also think there's a further amusing quantity in the above which mirrors your misunderstanding of sexual selection as being something different than natural selection. Palaeanthropology is a branch of palaeontology, JJ. The same phylogenetic methods are employed in both with respect to identifying and categorizing species.

Again, given how little you know - and how obvious it is that you don't know it - why exactly are your pontifications meant to be considered seriously?
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3523  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 20, 2019 8:04 am

Cito di Pense wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
In which pot - red or black - would you say there is more selection pressure occurring?


That's easy! The predators grazers will select the pot with more chili plants. Sometimes grazers just want to spice up their lives.

It's a seedy argument, I know. Capiscum?


:lol:

I'll bet if we look closely, we can see that the plantlings in the red pot are the weak and pliable prey females who are being protected by the resolute, beedy leafed and toothily stalked man plant in the black pot with its projectile seed array.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3524  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 20, 2019 8:12 am

Spearthrower wrote:
I'll bet if we look closely, we can see that the plantlings in the red pot are the weak and pliable prey females who are being protected by the resolute, beedy leafed and toothily stalked man plant in the black pot with its projectile seed array.


Well, I never...
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3525  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 20, 2019 8:23 am

Thank god for the internet's democratization of knowledge meaning that the abjectly clueless can now contest on even footing with those who laughably spend thousands of hours studying the topic matter in detail at reputable institutions with credible experts... there in all its wonder if photographic evidence of the anatomical scaling of the male chilli plant with its symbiotically harnessed tomato drones firing a projectile weapon to defend its harem of weakling chilli womenfolk from the vigorous pursuit of challenging predators intent on gladiatorial combat.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3526  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 20, 2019 8:26 am

Spearthrower wrote:Thank god for the internet's democratization of knowledge meaning that the abjectly clueless can now contest on even footing with those who laughably spend thousands of hours studying the topic matter in detail at reputable institutions with credible experts... there in all its wonder if photographic evidence of the anatomical scaling of the male chilli plant with its symbiotically harnessed tomato drones firing a projectile weapon to defend its harem of weakling chilli womenfolk from the vigorous pursuit of challenging predators intent on gladiatorial combat.


That's a photograph I made, myself, inspired in a pre-pasta haze of hubris. You know, in a spurt of inquiry. Me, I have a symbiotic relatioship with tomatoes, peppers, and garlic. I grow them as pets, only to eat them. They get careful cultivation and enjoy leafing and fruiting, and I get pasta. The sausages are held in reserve as an extra incentive for our most persistent customers. When you hold a sausage, hold it tenderly, with reverence. If you don't know how to grow a sausage, there are ample lessons available on the internet.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3527  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 20, 2019 8:35 am

Cito di Pense wrote:
That's a photograph I made, myself,...


Ahhh field research!
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3528  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 20, 2019 8:44 am

Spearthrower wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
That's a photograph I made, myself,...


Ahhh field research!


I heard a disembodied voice: If you bullshit, they will come. I built a diamond in the roughage, and Clueless Joe Jackson appeared.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3529  Postby theropod » Jun 20, 2019 2:28 pm

Jayjay4547 wrote:
theropod wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:Predators on mammals crunch their bones to get at the marrow. Dinosaurs didn't have marrow in their bones so there was no point in crunching their bones.


Where the fuck did you get this idea? It’s seriously wrong.

RS


Well Hokay. I thought dinosaurs had hollow bones.


Some of them, like the maniraptoran theropods, did indeed have hollow bones. This fact is supportive evidence that those small theropods gave rise to extant birds. However other dinosaurs had a broad spectrum of skeletal traits. Sauropods, for example, had solid leg bones which helped support their mass. Tyrannosaurs had a sponge-like marrow which saved weight but still served the same function as yours or mine, and hadrosaurs had a marrow structure very similar to extant bovines. You should recall the discovery of possible red blood cells, vessels and fragmented DNA from the marrow of a T. rex. If there was no marrow there would be nothing of the sort to recover.

This is why you should participate in the broader forum, JJ. Ratskep is a treasure trove of good stuff offered freely for your edification. You would clearly benefit form such engagement.

I find your comment about paleo anthropologist disturbing and offensive. Those guys work under the same constraints and procedures as any other paleontologist because, wait for it, they are also paleontologists. If you think the anthropological side is competitive you should review the Cope/Marsh bone wars. Those guys dynamited fossils to deny the other side access.

Anyway, there is always more to learn, and a singular focus disallows a view of the entire landscape.

RS
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3530  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 20, 2019 5:13 pm

theropod wrote:If you think the anthropological side is competitive you should review the Cope/Marsh bone wars. Those guys dynamited fossils to deny the other side access.



Aye, there's always asshats in every profession, but palaeontology does seem to accrue some incredible rivalries, and even today you still see examples of abject unprofessionalism. Floriensis is a case example in this respect.

Asshat
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3531  Postby Svartalf » Jun 20, 2019 5:34 pm

:nono:
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3532  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 20, 2019 7:25 pm

The article about Teuku Jacob (like the main article on the fossil) notes that the species name is Homo floresiensis, connected to the island (Flores) on which it was first identified.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3533  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 20, 2019 7:52 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:The article about Teuku Jacob (like the main article on the fossil) notes that the species name is Homo floresiensis, connected to the island (Flores) on which it was first identified.



That's correct - I am sure I've misspelled it many times, and probably will do so many more times yet. :thumbup:


Edit: searching back through all my posts on this forum, it seems my miss rate is about 75% :oops:
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3534  Postby laklak » Jun 21, 2019 1:10 am

Propur speeling is overatted.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3535  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 21, 2019 1:54 am

There's a bunch of hominid species with really hard-to-spell names; A. deyiremeda, A. garhi (which for some reason I always think has either two r's or two i's), K. ayeyarwadyensis (that's just taking the piss), Samburupithecus kiptalami (it does roll pleasantly off the tongue though), P. tapanuliensis, Praeanthropus bahrelghazali (sounds like a bar-fighting australopithecine), H. tsaichangensis (probably not going to pass muster as a species anyway, so fuck learning that spelling!)

Fortunately, you typically just refer to them by their fossil designation, i.e. KNM-SH 8531, LB1, KT-12/H1 as you want to be talking about particular specimens from specific times and locations.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3536  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 21, 2019 2:07 am

In case anyone was wondering where all the fossil ID numbers come from: it's typically an abbreviation of the site name and sometimes local institute responsible for the expedition, so LB1 means it was the first fossil found in a cave called Liang Bua, KNM-ER is Kenya National Museum, East Rudolf site, SH is Samburu Hills, TM-266 is Toros Menalla, LH breaks the rules a bit - it's Laetoli Hominid.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3537  Postby LucidFlight » Jun 21, 2019 4:26 am

Spearthrower wrote:In case anyone was wondering where all the fossil ID numbers come from: it's typically an abbreviation of the site name and sometimes local institute responsible for the expedition, so LB1 means it was the first fossil found in a cave called Liang Bua, KNM-ER is Kenya National Museum, East Rudolf site, SH is Samburu Hills, TM-266 is Toros Menalla, LH breaks the rules a bit - it's Laetoli Hominid.

I was about to ask, actually. Many thanks!
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3538  Postby Jayjay4547 » Jun 21, 2019 4:45 am

laklak wrote: I've been following this thread for years and I still have no goddamn idea what it's about. Why would "atheists" want to hide evidence that early hominids bit cave lions and/or smacked proto-leopards with sticks?


That doesn’t read like a serious attempt to present the argument I’ve been exploring, especially recently. Here is the best I can do to explain what it is about.

Atheists want to avoid interpreting early hominid morphology in terms of a struggle for existence in relation to other organic beings or to external conditions and instead they want to interpret it terms of a struggle between the individuals of one sex, generally the males, for the possession of the other sex. That text is adapted from how Darwin contrasted natural selection from sexual selection in the 6th edition of The Origin of Species.

So with respect to the recent discussions on teeth, atheists want to interpret male primate canines in terms of sexual selection whereby those with longer canines struggled successfully with other males for possession of females, or maybe the females themselves chose to give their favours to males with longer canines.

Interpreted in terms natural selection, male primate canines serve to raise a credible threat of maiming biting, to “other organic beings” who are weighing whether to predate. Successful deterrence provides access to food resources, by the troop.

In the same terms of natural selection, the distinctive absence of long canines in early hominids shows that they did not raise a credible biting threat to predators, while their bipedal body plan and their wide distribution shows that they were adapted into highly successfully offering a credible threat through the use of hand held kinetic weapons.

The record of recent posts shows that “atheists” do in fact avoid interpreting hominid teeth in terms of natural selection, even going so far as to put a smokescreen over the basic issue of whether Australopithecus lacked long sharp canines in the first place. Even your good self in your post, drew a confusing picture over the basic point of what I have been arguing. This forum is a great laboratory for exploring “atheist” behaviour.

For the purpose of study, “atheist” should include posters who flatly say they aren’t atheists, but are some variety of rationalists. Because you share the same overall ideology and to call it “rationalist” would imply a neutral point of view, which is scarse here.

laklak wrote: What's the point? Where's the payoff? Who benefits?
Atheists benefit by gaining a level of assurance that helps them to get good jobs for themselves and like-thinkers in particular occupations such as lecturing at universities in the social and life sciences. Though the benefits that come from believing that one is one of a select group of “right thinkers” goes much beyond salary.

The link between the assurance and the hominid teeth is of course the tricky part in my position and that might be at the heart of your problem with it. An origin story in terms of relations within the group and explicitly excluding relations with other organic beings or to external conditions, is essentially a closed narrative. The actors are all hominins. In contrast, an origin story in terms of natural selection involves an outward spreading network of actors and systems of actors, such as one might try to invoke in words like biome or Africa or Gaia or eventually “God”.

laklak wrote: It's not like creationism isn't utter nonsense on the face of it, there's no need to lie to make it even more utterly fucking nonsensical.


Please don’t imply that I am lying Laklak; I’m doing my best to explain my position. It is not true that the creation of mankind happened from scratch over 6 days of 24 hours. But it did take place through a network of actors and systems of actors that doesn’t seem to have a clear outward limit either spatially or in terms of time. This system has been hugely creative, it is radically unpredictable by us and we have good reason right now, to fear it.

The human origin story in terms of evolution has several times drifted from an initial state towards a closed narrative. In The Origin of Species, Darwin drew a distinction between natural selection and sexual selection but focused on the former to explain general evolution. A decade later when he came to describe human evolution he devoted 2/3 of Descent of Man to sexual selection. Around the same time he revised Origins, clarifying that sexual selection is NOT about external conditions. In that interval Darwin had become a figurehead in a massive shift of public thinking that involved the collapse of religious control of Oxbridge and the creation of new model universities with a distinctly secular flavour.

Darwin’s justification for going into such length with sexual selection in human origins, was to explain human races, which he claimed, couldn’t be explained by natural selection. However that might be, human races don’t need to be explained so much as the extraordinary functionality of human speech and tool use.

Raymond Dart drifted in the same direction as Darwin had. In the years after his brilliant analysis of the Taung child in 1925 when he saw that its teeth and posture implied the use of tools “for offense and defense”, he developed the hunting hypothesis expressed in his “Predatory transition from Ape to Man”. A hunter is the essential actor, imposing his will on the hunted.

For me personally, the clincher about this drift was when I found my guess confirmed, that Darwin had edited his earlier distinction between natural and sexual selection to clarify that it wasn’t about externalities. But I don’t think sexual selection or primate fangs are by any means the only elements of the story of human origins being messed up by atheist ideology. Partly through indulgence and partly through the mechanisms of dialectics, I suspect that the whole narrative is shot through with atheist ideology. But I can only see one piece at a time.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3539  Postby Jayjay4547 » Jun 21, 2019 5:12 am

theropod wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:
theropod wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:Predators on mammals crunch their bones to get at the marrow. Dinosaurs didn't have marrow in their bones so there was no point in crunching their bones.


Where the fuck did you get this idea? It’s seriously wrong.

RS


Well Hokay. I thought dinosaurs had hollow bones.


Some of them, like the maniraptoran theropods, did indeed have hollow bones. This fact is supportive evidence that those small theropods gave rise to extant birds. However other dinosaurs had a broad spectrum of skeletal traits. Sauropods, for example, had solid leg bones which helped support their mass. Tyrannosaurs had a sponge-like marrow which saved weight but still served the same function as yours or mine, and hadrosaurs had a marrow structure very similar to extant bovines. You should recall the discovery of possible red blood cells, vessels and fragmented DNA from the marrow of a T. rex. If there was no marrow there would be nothing of the sort to recover.

This is why you should participate in the broader forum, JJ. Ratskep is a treasure trove of good stuff offered freely for your edification. You would clearly benefit form such engagement.

I find your comment about paleo anthropologist disturbing and offensive. Those guys work under the same constraints and procedures as any other paleontologist because, wait for it, they are also paleontologists. If you think the anthropological side is competitive you should review the Cope/Marsh bone wars. Those guys dynamited fossils to deny the other side access.

Anyway, there is always more to learn, and a singular focus disallows a view of the entire landscape.

RS


Thanks for the invite to participate in the broader forum but as it is, I find this site so aversive that i can generally only come to this one site and then only in the early morning. Yes I was a bit wrong to say palaeoanthropologists bad, I was partly just trying to butter you up. but seemingly you are too much of a curmudgeon. When they are in the field they may be under the same constraints as you but when telling their story, I believe they are working in an ideological blizzard.

And thanks for explaining about dinosaur bones. From what you say it still sounds to me that generally, it might have been not worth while for their predators to have developed the means to crunch their bones. And on your pondering why so few complete hominid fossils I still think that is because they ended up almost always completely eaten, like mammal prey species today. It was only when something went wrong with eating them, that fossils were found. The Kranskop skull fell into a crevice from its leopard killer, The Taung child fell from an eagle's claws. The most likely cause for Homo naledi ending up in a far chamber of the Rising Star cave is that they preferred starving there to confronting the predators who had taken up residence in the entrance.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3540  Postby Fenrir » Jun 21, 2019 7:05 am

Hope you're happy Laklak. :doh:

I actually read all that and my takeaway is that it's about JJ's existential dread of the future and annoyance that academically minded biologists might get jobs at institutes of learning, coupled with a perverse desire to blame someone.

Could be wrong, it's very muddled.
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