How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

Spin-off from "Dialog on 'Creationists read this' "

Incl. intelligent design, belief in divine creation

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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3541  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 21, 2019 7:07 am

Jayjay4547 wrote:Please don’t imply that I am lying Laklak; I’m doing my best to explain my position. It is not true that the creation of mankind happened from scratch over 6 days of 24 hours. But it did take place through a network of actors and systems of actors that doesn’t seem to have a clear outward limit either spatially or in terms of time. This system has been hugely creative, it is radically unpredictable by us and we have good reason right now, to fear it.


Creativity implies intent or intellect. A "network of actors" implies intent or intellect. The intent is what you're hiding in your babushka. If your position is that you're not hiding something in your babushka, you're fucking lying, JJ. If you just want to make up your own language, go play with a roomful of six-year-olds.

Jayjay4547 wrote:But I can only see one piece at a time.


Don't forget the other piece: the one you have tucked away in your babushka. The Creator. The intellect. Since you have not successfully hidden it, just stop lying about what you have in there. If you insist there's an intellect or intent in there, it's not an ideological bias to point out that you are prevaricating about it. But you're a fucking creationist, JJ, and you should just own that, and stop wanking away at "networks of actors". There aren't any actors. Just admit you treat it as a play, authored by Somebody, you and your creationist bona fides. Your implicit denial that you're doing this is your Big Lie.

Jayjay4547 wrote:I believe they are working in an ideological blizzard.


Well, that's what you believe, then. Have fun with it, and stop treating your reception as so aversive. Pull your head out of your ass long enough to explain how your belief offers you some sort of advantage in this world. Quite evidently, it does not, and perhaps you've discovered this in trying to get your idiosyncratic belief system published as science.

Jayjay4547 wrote:In the same terms of natural selection, the distinctive absence of long canines in early hominids shows...


Another lie from you, JJ? What a fucking surprise. You have shown nothing of the sort. Your interpretation of early hominid dentition is a Rorschach inkblot test response from a creationist panic attack. Your analysis of data is really stuck back in the 1920s, and the Freudians of that decade would have a field day with your conniptions.

Jayjay4547 wrote:The Taung child fell from an eagle's claws.


You know no such thing, so unless you preface your wild interpretations with admitting your ideological bias, we can call it lying. JJ, why are you crapping your scientific pants in public like this? Having a panic attack, are you?
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3542  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 21, 2019 8:42 am

Jayjay4547 wrote:
Atheists want to avoid interpreting early hominid morphology in terms of a struggle for existence in relation to other organic beings or to external conditions and instead they want to interpret it terms of a struggle between the individuals of one sex, generally the males, for the possession of the other sex. That text is adapted from how Darwin contrasted natural selection from sexual selection in the 6th edition of The Origin of Species.



JJ - this is just fucking stupid ignorant bigotry. Self-aggrandizing, delusional bigotry.

What atheists do or don't do is irrelevant, because its not their job to interpret 'early hominid morphology' and the majority of atheists are just as ignorant about that as the majority of religionists are.

This is where you go into full on tinfoil hat mode.

Atheists simply have nothing to do with this question - you are trying to contrive the old Us v Them mode that Creationists thrive on, pretending that the other side is just equivalent and just as comprised of foibles and delusions as your own.

But science is not atheism, and the majority of scientists over the years of palaeoanthropology weren't atheists - they were religious.

You just don't understand the first thing about science, do you? That's why you're a Creationist.

I'm not going to even bother reading past that paragraph because you're on Auto-Bollocks mode again.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3543  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 21, 2019 8:48 am

And we've jumped straight back on the merry-go-round.

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/creat ... l#p2701463

Spearthrower wrote:

An assertion.

This thread IS that assertion.

So you're just repeating your assertion.

Really, the hundred plus pages in this thread show to what degree that assertion is valid. And the outcome is quite clearly that really all you've got is the assertion, which is why you're still making that assertion rather than having established it.

Every time you find your latest argument (babushka) has failed, or has been shown wrong, you return to asserting your premise again.



Edit le sigh
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3544  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 21, 2019 8:53 am

Jayjay4547 wrote:
Thanks for the invite to participate in the broader forum but as it is, I find this site so aversive that i can generally only come to this one site and then only in the early morning.


So aversive that you spend 5-10 hours here of your own volition every week!

That bigotry JJ.


Jayjay4547 wrote: Yes I was a bit wrong to say palaeoanthropologists bad, I was partly just trying to butter you up. but seemingly you are too much of a curmudgeon. When they are in the field they may be under the same constraints as you but when telling their story, I believe they are working in an ideological blizzard.


Because Creationists care about the origins of humans and demand that reality genuflect to their mythology, but they don't give a chuff about the hundreds of millions of years of the Earth's history when there were no humans, even though that represents an abject failure of their mythology.


Jayjay4547 wrote:And thanks for explaining about dinosaur bones. From what you say it still sounds to me that generally, it might have been not worth while for their predators to have developed the means to crunch their bones.


Thanks for telling me something I didn't know, but I'm still right because I assert so in complete ignorance of everything evolution entails.


Jayjay4547 wrote: And on your pondering why so few complete hominid fossils I still think that is because they ended up almost always completely eaten, like mammal prey species today.


Mammal prey species today are not 'almost always completely eaten'. Very few predators even crack open bones, let alone eat the entire skeleton.


Jayjay4547 wrote: It was only when something went wrong with eating them, that fossils were found.


:lol: :lol: :lol:


Jayjay4547 wrote: The Kranskop skull fell into a crevice from its leopard killer, The Taung child fell from an eagle's claws.


Because the leopard and eagle were carrying the skulls back to their lairs to eat later! :lol: :crazy:


Jayjay4547 wrote:The most likely cause for Homo naledi ending up in a far chamber of the Rising Star cave is that they preferred starving there to confronting the predators who had taken up residence in the entrance.


Whackadoodle dandy.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3545  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 21, 2019 8:55 am

Fenrir wrote:Hope you're happy Laklak. :doh:

I actually read all that and my takeaway is that it's about JJ's existential dread of the future and annoyance that academically minded biologists might get jobs at institutes of learning, coupled with a perverse desire to blame someone.

Could be wrong, it's very muddled.



It's all the things Fen.

But really it's all ultimately a cry of rage and frustration that not everyone is obliged to genuflect to JJ's preferred mythical narrative.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3546  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 21, 2019 8:56 am

But I can only see one piece at a time.


Which is why you see simplicity JJ, and it's an artifact of your own limited capability.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3547  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 21, 2019 9:04 am

JJ stop telling people to call your misrepresentations and mischaracterizations 'lies'.

The thing is, if you make such a misrepresentation once, then perhaps the principle of charity can be invoked - you didn't do it on purpose.

The second time, well perhaps it's just a mistake, a slip of the metaphorical tongue so to speak.

But after dozens of times... it's a lie. There's no other way of saying it.

And it's long before that point where the onus is on you to stop.

Another thing you need to stop doing is telling everyone else not to call your lies 'lies'. Your obligation is to ensure that what you write isn't a misrepresentation of others or of the topic.

Stop blaming others for your own failings.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3548  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 21, 2019 9:53 am

Spearthrower wrote:
But I can only see one piece at a time.


Which is why you see simplicity JJ, and it's an artifact of your own limited capability.


It's Hanna-Barbera's Flintstones, without the artistry, without the humor, but worst of all, without the song.

Jayjay4547 wrote:
For me personally


Yabut, for me, it sounds like "Yabba dabba doo". That's Taung-speak for "Yabba dabba doo".
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3549  Postby newolder » Jun 21, 2019 10:10 am

.
Edit for quote attribution. Now sorted.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3550  Postby Alan B » Jun 21, 2019 10:33 am

Jayjay4547 wrote:
I believe they are working in an ideological blizzard.

Define 'ideological blizzard'.

Why did a Creationist God 'design' the human race without a collective self-awareness that overpopulation will eventually lead to the possible demise of the species (as well as many other species along the way)?
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3551  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jun 21, 2019 10:50 am

Alan you old bugger:

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Myths in islam Women and islam Musilm opinion polls


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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3552  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 21, 2019 1:07 pm

newolder wrote:
Edit for quote attribution.


:doh:

I'm going to have to start paying you commission.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3553  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 21, 2019 1:10 pm

Alan B wrote:
Define 'ideological blizzard'.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

Psychological projection is a defence mechanism in which the human ego defends itself against unconscious impulses or qualities (both positive and negative) by denying their existence in themselves while attributing them to others.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3554  Postby newolder » Jun 21, 2019 1:42 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
newolder wrote:
Edit for quote attribution.


:doh:

I'm going to have to start paying you commission.

I may have become The Inadvertent Stalker - special power: Wizardry. Who knows? :lol:
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3555  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 21, 2019 1:50 pm

Ever since I started taking Neurontin, my brain function has been decidedly weird. I'm so used to how my brain usually works, I don't expect it to keep letting me down like this! :wtf:
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3556  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jun 21, 2019 9:28 pm

Jayjay4547 wrote:
theropod wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:
theropod wrote:

Where the fuck did you get this idea? It’s seriously wrong.

RS


Well Hokay. I thought dinosaurs had hollow bones.


Some of them, like the maniraptoran theropods, did indeed have hollow bones. This fact is supportive evidence that those small theropods gave rise to extant birds. However other dinosaurs had a broad spectrum of skeletal traits. Sauropods, for example, had solid leg bones which helped support their mass. Tyrannosaurs had a sponge-like marrow which saved weight but still served the same function as yours or mine, and hadrosaurs had a marrow structure very similar to extant bovines. You should recall the discovery of possible red blood cells, vessels and fragmented DNA from the marrow of a T. rex. If there was no marrow there would be nothing of the sort to recover.

This is why you should participate in the broader forum, JJ. Ratskep is a treasure trove of good stuff offered freely for your edification. You would clearly benefit form such engagement.

I find your comment about paleo anthropologist disturbing and offensive. Those guys work under the same constraints and procedures as any other paleontologist because, wait for it, they are also paleontologists. If you think the anthropological side is competitive you should review the Cope/Marsh bone wars. Those guys dynamited fossils to deny the other side access.

Anyway, there is always more to learn, and a singular focus disallows a view of the entire landscape.

RS


Thanks for the invite to participate in the broader forum but as it is, I find this site so aversive that i can generally only come to this one site

I think you mean thread.
Also your tale of suffering and woe rings incredibly hollow when all you need to do to avoid aversiveness is to not visit the forum anymore. No-one's forcing you.
Alternatively you could also stop lying so incessantly and consistently.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3557  Postby theropod » Jun 22, 2019 2:23 am

It seems I have achieved the grand status of curmudgeon. There I was thinking I had a few years left in my apprenticeship. It feels pretty cool I must say.

Oh, and just for the record, Tyrannosaurus rex was a bone slicing monster capable of rending a hadrosaur femur (their strongest bone) like you or I would nip a carrot.

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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3558  Postby Jayjay4547 » Jun 22, 2019 6:28 am

Alan B wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:
I believe they are working in an ideological blizzard.


Define 'ideological blizzard'.


Maybe ‘blizzard’ is the wrong term because it suggests confusing conditions that make it difficult to keep a direction. I should have said ‘ideological gale’ to imply being consistently pushed in a particular direction by an unseen force. The ideology (atheism), pushes those who tell the story of human evolution in the direction of self-creation; where our ancestors were the actors rather than the reactors to forces that as it has turned out, pushed them creatively into a symbiotic relation with objects, and later, human speech. And after that, the internet and God knows where from now.

Alan B wrote: Why did a Creationist God 'design' the human race without a collective self-awareness that overpopulation will eventually lead to the possible demise of the species (as well as many other species along the way)?


Well you Alan B are aware that overpopulation will eventually lead to the possible demise of the species. So the problem is really that you can’t instil that self-awareness into the general population, you can’t persuade the masses. Maybe that’s because you don’t have a solution; you are yourself locked into a system; a big train rushing towards the buffers at the end of the track. So that implies, we are badly put together, except maybe for you and I suppose some other ratskeps and you could have done better at least, you can see how we could have been put together better.

That notion that we are badly put together and improvements could be easily imagined, is a distinctively atheist meme, often expressed on this forum. You said earlier:

Alan B wrote:I get the impression that this 'third-rate' Gawd was really an apprentice who was set to work to prove his worth by the Masters of the Universe. We end up with a planet full of design faults - I mean, who would in their right mind place a vagina right next to an arsehole...


This meme might be recent. In their 1931 tome “The Science of Life” the skeptics HG Wells and Julian Huxley wrote “From the epididymis, the spermatozoa pass along a tube to the urethra, a passage that guides them out of the body and which, by a curious economy, they share with the urine.” (p91). So they saw economy in the area where you saw cause for disgust. The background theme to that might be a new level of classic hubris; setting yourself next to God and like a cuckoo chick, chucking God out of the nest.

The reality is rather that we are marvellously made (as Wells and Huxley spent 900 pages showing) because our ancestors were moulded in a struggle for existence with other organic beings and external conditions, that acted with huge creativity. For a couple of centuries the coevolution with objects that ignited in Australopithecus time, has relaxed the tight bounds on human population and energy usage but now the conditions are experienced to be changing and they are going to put the squeeze on us in ways that we can’t agree about yet. As always, the Creator squeezes and we have the choice of learning or dying.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3559  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 22, 2019 6:54 am

Jayjay4547 wrote:
Alan B wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:
I believe they are working in an ideological blizzard.


Define 'ideological blizzard'.


Maybe ‘blizzard’ is the wrong term because it suggests confusing conditions that make it difficult to keep a direction. I should have said ‘ideological gale’ to imply being consistently pushed in a particular direction by an unseen force.


Unseen forces are a big deal in JJ's world, including the creative potential of the biome, something JJ can see, but to which the bad, mean atheists are blind.

Jayjay4547 wrote:The ideology (atheism), pushes those who tell the story of human evolution in the direction of self-creation; where our ancestors were the actors rather than the reactors to forces that as it has turned out, pushed them creatively into a symbiotic relation with objects, and later, human speech. And after that, the internet and God knows where from now.


You see? JJ trots out the same old lie, which is that, in the alternative to God guiding the process, the organisms themselves guide the process. They don't. Organisms interact with each other and the environment, and shit just happens, like differential survival and sexual selection and all that kind of sciency stuff. That's the bitter pill that JJ can't swallow: Shit just happens, including differential survival and reproduction. Reproduction is important, JJ. It's where new organismss come from. The stork does not bring the new organisms. So JJ concocts the lie that evolutionary theory promotes the notion that organisms are guiding evolution. Yes, well: They chose mates as well as fending off felids with their fearsome fangs. Lookit those Fs, JJ! I made a feast of phonemes. What did you do today, JJ? You fapped at us with feeble fuckwittery about honoring our Creator, you creationist, you!

But what compels us to follow your fapping frenzy? Your perception of forces otherwise unseen except by the Wise and Powerful Prophet JJ, bellowing out his warning that the sword of God is raised...

Jayjay4547 wrote:
Alan B wrote: Why did a Creationist God 'design' the human race without a collective self-awareness that overpopulation will eventually lead to the possible demise of the species (as well as many other species along the way)?


Well you Alan B are aware that overpopulation will eventually lead to the possible demise of the species. So the problem is really that you can’t instil that self-awareness into the general population, you can’t persuade the masses.


And so telling a big fib about the creative intent of the biosphere will instill some self-awareness in, um, the masses. You mean the masses who read the bible where it tells them to be fruitful and multiply. You're up against their messengers much more than you are up against science, the theory of evolution, and atheism, which also says that the bible stories are B.S.. Why don't you spend some time on a fundy forum and see what kind of reception you get for your 'creative biome" crap. They won't be nicer to you than we are, but here you are, crying bitter tears about the bad, mean atheists.

Jayjay4547 wrote:Maybe that’s because you don’t have a solution; you are yourself locked into a system; a big train rushing towards the buffers at the end of the track. So that implies, we are badly put together, except maybe for you and I suppose some other ratskeps and you could have done better at least, you can see how we could have been put together better.


So let's all hope that JJ and his BIg Lie can lead the wanderers out of the wildnerness where the gales howl. You say the atheists don't have a solution. So, JJ and the Creative Biome is the solution. Right. Start with the atheists, though, where the righteous wrath of bigotry can do its fine-toothed combing.

Jayjay4547 wrote:That notion that we are badly put together and improvements could be easily imagined, is a distinctively atheist meme, often expressed on this forum. You said earlier:

Alan B wrote:I get the impression that this 'third-rate' Gawd was really an apprentice who was set to work to prove his worth by the Masters of the Universe. We end up with a planet full of design faults - I mean, who would in their right mind place a vagina right next to an arsehole...


This meme might be recent. In their 1931 tome “The Science of Life” the skeptics HG Wells and Julian Huxley wrote “From the epididymis, the spermatozoa pass along a tube to the urethra, a passage that guides them out of the body and which, by a curious economy, they share with the urine.” (p91). So they saw economy in the area where you saw cause for disgust. The background theme to that might be a new level of classic hubris; setting yourself next to God and like a cuckoo chick, chucking God out of the nest.


Oops. OK. Time for JJ to reboot his crap about HG Wells and Julian Huxley as visionaries keeping the train on the track.

Jayjay4547 wrote:The reality is rather that we are marvellously made (as Wells and Huxley spent 900 pages showing) because our ancestors were moulded in a struggle for existence with other organic beings and external conditions, that acted with huge creativity. For a couple of centuries the coevolution with objects that ignited in Australopithecus time, has relaxed the tight bounds on human population and energy usage but now the conditions are experienced to be changing and they are going to put the squeeze on us in ways that we can’t agree about yet.


WTF, JJ? Alan's not going to trade in his Bible for a 900 page re-write by Wells and Huxley who gave you your metaphors.

Jayjay4547 wrote:As always, the Creator squeezes and we have the choice of learning or dying.


Sic semper, JJ, with your unseen force of creativity, the one only you can see, but that the bad, mean atheists cannot, because, er, of the ideological gale. Calm down, JJ. Those are just gales of laughter at your feeble, infantile bigotry and your ineptitude on scientific topics. What's the big squeeze, JJ. You don't know jack shit about what the big squeeze is, today, except that you can feel it coming from the direction of what you perceive as the atheist camp.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3560  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 22, 2019 7:16 am

Jayjay4547 wrote:
Alan B wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:
I believe they are working in an ideological blizzard.


Define 'ideological blizzard'.


Maybe ‘blizzard’ is the wrong term because it suggests confusing conditions that make it difficult to keep a direction.


JJ, if you are interested, there are members here who will discuss various endogenous catastrophes in the history of earth's biosphere. Meteorite impacts are not the entire story of mass extinctions, but you have to give God credit for having a few spanners He can throw in the works every now and then, just to give the new kids on the block a chance. Who knows what opportunities will be opened up by the demise of the humans? Me, I'm hoping the frogs make a big comeback, but it may be too late for them, too. The anaerobic organisms that hang around volcanic vents in the ocean depths are our best hope at the moment. Tip your hat to the tube worms, God's next chosen, well, not people.

Jayjay4547 wrote:As always, the Creator squeezes and we have the choice of learning or dying.


Fap, fap, fap, JJ. Fap, fap, fap. Fap away until your wrist gets tired and you're stuck typing with one hand for the rest of your days.

You should spend some time at the Free Will thread, and tell us all about our overarching choices. You seem to be assuming Free Will, but I would expect nothing less of a Christian creationist. There it is, inside the next babushka. Preach it, Brother!
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Age: 22
Male

Country: The Heartland
Mongolia (mn)
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