How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

Spin-off from "Dialog on 'Creationists read this' "

Incl. intelligent design, belief in divine creation

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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3561  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jun 22, 2019 7:26 am

Jayjay4547 wrote:
Alan B wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:
I believe they are working in an ideological blizzard.


Define 'ideological blizzard'.


Maybe ‘blizzard’ is the wrong term because it suggests confusing conditions that make it difficult to keep a direction. I should have said ‘ideological gale’ to imply being consistently pushed in a particular direction by an unseen force. The ideology (atheism), pushes those who tell the story of human evolution in the direction of self-creation; where our ancestors were the actors rather than the reactors to forces that as it has turned out, pushed them creatively into a symbiotic relation with objects, and later, human speech. And after that, the internet and God knows where from now.

Stop lying Jayjay.

You have failed to provide a rigorous definition of this supposed 'atheist ideology'.
You have failed to provide evidence for the existence of this supposed ideology.
Most importantly you have failed to dress the fact that atheism can't be an ideology, by definition.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3562  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 22, 2019 7:34 am

Jayjay4547 wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote: The whole problem with proselytizing this point of view to me and others who enjoin your assertions in this thread is that a person cannot force himself to believe what you do simply because you claim you have 'argued' for it. That's a strategy fit for selling to a bunch of hayseeds. You lack respect for your audience, but you've made that much very clear.

How much respect are you showing to me Cito? Where have I indulged in ad hominem? Let’s just stick to discussion of the phenomena.


The unseen phenomena, right? The marvelous design of the spermatic ducts!
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3563  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 22, 2019 7:44 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:
Alan B wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:
I believe they are working in an ideological blizzard.


Define 'ideological blizzard'.


Maybe ‘blizzard’ is the wrong term because it suggests confusing conditions that make it difficult to keep a direction. I should have said ‘ideological gale’ to imply being consistently pushed in a particular direction by an unseen force. The ideology (atheism), pushes those who tell the story of human evolution in the direction of self-creation; where our ancestors were the actors rather than the reactors to forces that as it has turned out, pushed them creatively into a symbiotic relation with objects, and later, human speech. And after that, the internet and God knows where from now.

Stop lying Jayjay.

You have failed to provide a rigorous definition of this supposed 'atheist ideology'.
You have failed to provide evidence for the existence of this supposed ideology.
Most importantly you have failed to dress the fact that atheism can't be an ideology, by definition.


Even worse, Thomas, this "atheist ideology" that JJ keeps going on about is really a practice that pushes people in the direction of declining respect for his beliefs, which is really what JJ is doing so much whining about. So, correct, there's no ideology there: Only a praxis, the praxis of declining to genuflect to a belief system that appears to be nothing but JJs idiosyncratic perceptions of life, the universe, and Everything, the creative potential. Not every non-believer engages in this practice. Some non-believers decline to show disrespect for religious belief. If JJ were better equipped, emotionally and verbally, to say what he's complaining about, he could tell us that this is what his problem really is.

Do you see a creative potential? Or do you see creation and destruction going hand in hand so that the cup remains half-full? Do you think we bear a moral responsibility to protect the environment and its biosphere? You can take God out of the picture without needing an atheist ideology to get the job done, but what's left? We get our moral authority (notice I did not say moral sensibility) from our politics, and that seems to be going badly, as well, but maybe that is just my misperception or my ideology. Taken to the bone, ideology IS misperception, and if we're misperceiving, it's the result of ideology, if it's not organic.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3564  Postby laklak » Jun 22, 2019 4:45 pm

As an engineer, I'd say the cup is twice the necessary size. But over-engineering is a thing, look at the laryngeal nerve. The Intelligent Designer must have worked for Apple.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3565  Postby Alan B » Jun 22, 2019 5:30 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:Alan you old bugger:

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Thanks, Scot. Had a nice day out in the Mendip Hills with my son..
Last edited by Alan B on Jun 23, 2019 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3566  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 23, 2019 4:20 am

laklak wrote:As an engineer, I'd say the cup is twice the necessary size. But over-engineering is a thing, look at the laryngeal nerve. The Intelligent Designer must have worked for Apple.


Nice catch, lak, but I'm a physicist today, and not an engineer. "Half" is a valid approximation of "unity", for small values of "unity"; by the same token, unity is a valid approximation for one-half. Just round upward. We physicists like to keep things between zero and one. In this game, zero is the floor, but JJ's apparently worried about things going negative. When the human population is larger than the locust population, things will have gone negative. Less than one locust per person is not a subsistence diet.

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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3567  Postby Jayjay4547 » Jun 24, 2019 7:23 am

Cito di Pense wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:
Alan B wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:
I believe they are working in an ideological blizzard.


Define 'ideological blizzard'.


Maybe ‘blizzard’ is the wrong term because it suggests confusing conditions that make it difficult to keep a direction. I should have said ‘ideological gale’ to imply being consistently pushed in a particular direction by an unseen force.


Unseen forces are a big deal in JJ's world, including the creative potential of the biome, something JJ can see, but to which the bad, mean atheists are blind.


I know plenty of atheists who are neither bad nor mean. The unseen force I was referring to in that passage was obviously atheist ideology, acting on the origin stories told in the name of evolution.

Cito di Pense wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:The ideology (atheism), pushes those who tell the story of human evolution in the direction of self-creation; where our ancestors were the actors rather than the reactors to forces that as it has turned out, pushed them creatively into a symbiotic relation with objects, and later, human speech. And after that, the internet and God knows where from now.


You see? JJ trots out the same old lie, which is that, in the alternative to God guiding the process, the organisms themselves guide the process. They don't. Organisms interact with each other and the environment, and shit just happens, like differential survival and sexual selection and all that kind of sciency stuff. That's the bitter pill that JJ can't swallow: Shit just happens, including differential survival and reproduction. Reproduction is important, JJ. It's where new organismss come from. The stork does not bring the new organisms. So JJ concocts the lie that evolutionary theory promotes the notion that organisms are guiding evolution. Yes, well: They chose mates as well as fending off felids with their fearsome fangs. Lookit those Fs, JJ! I made a feast of phonemes. What did you do today, JJ? You fapped at us with feeble fuckwittery about honoring our Creator, you creationist, you!


I coloured your slur just to emphasise how hard you are working to put me in a position where I can’t continue a discussion, however reasonably I might try to speak. It’s hard to believe that you aren’t intentionally misrepresenting my position. Surely you can understand that I have been arguing FOR the application of natural selection (what you are going on and on about) to the human origin story, AGAINST sexual selection. Atheist ideology encourages origin stories where the actors are human ancestors reacting to each other rather than struggling for existence against external beings and circumstances.

Cito di Pense wrote: But what compels us to follow your fapping frenzy? Your perception of forces otherwise unseen except by the Wise and Powerful Prophet JJ, bellowing out his warning that the sword of God is raised.


You aren’t compelled to respond but you do, while using every trick of misrepresentation and at much greater length than my own arguments. Again, the “forces” I was referring to are those of atheist ideology.

Cito di Pense wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:

Well you Alan B are aware that overpopulation will eventually lead to the possible demise of the species. So the problem is really that you can’t instil that self-awareness into the general population, you can’t persuade the masses.


And so telling a big fib about the creative intent of the biosphere will instill some self-awareness in, um, the masses. You mean the masses who read the bible where it tells them to be fruitful and multiply. You're up against their messengers much more than you are up against science, the theory of evolution, and atheism, which also says that the bible stories are B.S.. Why don't you spend some time on a fundy forum and see what kind of reception you get for your 'creative biome" crap. They won't be nicer to you than we are, but here you are, crying bitter tears about the bad, mean atheists.


I’m not crying, Cito. And there would be little point in presenting my argument on a fundy forum, where the responses probably wouldn’t help the exploration. However Young Earth creationists might come by here from time to time and notice that atheists are only able to keep their end up here by misrepresentations and slurs.

Cito di Pense wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:Maybe that’s because you don’t have a solution; you are yourself locked into a system; a big train rushing towards the buffers at the end of the track. So that implies, we are badly put together, except maybe for you and I suppose some other ratskeps and you could have done better at least, you can see how we could have been put together better.


So let's all hope that JJ and his BIg Lie can lead the wanderers out of the wildnerness where the gales howl. You say the atheists don't have a solution. So, JJ and the Creative Biome is the solution. Right. Start with the atheists, though, where the righteous wrath of bigotry can do its fine-toothed combing.


I don’t have a solution to the crisis that humanity is in, my point is that it is the system of actors involved in it is hierarchically greater than we are, contra Alan-B’s argument that the solution is obvious to the intellect (at least, to his intellect and those of other skeptics) .

Cito di Pense wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:That notion that we are badly put together and improvements could be easily imagined, is a distinctively atheist meme, often expressed on this forum. You [Alan B] said earlier:

Alan B wrote:I get the impression that this 'third-rate' Gawd was really an apprentice who was set to work to prove his worth by the Masters of the Universe. We end up with a planet full of design faults - I mean, who would in their right mind place a vagina right next to an arsehole...


This meme might be recent. In their 1931 tome “The Science of Life” the skeptics HG Wells and Julian Huxley wrote “From the epididymis, the spermatozoa pass along a tube to the urethra, a passage that guides them out of the body and which, by a curious economy, they share with the urine.” (p91). So they saw economy in the area where you saw cause for disgust. The background theme to that might be a new level of classic hubris; setting yourself next to God and like a cuckoo chick, chucking God out of the nest.


Oops. OK. Time for JJ to reboot his crap about HG Wells and Julian Huxley as visionaries keeping the train on the track.


Nope, they were not visionaries, I just used them to demonstrate a deterioration in the position of skeptics over the last 90 years.

Cito di Pense wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:The reality is rather that we are marvellously made (as Wells and Huxley spent 900 pages showing) because our ancestors were moulded in a struggle for existence with other organic beings and external conditions, that acted with huge creativity. For a couple of centuries the coevolution with objects that ignited in Australopithecus time, has relaxed the tight bounds on human population and energy usage but now the conditions are experienced to be changing and they are going to put the squeeze on us in ways that we can’t agree about yet.


WTF, JJ? Alan's not going to trade in his Bible for a 900 page re-write by Wells and Huxley who gave you your metaphors.


Nor will I, but I keep the Bible and “The Science of Life” on different shelves (TBH, partly because of shelf height)

Cito di Pense wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:As always, the Creator squeezes and we have the choice of learning or dying.


Sic semper, JJ, with your unseen force of creativity, the one only you can see, but that the bad, mean atheists cannot, because, er, of the ideological gale. Calm down, JJ. Those are just gales of laughter at your feeble, infantile bigotry and your ineptitude on scientific topics. What's the big squeeze, JJ. You don't know jack shit about what the big squeeze is, today, except that you can feel it coming from the direction of what you perceive as the atheist camp.[/quote


Is creativity a force? Creativity can be observed, by comparing the world today with the world 3 billion years ago. It has been a property in the first place, of large biomes.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3568  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 24, 2019 8:23 am

Jayjay4547 wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:As always, the Creator squeezes and we have the choice of learning or dying.


Sic semper, JJ, with your unseen force of creativity, the one only you can see, but that the bad, mean atheists cannot, because, er, of the ideological gale. Calm down, JJ. Those are just gales of laughter at your feeble, infantile bigotry and your ineptitude on scientific topics. What's the big squeeze, JJ. You don't know jack shit about what the big squeeze is, today, except that you can feel it coming from the direction of what you perceive as the atheist camp.[/quote


Is creativity a force? Creativity can be observed, by comparing the world today with the world 3 billion years ago. It has been a property in the first place, of large biomes.


When the biosphere starts with no organisms, anything more than zero is going to look creative to someone with the kind of God-goggles you're wearing.

What's "creativity" without intent, JJ? Without intent, it's just a movie you're playing in reverse for yourself, looking through the wrong end of the telescope to see something planned when nothing was planned. So fine, JJ, let's let you call it creativity. What would you have anyone else do with your little just-so story?

Is creativity a force? Is 'squeezing' a force? Squeezing is your fucking term! Why do you keep fucking around with it, turning your sentences around and around every time somebody finds something batshit crazy about them? Write batshit crazy stuff and I'll call you on it. You might as well own up to the intent in your story, JJ. It's all over what you write. If you deny the intent, what are you calling creativity? All you have is the movie you're playing in reverse, so the farther back you go in time, the less you fucking understand.

You look at the results and conclude creativity, but that's not how I conclude creativity. What rule are you applying to work backwards as you keep doing? You work backwards for a couple of million years, and then quit, which isn't quite fair to a creativity (you insist on calling it that, not I) that's been at work (you must admit, it's your own idea) for 3 and a half billion years.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3569  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 24, 2019 9:22 am

Jayjay4547 wrote:I don’t have a solution to the crisis that humanity is in, my point is that it is the system of actors involved in it is hierarchically greater than we are, contra Alan-B’s argument that the solution is obvious to the intellect (at least, to his intellect and those of other skeptics).


What fucking crisis, JJ? You've got this notion that creativity set us going, but now you seem to be treating the crisis as exogenous to the system that you insist created humans, for which you proffer your reverence. How do you relieve your so-called creative system of the responsibility for creating the crisis? We're in the system, JJ, not outside it; we are part of the 'greatness', which just isn't looking so fucking great. You're trying to pack in a matter of conscience in your latest babushka. Tell your latest babushka to fuck itself off to where it came from, which is up your arse.

You haven't established creativity. You're just looking through the wrong end of the telescope, and what you see looks wacky to anyone not eager to lap up your self-reverential drivel, namely religious nuts. Your reverence is all for yourself and this vision you got by looking through the wrong end of the telescope.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3570  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 24, 2019 9:23 am

Jayjay4547 wrote:I coloured your slur just to emphasise how hard you are working to put me in a position where I can’t continue a discussion, however reasonably I might try to speak. It’s hard to believe that you aren’t intentionally misrepresenting my position. Surely you can understand that I have been arguing FOR the application of natural selection (what you are going on and on about) to the human origin story, AGAINST sexual selection. Atheist ideology encourages origin stories where the actors are human ancestors reacting to each other rather than struggling for existence against external beings and circumstances.


Your concept of natural selection is totally botched, because you cherry-pick what the agents are. The rest of your effort you spend on looking through the wrong end of the telescope and fabricating 'creativity'. Fuck that noise.

Jayjay4547 wrote:Atheist ideology encourages origin stories where the actors are human ancestors reacting to each other rather than struggling for existence against external beings and circumstances.


That's your same, tedious, fucking lie about the scientific version of evolution, and nothing to do with atheism, at all. The scientific story has organisms with recombining genomes, differential survival of offspring, interacting with an environment that includes other organisms, the weather, and meteorite impacts and volcanic eruptions. I could go on, but you won't get the idea.

Jayjay4547 wrote:
Is creativity a force? Creativity can be observed, by comparing the world today with the world 3 billion years ago. It has been a property in the first place, of large biomes.


Awww, c'mon, JJ. The biosphere started with pre-organic synthesis. Before that, it started with planetesimals. Before that? Well, you know the drill. How can something come from nothing? Anything more than zero is going to look like creativity to you. Just give us the Kalam argument and be done with it. Your whole scam is just fucking religious dogma, and the only creativity is contained in the bizarre distortions you issue and repetitions of the lies you tell, JJ.I think you don't really care if I worship what you call your Creator or not, but you'd sure like me to stop making fun of your furious fapping and long-lasting lying as you serve your so-called Creator with your so-called reverence.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3571  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 24, 2019 9:27 am

One question JJ could ask himself, if he knew how to ask it, is "where do we cease our search for creativity"? Why is he stuck wanking away at the biosphere? Because otherwise, he'd have no straw-man ideology to condemn for hindering a proper view of evolution. The kind of myopia that JJ is exhibiting is evident to more than a few people reading the drivel he writes, here.

JJ could ask himself how it is that water (unlike most substances, and the one essential for life) expands to a solid of lower density rather than higher density. This is important, because the earth's climate system has produced epochs in which ice covered nearly the total surface of the oceans (along with much of the land above sea level), called colloquially, "Snowball Earth". The last one of these episodes occurred during the latest pre-Cambrian.

With solid water denser than the liquid, the ice would have sunk to the bottom, basically stopping the biosphere cold. No pun intended.

JJ will have to fidget a bit to find the creativity in that one, but it starts a little further back in the creativity that is entailed in quantum mechanics of the water molecule. Run, JJ, run!
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3572  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 24, 2019 9:37 am

Jayjay4547 wrote:You aren’t compelled to respond but you do, while using every trick of misrepresentation and at much greater length than my own arguments. Again, the “forces” I was referring to are those of atheist ideology.


The question we might also ask of JJ is: What scientific facts is he not mis-representing? There are some, but it's hard to tease them out of all the blather about atheist ideology.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3573  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 24, 2019 9:39 am

Jayjay4547 wrote:You aren’t compelled to respond but you do, while using every trick of misrepresentation and at much greater length than my own arguments. Again, the “forces” I was referring to are those of atheist ideology.


Your arguments, JJ, are brief because there's so little substance in them. Your arguments have necessarily become much briefer since it was made abundantly clear how incompetent you are in discussing the facts of human evolution.

The question we might also ask of JJ is: What scientific facts is he not mis-representing? There are some, but it's hard to tease them out of all the blather about atheist ideology.

You wrote "squeezing", JJ. To say that you are not misrepresenting evolutionary processes by personifying them is a bit of a stretch, rather than a squeeze.

Jayjay4547 wrote:I just used them to demonstrate a deterioration in the position of skeptics over the last 90 years.


It's not a deterioration, JJ. That's another misrepresentation you've stuck inyo your facile opinions. What's augmented are the numbers of facts you can't wibble your way around. So far, the score is Sicence, a zillion and JJ, nought. It's the proliferation of scientific knowledge, the relevant details of which you discard in favor of quoting stuff written nearly a century ago for some of the bullshit you've piled the deepest.

The apparent complexity of life gives creationists conniptions, but pared down to a simple level suitable for discussing it with you, living organisms are just bags containing lots of coupled chemical reactions. Go marvel at that, JJ! If I don't have reverence for that, yet, you're just going to have to tell a better story.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3574  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 24, 2019 2:31 pm

Jayjay4547 wrote:atheists are only able to keep their end up here by misrepresentations and slurs.


There's nothing I want from you, so there's no 'end' for me to 'keep up'. Correctly identifying your arrogant bigotry is neither a misrepresentation nor a slur. You seem to be insisting on politeness in the face of your abuses, and what you've been doing for the last nine or ten years is trolling a skeptic forum. Fuck knows why you keep swinging your knob at it.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3575  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 24, 2019 3:25 pm

However Young Earth creationists might come by here from time to time and notice that atheists are only able to keep their end up here by misrepresentations and slurs.


What pitiable bullshit you generate to pretend you're the good guy rather than the crank who gets a kick out of fucking around with people he hates.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3576  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 24, 2019 3:30 pm

Go on JJ, tell us that one again about how we're all crazed dogs rending each other whenever you walk past again.

You know, a bit of that sweetness, gentleness and light you bring to these forums and all the people here you elect to spend time with.

Bigotry.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3577  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 24, 2019 3:34 pm

Spearthrower wrote:Here you go JJ... it's a CHALLENGE (cos I know you like them)

Below is a picture of 2 plant pots both containing chilli plantlings.

The red pot on the left contains a dozen or so, while the pot on the right contains just one.

In which pot - red or black - would you say there is more selection pressure occurring?

Image




Of course, JJ doesn't answer which really nails the coffin on his drivel about what everyone else is allegedly doing.

Here's here to peddle his myth and has not even the slightest bit of interest in ever acknowledging his errors.

Self-creation, my arse.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3578  Postby Jayjay4547 » Jun 25, 2019 9:18 am

Cito di Pense wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:

Is creativity a force? Creativity can be observed, by comparing the world today with the world 3 billion years ago. It has been a property in the first place, of large biomes.


When the biosphere starts with no organisms, anything more than zero is going to look creative to someone with the kind of God-goggles you're wearing.

What's "creativity" without intent, JJ? Without intent, it's just a movie you're playing in reverse for yourself, looking through the wrong end of the telescope to see something planned when nothing was planned. So fine, JJ, let's let you call it creativity. What would you have anyone else do with your little just-so story?.....

....You look at the results and conclude creativity, but that's not how I conclude creativity. What rule are you applying to work backwards as you keep doing? You work backwards for a couple of million years, and then quit, which isn't quite fair to a creativity (you insist on calling it that, not I) that's been at work (you must admit, it's your own idea) for 3 and a half billion years.


What is observable is the creation: the observed current functionality of life forms, compared with observed lack of those functionalities 3 billion years ago. Like, bones and brains. “Intent” is a conjecture about something behind the observable. I can’t agree with Paley or with you apparently about the logical basis for it. You can’t deny the observable by denying a conjecture about what is associated with it. Let’s stick with what we can agree about, based on what can be observed.

Of course, I do act on the basis that there is intent in the universe; there is a God but that is based on my intuition. What I want to get over is that the ideology built up to support the opposite conjecture has messed up the human origin narrative in the name of evolution.

Cito di Pense wrote: Is creativity a force? Is 'squeezing' a force? Squeezing is your fucking term! Why do you keep fucking around with it, turning your sentences around and around every time somebody finds something batshit crazy about them? Write batshit crazy stuff and I'll call you on it. You might as well own up to the intent in your story, JJ. It's all over what you write. If you deny the intent, what are you calling creativity? All you have is the movie you're playing in reverse, so the farther back you go in time, the less you fucking understand.


I suppose you intended an underline there, not a strikethough.:) Anyway you make a good point that squeezing (my term) is a force. On the other hand magma can be squeezed out of a magma chamber without intent.



Cito di Pense wrote:[from a later post] One question JJ could ask himself, if he knew how to ask it, is "where do we cease our search for creativity"? Why is he stuck wanking away at the biosphere? Because otherwise, he'd have no straw-man ideology to condemn for hindering a proper view of evolution. The kind of myopia that JJ is exhibiting is evident to more than a few people reading the drivel he writes, here.

JJ could ask himself how it is that water (unlike most substances, and the one essential for life) expands to a solid of lower density rather than higher density. This is important, because the earth's climate system has produced epochs in which ice covered nearly the total surface of the oceans (along with much of the land above sea level), called colloquially, "Snowball Earth". The last one of these episodes occurred during the latest pre-Cambrian.

With solid water denser than the liquid, the ice would have sunk to the bottom, basically stopping the biosphere cold. No pun intended.

JJ will have to fidget a bit to find the creativity in that one, but it starts a little further back in the creativity that is entailed in quantum mechanics of the water molecule. Run, JJ, run!


That’s an argument usually made by creationists; that the laws of physics are tailor made for life and “therefore” humanity, to have evolved. I’m interested and I believe there is Godly intent behind the creation, but I park conjecture about physical laws as way beyond the veil. In theory we can agree about what is observable, such as the influence of atheist ideology on the human origin story.

Cito di Pense wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:I don’t have a solution to the crisis that humanity is in, my point is that it is the system of actors involved in it is hierarchically greater than we are, contra Alan-B’s argument that the solution is obvious to the intellect (at least, to his intellect and those of other skeptics).


What fucking crisis, JJ? You've got this notion that creativity set us going, but now you seem to be treating the crisis as exogenous to the system that you insist created humans, for which you proffer your reverence. How do you relieve your so-called creative system of the responsibility for creating the crisis? We're in the system, JJ, not outside it; we are part of the 'greatness', which just isn't looking so fucking great. You're trying to pack in a matter of conscience in your latest babushka. Tell your latest babushka to fuck itself off to where it came from, which is up your arse.

You haven't established creativity. You're just looking through the wrong end of the telescope, and what you see looks wacky to anyone not eager to lap up your self-reverential drivel, namely religious nuts. Your reverence is all for yourself and this vision you got by looking through the wrong end of the telescope.


Gosh that’s really abusive.

Cito di Pense wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:I coloured your slur just to emphasise how hard you are working to put me in a position where I can’t continue a discussion, however reasonably I might try to speak. It’s hard to believe that you aren’t intentionally misrepresenting my position. Surely you can understand that I have been arguing FOR the application of natural selection (what you are going on and on about) to the human origin story, AGAINST sexual selection. Atheist ideology encourages origin stories where the actors are human ancestors reacting to each other rather than struggling for existence against external beings and circumstances.


Your concept of natural selection is totally botched, because you cherry-pick what the agents are. The rest of your effort you spend on looking through the wrong end of the telescope and fabricating 'creativity'. Fuck that noise.


Fuck this and fuck that hey. What I am alleging is that when it came to HUMAN origins, Darwin, then Dart and then everyone who followed, cherry picked the actors to be members of the same population. Darwin, by devoting 2/3 of Descent to sexual selection, Dart by focusing on his hunting hypothesis where the hunter is the quintessential actor, impressing his will on the hunted.


Cito di Pense wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:Atheist ideology encourages origin stories where the actors are human ancestors reacting to each other rather than struggling for existence against external beings and circumstances.


That's your same, tedious, fucking lie about the scientific version of evolution, and nothing to do with atheism, at all. The scientific story has organisms with recombining genomes, differential survival of offspring, interacting with an environment that includes other organisms, the weather, and meteorite impacts and volcanic eruptions. I could go on, but you won't get the idea.


The scientific version of evolution (which is really the only version of evolution) applied to other species can be used as a bench mark for comparing the human origin story told in terms of evolution. I have no problem with the theory of natural selection except that it is no more interesting than that water flows downhill. What is intrinsically interesting is the concrete history of life past i.e. palaeontology; for instance, recent genetic findings about the treks made by human ancestors.


Cito di Pense wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:You aren’t compelled to respond but you do, while using every trick of misrepresentation and at much greater length than my own arguments. Again, the “forces” I was referring to are those of atheist ideology.


Your arguments, JJ, are brief because there's so little substance in them. Your arguments have necessarily become much briefer since it was made abundantly clear how [colr=red]incompetent[/color] you are in discussing the facts of human evolution.


It’s not me who has demonstrated incompetence on the facts of human evolution. I claimed that one of the distinctive features of the Australopithecus genus (and all later human ancestors) was that they lacked the long sharp canines typical of primates, that those teeth make primates dangerous to attack and this showed that these distant ancestors had abandoned defensive biting in favour of using kinetic hand weapons, which created a symbiotic coevolving relationship with objects. Spearthrower, who says he has spent his whole adult life teaching evolution to undergraduates, claimed that he had posted several pics contradicting me but he declined to post them again, ostensibly because I had tried to bully him but actually because his pic (of a skull with fangs) that could have contradicted my position, wasn’t even of a fossil.


Cito di Pense wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:I just used them [Quote from Wells & Huxley] to demonstrate a deterioration in the position of skeptics over the last 90 years.


It's not a deterioration, JJ. That's another misrepresentation you've stuck inyo your facile opinions. What's augmented are the numbers of facts you can't wibble your way around. So far, the score is Sicence, a zillion and JJ, nought. It's the proliferation of scientific knowledge, the relevant details of which you discard in favor of quoting stuff written nearly a century ago for some of the bullshit you've piled the deepest.

The apparent complexity of life gives creationists conniptions, but pared down to a simple level suitable for discussing it with you, living organisms are just bags containing lots of coupled chemical reactions. Go marvel at that, JJ! If I don't have reverence for that, yet, you're just going to have to tell a better story.


What is really at issue is whether those who tell the story of human origins in term of evolution have been biased by their ideological beliefs. That is, whether those who invoke “Science” in their narrative, speak with God like authority. And I’m arguing that youse all put your trousers on one leg at a time.

The deterioration I was pointing to, was from a skeptic’s position of close and admiring attention to how biological things work (Wells and Huxley, 1930) to joking contempt as expressed by Alan B:

Alan B wrote:I get the impression that this 'third-rate' Gawd was really an apprentice who was set to work to prove his worth by the Masters of the Universe. We end up with a planet full of design faults - I mean, who would in their right mind place a vagina right next to an arsehole...


Svartalf’s response was the funniest thing an atheist has said here for a while.

Cito di Pense wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:atheists are only able to keep their end up here by misrepresentations and slurs.


There's nothing I want from you, so there's no 'end' for me to 'keep up'. Correctly identifying your arrogant bigotry is neither a misrepresentation nor a slur. You seem to be insisting on politeness in the face of your abuses, and what you've been doing for the last nine or ten years is trolling a skeptic forum. Fuck knows why you keep swinging your knob at it.


I stay here because I’m interested in how atheist ideology has messed up the story of human evolution. And in just how extreme self-identifying skeptics can get in denying it, as shown partly by my colouring your text above.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3579  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 25, 2019 10:19 am

Gosh that’s really abusive.


Crazed dogs, JJ.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3580  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 25, 2019 10:21 am

I stay here because I’m interested in how atheist ideology has messed up the story of human evolution.


Still repeating your thesis statement?

Not sure if you're aware how this works, but repeating your thesis statement does not a thesis make.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
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