How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

Spin-off from "Dialog on 'Creationists read this' "

Incl. intelligent design, belief in divine creation

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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3861  Postby Cito di Pense » Sep 10, 2019 7:33 pm

Jayjay4547 wrote:I've got what I think is an interesting point about the influence of ideology on the presentation of human origins.


You've stated here your opinions on the matter of human origins, and you've stated here your opinions on what you perceive as the influence of ideology on the matter of human origins. What has happened, of course, is that no one has applauded. So maybe what you denote for your point is that your opinion is that ideology has had an influence on how much applause you've gotten.

Cry me a river.

Your opinion about human evolution, as a theist, as far as I can tell, has had very little to do with your professed Anglican faith. You suppress most of the details of how your dogmatic faith dictates that the history of humans on the planet is part of God's plan. To really sell your faith, stop suppressing the doctrinal details in favor of some furious masturbation fantasy about a creative force in the biome, because God''s Plan doesn't fly except as dogma. Let's call your Story of Human Origins an artifact of the Wanklican faith.

It's simple, JJ. If the human presence is not a manifestation of a divine plan, what's interesting about it, even just from your perspective? If it's not a manifestation, and it's not in opposition, why do you really think you're not getting any applause?
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3862  Postby Jayjay4547 » Sep 10, 2019 11:59 pm

Alan B wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:... I've got what I think is an interesting point about the influence of ideology on the presentation of human origins. I try to present it as clearly as I can...

OK. Go ahead and list the ideologies and their dogma that have influenced the human origin story.


Alan B wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:... I've got what I think is an interesting point about the influence of ideology on the presentation of human origins. I try to present it as clearly as I can...

OK. Go ahead and list the ideologies and their dogma that have influenced the human origin story.

Well it seems to me that atheist ideology is what has influenced the human origin story, after Darwin. Before that, in the West, it was Christian ideology. So, a dialectic was created in which TofE came to express the opposite of the creation story as expressed in Genesis. Atheists came to regard TofE as both their home and the big stick to hit Christians with. Some Christians came to regard rejection of TofE as their badge.

Is that controversial? Simplistic sure, but you said you wanted a list. I don’t see exactly why you asked that question. What I can see is controversial is my argument that this opposition affected or biased the human origin story as told in terms of TofE. And the example I offered recently, was that Darwin directing the human origin story towards sexual selection, which he contrasted with natural selection as depending on external relations. I claimed that this approach has played out into a piffling dead end exposition on penis size, just when humanity faces baffling and frightening challenges in our relations with global externalities.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3863  Postby SafeAsMilk » Sep 11, 2019 12:39 am

Jayjay4547 wrote:What I can see is controversial is my argument that this opposition affected or biased the human origin story as told in terms of TofE.

That's because you're arguing that people are biased against the moon being made out of cheese :lol:
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3864  Postby theropod » Sep 11, 2019 12:56 am

...and it has been explained to you that science has moved on since the time of Darwin. Modern evolutionary theory allows for multiple selection pressures to act in unison, or in parallel. What this has to do with whether the evidence is empirical in nature, repeatable and a means whereby the theory can be falsified exists is beyond me. After all these many pages there is an abject failure to somehow lay the blame for the entire scientific method at the feet of atheists. Thank you? I thought it was men of faith that refined the standards into what we have today.

Look JJ, biting apes has nothing to do with your blind obsession with atheism in general, and atheists in particular. The way science operates is really what gets your goat, since it doesn’t bend to suit your needs. That need being for you to make atheists, and atheism, look foolish. In case you haven’t noticed the opposite has resulted.

You are not a paleo-anthropologist. You have invested years here arguing with us instead of actually learning at university. You haven’t went on field expeditions, sometimes for months, to search for ancient hominids. You haven’t collaborated with other experts in any real way, and habitually ignore publications that would serve you well.

What is the point? You’ve surely said everything you have to say, as have us evil baby eaters. We see your efforts as a total failure, and frankly this has now become a troll fest for you. We’ve come full circle several times. It isn’t rational to stay in this möbius.

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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3865  Postby Spearthrower » Sep 11, 2019 2:39 am

Jayjay4547 wrote:
Well it seems to me that atheist ideology is what has influenced the human origin story, after Darwin. Before that, in the West, it was Christian ideology. So, a dialectic was created in which TofE came to express the opposite of the creation story as expressed in Genesis.


Yet factually, this did not happen. It did not occur like this at all. It did not happen because of this. It just is not this in the slightest. This is your prejudice from top to bottom, and your revision of history is what makes it a pernicious obsession. You are playing the part of the gnat in the Aesop's fable.

What factually occurred is that deeply religious people spent numerous hours observing the natural world and figured out some mechanism of nature. There are hundreds of examples of mechanisms previously ascribed to the machinations of a god being found to be just nature doing nature's thing without the intercession of a god.

Of course, the ToE is not 'the opposite' of the creation story in Genesis. It's just not the same. It's not even inherently atheistic; it's readily subsumed into your preferred religious narrative as can be seen by the fact (it would help if you ever respected these) that the Catholic Church, representing the majority of Christians on this planet, accepted evolution in 1950 with Pius' Humani generis. The simple way to do this is to say that the creation of Adam and Eve is allegorical, that God created the system of evolution in order to produce diversity, then tinkered with 'His' Creation to plonk souls into one species of hominid. There you go - done. Problem solved. Undeniable empirical reality is assimilated back into the religious creation narrative without upsetting the boat.


Jayjay4547 wrote: Atheists came to regard TofE as both their home and the big stick to hit Christians with. Some Christians came to regard rejection of TofE as their badge.


Again, this is just complete fabrication. It's arsewater.

In reality, rather than the ToE, if you want to pinpoint a scientific finding that generated the most problems for Christian beliefs, you need look no further than the discoveries regarding the age of the Earth. It's both ironic and stunningly ignorant that you've selected evolution to be the hill you die on while blithely declaring yourself an Old Earth Creationist. Far more Christians over the intervening years have made the age of the Earth be their badge of faith, hostile to scientific evidence, rather than the genesis of humanity or other animals.

In reality, you've basically fallen foul of a branch of evangelical nonsense originating in the US, and which really came into effect from the 1920 to the 1930's a the schism between Protestant denominations there came to completion. In reality, the acceptance and denial of evolution - the controversy - is of American theological origin, with liberal Protestants (mainline) accepting evolution, being opposed by evangelical (conservative). The sticks and badges were both being carried by Christians against other Christians, and let's be perfectly clear; it was the religious conservatives carrying the sticks as can be seen by, yet again hard facts, the Scopes Trial.

In reality, atheism has bugger all to do with this because atheism was neither a popular movement, nor a political force until very recently. Atheism in the West may have an ancient pedigree, but it had been made distasteful in civilized society by Christians for so long that it wasn't until post second world war, in the age of the individualism and personal liberty of the 60's that atheism began to become a public force. And it's not like atheists were running round touting evolution as their central dogma because atheism has, factually, fuck all to do with evolution. Even if evolution were shown false tomorrow, it's not like atheists are suddenly going to start believing in your god because it's the belief in your god they reject as atheists, not the acceptance of evolution.

So, as I've stated many times over the years, your revision of history is entirely unacceptable. You do not get to do this. Given your academic background, you know a damn sight better than merely flapping your gums at something. You want to make claims about history, then cite your fucking sources and stop acting like an uneducated clown.


Jayjay4547 wrote:Is that controversial?


No. For there to be controversy, it has to be based in reality. It's just wrong.



Jayjay4547 wrote: Simplistic sure,...


It's not even simplistic. Simplistic would indicate it has some of the details right, just not well detailed. It doesn't have any of the details right.



Jayjay4547 wrote:What I can see is controversial is my argument that this opposition affected or biased the human origin story as told in terms of TofE.


See above. It's not 'controversial' anymore than the shape of the Earth is controversial. Of course, the believers NEED a controversy to pretend that their idea is in equal opposition with an orthodox idea, whereas they're just talking hogwash as are you.



Jayjay4547 wrote:And the example I offered recently, was that Darwin directing the human origin story towards sexual selection, which he contrasted with natural selection as depending on external relations.


You did, and I showed you wrong numerous different ways, none of which you engaged with, all of which you ignored, because you're not interested in what's true, your motivations are more demagogue than pedagogue.



Jayjay4547 wrote: I claimed that this approach has played out into a piffling dead end exposition on penis size, just when humanity faces baffling and frightening challenges in our relations with global externalities.


And consequently you're basically making yourself into the village oaf. Given your background, you have absolutely no wiggle room here. You know better. You wouldn't accept this weak argumentation, poor support, and refusal to engage in widely established facts in a student's thesis, yet you seem to think you're above all that. You're fucking not.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3866  Postby Hermit » Sep 11, 2019 3:13 am

Jayjay4547 wrote:
Alan B wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:... I've got what I think is an interesting point about the influence of ideology on the presentation of human origins. I try to present it as clearly as I can...

OK. Go ahead and list the ideologies and their dogma that have influenced the human origin story.

Well it seems to me that atheist ideology is what has influenced the human origin story, after Darwin. Before that, in the West, it was Christian ideology. So, a dialectic was created in which TofE came to express the opposite of the creation story as expressed in Genesis. Atheists came to regard TofE as both their home and the big stick to hit Christians with.

If the theory of evolution messed up the human origin story, why do millions of Christians - the majority of Christians I'd say - manage to accept that theory while preserving their belief in the existence of a Christian god, you know the supernatural, uncaused cause, creator of life, the universe and everything?

In other words, the theory of evolution cannot be the "atheist ideology" that messed up the human origin story when it is accepted by millions and millions of theists.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3867  Postby LucidFlight » Sep 11, 2019 4:34 am

I just received a letter from the High Council of Atheism. It says that they admit to messing up the Human Origin Story and would like to offer an apology. They say that is was very wrong of them to use the very potent ideology of Atheism to meddle in a story that was fine to begin with. All atheistic adjustments and editorial work on the story will be rescinded and the story allowed to continue on its merry way. Really, very sorry about it all. No idea it would screw things up so much. Honest.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3868  Postby Spearthrower » Sep 11, 2019 9:59 am

High Council of Atheism?

SPLITTERS!
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3869  Postby Fallible » Sep 11, 2019 12:18 pm

You get a special hat.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3870  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Sep 11, 2019 12:24 pm

Jayjay4547 wrote:
Alan B wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:... I've got what I think is an interesting point about the influence of ideology on the presentation of human origins. I try to present it as clearly as I can...

OK. Go ahead and list the ideologies and their dogma that have influenced the human origin story.


Alan B wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:... I've got what I think is an interesting point about the influence of ideology on the presentation of human origins. I try to present it as clearly as I can...

OK. Go ahead and list the ideologies and their dogma that have influenced the human origin story.

Well it seems to me that atheist ideology is what has influenced the human origin story, after Darwin. Before that, in the West, it was Christian ideology. So, a dialectic was created in which TofE came to express the opposite of the creation story as expressed in Genesis. Atheists came to regard TofE as both their home and the big stick to hit Christians with. Some Christians came to regard rejection of TofE as their badge.

Is that controversial? Simplistic sure, but you said you wanted a list. I don’t see exactly why you asked that question. What I can see is controversial is my argument that this opposition affected or biased the human origin story as told in terms of TofE. And the example I offered recently, was that Darwin directing the human origin story towards sexual selection, which he contrasted with natural selection as depending on external relations. I claimed that this approach has played out into a piffling dead end exposition on penis size, just when humanity faces baffling and frightening challenges in our relations with global externalities.

Once again you fail to provide a sound and coherent definition of atheist ideology, meaning that once again the rest of your post is irrelevant wibble.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3871  Postby felltoearth » Sep 11, 2019 12:55 pm

What you are all forgetting is that the ToE is a Trojan Horse designed to deceive by Atheists in legion with satan.

There is even a picture...

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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3872  Postby SafeAsMilk » Sep 11, 2019 2:03 pm

So JJ, why do you think it's a problem that people are biased towards facts? Facts that are, as you say, so powerful that they affect people's thinking on topics that they don't even directly address?
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3873  Postby Sendraks » Sep 11, 2019 2:08 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Once again you fail to provide a sound and coherent definition of atheist ideology, meaning that once again the rest of your post is irrelevant wibble.


From his previous comments I think JayJay's explanation is coherent, it just isn't sound.

JayJay thinks that following Darwin, the analysis of evidence about the evolution of life was influenced by atheism because it caused scientists to reach conclusions about the evidence they wouldn't have reached had they been thinking with a "creator-centric" hat on.

However, as I've tackled in posts months ago, this is purely what JayJay "thinks." He can't actually provide any evidence that this did happen, that atheism in any way influenced the rigour of the scientific process and therefore he can't demonstrate that the "atheist ideology" has he imagines it, actually exists.

We also know, as it has been repeatedly demonstrated in JayJay's posts, is the only reason JayJay thinks scientists could have reached different conclusions because "creationism" is down to his appalling like of understanding about evolution and science in general.

Its just another fine example of theistic circular reasoning.
JayJay thinks this - therefore it is so - if it wasn't so JayJay wouldn't think it.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3874  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Sep 11, 2019 2:10 pm

Sendraks wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Once again you fail to provide a sound and coherent definition of atheist ideology, meaning that once again the rest of your post is irrelevant wibble.


From his previous comments I think JayJay's explanation is coherent, it just isn't sound.

JayJay thinks that following Darwin, the analysis of evidence about the evolution of life was influenced by atheism because it caused scientists to reach conclusions about the evidence they wouldn't have reached had they been thinking with a "creator-centric" hat on.

However, as I've tackled in posts months ago, this is purely what JayJay "thinks." He can't actually provide any evidence that this did happen, that atheism in any way influenced the rigour of the scientific process and therefore he can't demonstrate that the "atheist ideology" has he imagines it, actually exists.

We also know, as it has been repeatedly demonstrated in JayJay's posts, is the only reason JayJay thinks scientists could have reached different conclusions because "creationism" is down to his appalling like of understanding about evolution and science in general.

Its just another fine example of theistic circular reasoning.
JayJay thinks this - therefore it is so - if it wasn't so JayJay wouldn't think it.

My point is that his definition of atheism/atheist ideology is incoherent, not the argument in the post I responded to.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3875  Postby Sendraks » Sep 11, 2019 2:18 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
My point is that his definition of atheism/atheist ideology is incoherent, not the argument in the post I responded to.


I am talking about his definition. It is coherent in that I understand what it is now but, it also happens to be complete bollocks.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3876  Postby Cito di Pense » Sep 11, 2019 2:36 pm

Jayjay4547 wrote:[And the example I offered recently, was that Darwin directing the human origin story towards sexual selection, which he contrasted with natural selection as depending on external relations. I claimed that this approach has played out into a piffling dead end exposition on penis size, just when humanity faces baffling and frightening challenges in our relations with global externalities.


This depends on postulating the external. That's exactly the way you assume your conclusion, JJ. The external you denote is fictive, and you assert it so you can have your creative external entity.

If you don't understand or admit that this type of arbitrary introduction of entities is typical of creationism, then you don't. You need to establish external relations, rather than to assume them. Where's the division between that which is external and that which participates in whatever there is?
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3877  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Sep 11, 2019 2:52 pm

Sendraks wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
My point is that his definition of atheism/atheist ideology is incoherent, not the argument in the post I responded to.


I am talking about his definition. It is coherent in that I understand what it is now but, it also happens to be complete bollocks.

Fair enough.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3878  Postby Jayjay4547 » Sep 12, 2019 6:06 am

Hermit wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:
Alan B wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:... I've got what I think is an interesting point about the influence of ideology on the presentation of human origins. I try to present it as clearly as I can...

OK. Go ahead and list the ideologies and their dogma that have influenced the human origin story.

Well it seems to me that atheist ideology is what has influenced the human origin story, after Darwin. Before that, in the West, it was Christian ideology. So, a dialectic was created in which TofE came to express the opposite of the creation story as expressed in Genesis. Atheists came to regard TofE as both their home and the big stick to hit Christians with.

If the theory of evolution messed up the human origin story, why do millions of Christians - the majority of Christians I'd say - manage to accept that theory while preserving their belief in the existence of a Christian god, you know the supernatural, uncaused cause, creator of life, the universe and everything?

In other words, the theory of evolution cannot be the "atheist ideology" that messed up the human origin story when it is accepted by millions and millions of theists.



What about the missions of theists who don’t accept TofE? Who are growing at the expense of the denominations that do accept it, while others just walk away from accepting denominations into atheism. I admit that some people find the denial demanded of them by groups like the JWs drives them straight into atheism. But less often into the accepting denominations. For Anglicans, accepting Darwin has helped very little.

This is a problem that lies in the lap of the English established church in particular; the legacy of a failure by our forebears back in 1860 and later. All I can see of it is a few loose bricks in the edifice presented to us as human origin story: within-species explanations, denial of the exceptional enabling of humanity, emphasis on random chance. These point to atheists using ToE to feed their ideology.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3879  Postby Fallible » Sep 12, 2019 6:56 am

“Accepting denominations into atheism”? WTF does that mean?
I don’t use the ToE to feed my ideology. Want to know why?
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3880  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Sep 12, 2019 7:24 am

Jayjay4547 wrote:
Hermit wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:
Alan B wrote:
OK. Go ahead and list the ideologies and their dogma that have influenced the human origin story.

Well it seems to me that atheist ideology is what has influenced the human origin story, after Darwin. Before that, in the West, it was Christian ideology. So, a dialectic was created in which TofE came to express the opposite of the creation story as expressed in Genesis. Atheists came to regard TofE as both their home and the big stick to hit Christians with.

If the theory of evolution messed up the human origin story, why do millions of Christians - the majority of Christians I'd say - manage to accept that theory while preserving their belief in the existence of a Christian god, you know the supernatural, uncaused cause, creator of life, the universe and everything?

In other words, the theory of evolution cannot be the "atheist ideology" that messed up the human origin story when it is accepted by millions and millions of theists.



What about the missions of theists who don’t accept TofE?

They don't magically erase the existence of the millions of theists who accept ToE.
Meaning it's not an atheist ideology.

while others just walk away from accepting denominations into atheism.

As atheism has been explained to you many times, I can only view this latest claim as yet more dishonest nonsense.
There are no denominations of atheism.

I admit that some people find the denial demanded of them by groups like the JWs drives them straight into atheism.

You cannot be driven into atheism, only out of theism or never become a theist.

But less often into the accepting denominations. For Anglicans, accepting Darwin has helped very little.

You do realise that making these baseless assertions only further solidifies your image as someone who's not interested in reason, only polemics?


denial of the exceptional enabling of humanity, emphasis on random chance. These point to atheists using ToE to feed their ideology.

Except you continue to demonstrate that atheism is an ideology even after multiple people have repeatedly explained to you why it isn't. So this latest post of yours is just more dishonest polemical posturing. :roll:
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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