How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

Spin-off from "Dialog on 'Creationists read this' "

Incl. intelligent design, belief in divine creation

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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4061  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 09, 2019 12:36 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
This is what I have thought, too. Something JJ obviously craves is being recognized as an innovative thinker, which is why he hangs onto ideas no one else would at this stage, ideas that are manifestly silly. He tries to make it look like something else with all the noise about atheist ideology, which is blocking him from being acknowledged as an innovative thinker, who sees beyond the obvious, the evidence.


Yup, and that's where it becomes perverse. Perhaps if he floated this idea in a kooky creationist community, he might garner some accolades. Yet he opts to try these ideas out here, with the people he accuses of being blinded by ideology to reject his contentions, then explains away the failings of his arguments on that factor.

Even at face value and ignoring how nonsensical this is, it would still represent something equivalent to masochism.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4062  Postby Cito di Pense » Oct 09, 2019 6:09 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
This is what I have thought, too. Something JJ obviously craves is being recognized as an innovative thinker, which is why he hangs onto ideas no one else would at this stage, ideas that are manifestly silly. He tries to make it look like something else with all the noise about atheist ideology, which is blocking him from being acknowledged as an innovative thinker, who sees beyond the obvious, the evidence.


Yup, and that's where it becomes perverse. Perhaps if he floated this idea in a kooky creationist community, he might garner some accolades. Yet he opts to try these ideas out here, with the people he accuses of being blinded by ideology to reject his contentions, then explains away the failings of his arguments on that factor.

Even at face value and ignoring how nonsensical this is, it would still represent something equivalent to masochism.


And then he goes and spoils the whimsically masochistic kookiness by lying to your face.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4063  Postby Jayjay4547 » Oct 10, 2019 1:49 am

Spearthrower wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:
You declared flatly that a pic of a sculpture of an Au. afarensis skull was of a female, “it just is”, ...



Always a bad idea to start a long thread with a lie, JJ./I've told you about this many times./You wrote all those words, and I will never read them now considering you're lying about me to my face.



In post #3308 I asked "On what grounds did you claim that this skull was of a female?"
In post #3309 you said "Ummm...because it IS a female, JJ"


I am going to point out, once again, that you are lying.

If you keep repeating this lie, pretending that I didn't write a detailed list of anatomical traits of female afarensis, I will have to ask the moderators to intervene because this is far beyond reasonable now.

It's one thing to ignore the content of that post and pretend to yourself it never happened.

It's quite another to lie about me and my actions.

You know very well that I posted detailed morphological analysis of afarensis crania from the perspective of sexing them because you replied several times over the dozens of intervening pages to that post. That seals the deal: you know that post exists.

So stop lying to my face.


The paragraph where I recounted that you had said flatly that you knew that a particular sculpture was of a female “because it IS a female” , went on to give a damning account of your later posts on that issue. Here is that paragraph:

Jayjay4547 wrote:
You declared flatly that a pic of a sculpture of an Au. afarensis skull was of a female, “it just is”, that you knew the fossils the sculptor had used. Later your own internet digging showed that the sculpture had been made before there were any female afarensis skulls to model on. And your search on what vendors of that sculpture thought its sex was, revealed that its sex wasn’t significant to them. Not as if it were a gorilla.


I didn’t “pretend” that you hadn’t written a detailed list of anatomical traits of female afarensis. Those were irrelevant to the issue of whether that particular sculpture, made by a sculptor you showed little respect for and for a modelling industry you and others discounted, was intended as a female.

The reason why I brought up this issue was because you jeered at my having supposedly “shown TWICE that he doesn't know a male australopithecine from a female”. Like I said, no doubt an anthropological anatomist could tell an actual female australopithecus skull from a male. Another reader might doubt whether he could tell one of from the other. But that wouldn’t stop him or her from posting arguments here.

In wrongly declaring that I had lied, you avoided the material argument I then developed: Here it is again:

You said that only a couple of hundred people (including yourself, implicitly) could tell a female Australopithecus from a male. That’s the whole point: male australopithecus skulls were notably like the females, they didn’t have fangs or dimorphous strengthening of the skull to take the blows and stresses that come from biting an adversary like a predator.

You still haven’t produced a credible pic of an Australopithecus skull with what a reasonable onlooker would call fangs: long sharp teeth near the front of the mouth with potential to harm the onlooker. Suppose there is an image that you can be confident your fellow ratskeps will accept as displaying fangs but I obstinately don’t agree, that would surely discredit me. But you don’t have it or you don’t dare.


Edit:spelling
Last edited by Jayjay4547 on Oct 10, 2019 6:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4064  Postby Jayjay4547 » Oct 10, 2019 1:50 am

Cito di Pense wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:
Generally, African prey species are well respected for the excellence in avoiding predation...


You have been reminded many times that old, sick, and otherwise weak specimens of prey species are not excellent at evading predation. Why do weak individuals continue to be born into populations of otherwise "excellent" specimens? You guessed it, because not all weak specimens fall victim to predation before producing offspring. How do they manage to escape, JJ? Some species are better than others in the social aspects of this. Sometimes it is just dumb luck, which is anathema to your creationist twaddle.


You haven’t shown that I’m talking twaddle and you make natural selection look like hygiene. “Dumb luck” is just noise; the signal is that some inheritable traits confer greater fitness than others, so that populations naturally flow into the optimal fitness state as determined by external relations and circumstances aka Nature or as it has traditionally been called, the creator.

Cito di Pense wrote: Social bonding and cooperation is a critical aspect of enhancing the survival prospects of likely victims of predation beyond the creative use of sticks and stones in a time long before such weapons were effective without social organization. The likely outcome of a lone individual facing off a predator with nothing but a stick or a rock is becoming the predator's dinner.


On the other hand, a group of cooperating hominins without sticks or rocks between them, would be just popcorn to predators. Alternative prey could sprint like impala, or hang from tiny branches that a leopard can’t reach like a baboon, or stab the predators through with horns like gemsbok or bite chunks out of them, like baboons again, or leave quills in the predator like porcupine. Evidently our Australopithecine ancestors didn’t need to excel in any of those stratagems and yet they not only existed, but were widely distributed over Africa. Evidently, they excelled at keeping their predators at bay

Cito di Pense wrote: Social organization developed long before the cognition of social organization, and persists in numerous other lineages that are not renowned for their cognition. You can't bear it that there is more than one process taking place in human evolution, and that you are arbitrarily focusing on one aspect of this process with your threadbare god-bothering story.


There’s nothing arbitrary about focusing on excellence in defensive hand weapon use as the one distinctive adaptation of our ancestors that preadapted them for our distinctive symbiosis-like relationship with objects and our ability to talk..
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4065  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 10, 2019 1:53 am

I didn’t “pretend” that you hadn’t written a detailed list of anatomical traits of female afarensis. Those were irrelevant to the issue of whether that particular sculpture, made by a sculptor you showed little respect for and for a modelling industry you and others discounted, was intended as a female.


It's surprising to find myself writing this, but it has to be said that this is one of the most stupid things I've ever seen you write.

Did you even think this through before writing it?

The gymnastics you've elected to contort yourself through to avoid acknowledging your error is at parody level.

How do you even convince yourself of this bullshit, let alone write it publicly?

How can the cranial morphological traits of female afarensis be irrelevant to the sex of a replica afarensis skull?

Seriously, what the fuck are you talking about?

As for the strike-through - pure fiction on your part. You need to stop lying. You pretend you're so hard done by and that everyone else is so terrible to you, but you endlessly bullshit about people here trying desperately to disparage them on grounds that literally never occurred.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4066  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 10, 2019 1:59 am

This is why it's clear to those people here who have engaged you over the years that Hanlon's Razor does not apply: you are not motivated by innocent ignorance, but by malicious bigotry.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4067  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 10, 2019 2:23 am

Evidently, they excelled at keeping their predators at bay


As - the very thing I told you the first time you dumped this casually on the table of discourse - does every single other species on the planet, which is why they're here today.

I love how you try to make such a big point out of something so banal. Mind blown, eh JJ?

Every single prey species has evolved strategies of dealing with predators. Very, very few prey species willingly engage in the gladiatorial combat you keep fictionalizing because, as has been explained to you, a prey species has very little to gain from facing off against something evolved to kill it. Winning, in such a paradigm, means 'not becoming lunch' while losing means its death. That's equivalent to playing Russian Roulette, and the way to win at Russian Roulette is not to play Russian Roulette. And that's why evolutionary stable strategies arrive at all these other numerous ways of predator avoidance, such as hiding, mobbing, and running away.

There are a shed tonne of species which employ mobbing, yet don't possess any anatomical traits which represent a genuine threat to the predator alone, nor which possess kinetic weapons, but the point of that mobbing strategy is that there are no single weak, easy targets for the predator to pick off as per how predators actually function rather than the fantasy predator you keep crayoning into the discussion.

What do we know about hominids? Well, for one thing their intelligence allows for a bigger group size. Fancy that! Wouldn't it be shocking if palaeoanthropologists had alighted on this concept at some point and talked about it? Perhaps, you know, over 4 or 5 decades? Wouldn't it be ruinous to your appeals to fiction if this was routinely seen among other primate species which neither possess sticker/stopper technology, nor slavering canines capable of threatening massive felines into caution? Wouldn't it be shocking if you actually knew stuff relevant to the topic after all these years rather than endlessly employing the contents of your navel instead of real world evidence?
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4068  Postby Fenrir » Oct 10, 2019 3:19 am

... aka Nature or as it has traditionally been called, the creator.


No it hasn't. What rot.

Careful JJ, if you get any fuzzier about cloaking your theology in banal sciencisms you run the distinct risk of discovering the Modern Synthesis.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4069  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 10, 2019 3:26 am

It's easy to miss these gems when there's such a torrent of bullshit. JJ's posts are becoming less and less worth actually reading, to be honest, when they're all basically repetitions of assertions he's failed to establish as credible.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4070  Postby Fenrir » Oct 10, 2019 4:49 am

JJ began by making substantive claims and has slowly backpedalled to progressively fuzzier and fuzzier fact-free motherhood statements.

As the rhetoric becomes fuzzier and the claims woolier an inverse relationship between content and length has developed, concomitant with a similar inverse relationship between length and clarity.


A mirror to religion over the ages in many ways, one begrudging backward shuffle at a time without ever acknowledging any enlightenment or change, just increasingly convolute layers of justification and whiny self-absorbed assumption of privilege.

Fascinating really.
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How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4071  Postby Cito di Pense » Oct 10, 2019 8:47 am

Jayjay4547 wrote:
There’s nothing arbitrary about focusing on excellence in defensive hand weapon use as the one distinctive adaptation of our ancestors that preadapted them for our distinctive symbiosis-like relationship with objects and our ability to talk..


You're not simply focusing on the use of tools, JJ. You're excluding discussion of any factors that don't genuflect to your masturbation fantasy of mortal combat as the guarantor of animal kingdom supremacy.

Jayjay4547 wrote:“Dumb luck” is just noise...


It's your ace in the hole.

Don't minimize the value of dumb luck. It's afforded you the opportunity to avoid having been attacked by a hyena. Tell us your stories about how you've avoided becoming somebody's dinner in a place where it realistically can happen by being adept at the use of kinetic hand weapons like sticks and stones. What do you do? You hide behind your computer screen. There are bipedal predators where you live, too. Don't pretend you don't know this.

Jayjay4547 wrote:On the other hand, a group of cooperating hominins without sticks or rocks between them, would be just popcorn to predators.


And how the fuck would you know that? Tell us your stories about how you cooperate with no one whilst warding off predators.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4072  Postby Jayjay4547 » Oct 10, 2019 12:21 pm

I'm getting page 204 jammed up with a SQL error on a line of text containing
r 's your ace in the hole. Don't minimize the value of dumb luck. It's afforded yo'
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4073  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 10, 2019 4:46 pm

Jayjay4547 wrote:I'm getting page 204 jammed up with a SQL error on a line of text containing
r 's your ace in the hole. Don't minimize the value of dumb luck. It's afforded yo'



I'll leave the notion of dumb luck to you as it's pretty much all you've got.

Also, while there are no doubt sympathetic ways to evaluate the break down of your written communication, I don't think I'll lend you any sympathy at this point and just focus on speculating about another form of breakdown.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4074  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 10, 2019 4:49 pm

Dumb luck once: fortuitous event.

Dumb luck considered over millions of iterations: statistics.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4075  Postby newolder » Oct 10, 2019 8:18 pm

Jayjay4547 wrote:I'm getting page 204 jammed up with a SQL error on a line of text containing
r 's your ace in the hole. Don't minimize the value of dumb luck. It's afforded yo'

Still curious as to which browser you use to read the forum, is it AltaVista?
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4076  Postby scott1328 » Oct 10, 2019 11:17 pm

newolder wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:I'm getting page 204 jammed up with a SQL error on a line of text containing
r 's your ace in the hole. Don't minimize the value of dumb luck. It's afforded yo'

Still curious as to which browser you use to read the forum, is it AltaVista?

AltaVista was a search engine that was purchased by Yahoo in 2003 and finally shut down in 2013. If I had to guess, JJ likely used Gopher for all his browsing needs.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4077  Postby Jayjay4547 » Oct 11, 2019 6:38 am

newolder wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:I'm getting page 204 jammed up with a SQL error on a line of text containing
r 's your ace in the hole. Don't minimize the value of dumb luck. It's afforded yo'

Still curious as to which browser you use to read the forum, is it AltaVista?


I was using Firefox but anyway the error was thrown up by Ratskep as a General Error. I tried contacting the webmaster but the email reported his inbox was full. The latest post on page 204 was marked as from Spearthrower I think. I tried to unjam by sending the above post from page 203 but that didn't work. After a few hours it went back to normal including my post but with the one that had jammed it seemingly removed. The text scrap reported as near the SQL error didn't seem to me like it came from one of the regulars so I was sorry to lose it. Anyway I'm grateful for the intervention by some unknown.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4078  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 11, 2019 7:07 am

Jayjay4547 wrote:The text scrap reported as near the SQL error didn't seem to me like it came from one of the regulars so I was sorry to lose it. Anyway I'm grateful for the intervention by some unknown.



How fascinating.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4079  Postby newolder » Oct 11, 2019 7:28 am

Jayjay4547 wrote:
newolder wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:I'm getting page 204 jammed up with a SQL error on a line of text containing
r 's your ace in the hole. Don't minimize the value of dumb luck. It's afforded yo'

Still curious as to which browser you use to read the forum, is it AltaVista?


I was using Firefox but anyway the error was thrown up by Ratskep as a General Error. I tried contacting the webmaster but the email reported his inbox was full. The latest post on page 204 was marked as from Spearthrower I think. I tried to unjam by sending the above post from page 203 but that didn't work. After a few hours it went back to normal including my post but with the one that had jammed it seemingly removed. The text scrap reported as near the SQL error didn't seem to me like it came from one of the regulars so I was sorry to lose it. Anyway I'm grateful for the intervention by some unknown.


Fascinating. It reads like a communication from another world but at least I'm no longer curious.
After a few hours it went back to normal including my post but with the one that had jammed it seemingly removed.

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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4080  Postby Cito di Pense » Oct 11, 2019 7:54 am

Jayjay4547 wrote:
newolder wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:I'm getting page 204 jammed up with a SQL error on a line of text containing
r 's your ace in the hole. Don't minimize the value of dumb luck. It's afforded yo'

Still curious as to which browser you use to read the forum, is it AltaVista?


I was using Firefox but anyway the error was thrown up by Ratskep as a General Error. I tried contacting the webmaster but the email reported his inbox was full. The latest post on page 204 was marked as from Spearthrower I think. I tried to unjam by sending the above post from page 203 but that didn't work. After a few hours it went back to normal including my post but with the one that had jammed it seemingly removed. The text scrap reported as near the SQL error didn't seem to me like it came from one of the regulars so I was sorry to lose it. Anyway I'm grateful for the intervention by some unknown.


Code: Select all
[quote="Jayjay4547";p="2716552"“Dumb luck” is just noise...[/quote]


There is a closing square bracket missing from the quote code so that two " characters in a row appear at "Dumb luck".

This creates an SQL error, as far as I know (I'm not going to test it, but go ahead and try it if you want to give the staff some more work.)
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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