How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

Spin-off from "Dialog on 'Creationists read this' "

Incl. intelligent design, belief in divine creation

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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4141  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 19, 2019 9:35 am

The line taken by Spearthrower is an interesting caricature


As compared to the australopithecine This Is Sparta! that JJ envisions.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4142  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 19, 2019 10:26 am

Incidentally, anyone spotting the same old pattern with JJ?

No, I don't just mean how he asserts his way through all his make-believe positions never managing to offer a single source in support yet expects them to be taken as fact.

I mean how he rejects out of hand anything which doesn't conform to his assertions. Same pattern. He doesn't actually address counter-arguments, just talks about them in a ridiculing tone. No actual challenge to the idea, no substance, not even sufficient interest to ask for sources potentially supporting the position. If JJ doesn't want to consider it, it's dismissed.

So it's a perfect little control drama he's got going where anything he says must be taken as gospel, and he is the judge and jury about whatever other ideas are proposed in relation, and we're just the legs for him to dry-hump.

All very self-affirming and ego-bloating, I am sure... but when your audience has watched you make dozens of elementary errors, it just confirms for them why you are so far removed from reality. Pure arrogance.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4143  Postby Fenrir » Oct 19, 2019 1:35 pm

Apart fron being a bit of a one-hit wonder JJ is a classic in the AFDave mould, and manages to regularly nail most of the AFDave laws.

Afdave's Laws of Discourse on Internet Discussion Forums

Afdave’s First Law: All evidences for evolution are speculative. All speculations for creationism are evidential.

Afdave’s Second Law: One may escape intellectual responsibility on any issue merely by stating an intent to pursue it.

Afdave’s Third Law: If you have an objection to any point I’ve raised, I’ve already addressed it. No, I won’t tell you where.

Afdave’s Fourth Law: Unanswerable questions are invisible.

Afdave’s Fifth Law: The truth of all previously established facts and conclusions are subject to their being convenient to the argument I am presently making.

Afdave's Sixth Law: Any claim AFDave posts on a new discussion board invalidates the refutations of the same claim he has already seen and acknowledged on previous discussion boards.

Afdave's Seventh Law: No matter how transparently pathetic or retarded any of Dave's claims may be they can always be followed by something even more pathetic and retarded.

AFDave's Eighth Law: Any thread where I'm getting my ass handed to me on the original topic can be prolonged indefinitely by the introduction of tangential diversions or an abnormal focus on meaningless minutiae.

AFDave's Ninth Law: A 'troll' is anyone who makes persistent challenges to any of my claims.

AFDave's Law 9(a): A 'blatant troll with a history' is anyone who's been successful at it over the long term.

AFDave's Tenth Law: It's only a quote-mine if I don't use the exact words of the writer, not if I just read his mind and tell you what he really meant.

AFDave's Law 10(b): It is not a quote mine if I am merely quoting someone else's quote mine.


He's particularly fond of 3,4,5,6,7,8 and 9.

Sad really.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4144  Postby Jayjay4547 » Oct 20, 2019 5:19 am

.
Fenrir wrote:

My reference to Imo was indeed a response to JJ's claim that 'creativity' does not occur on small islands, to whit:


I claimed that creation has happened in large fluxing biomes and not so much in small ones like islands.


If we ignore the bizarre and unwieldy language JJ might be surprised to learn that this claim is refuted by the established and evidence-based science of Island biogeography, which these days does not actually refer to bits of land surrounded by water.

Island biogeography is the study of the relationships between area, ecosystem complexity, connectivity and species richness, and absolutely refutes the idea that evolution requires large "biomes", whether they are "fluxing" or not. The simple fact that islands tend to have orders of magnitude more endemics than continents destroys that contention by itself.

"Biome" and "fluxing" are in quotes as JJ's useage is idiosyncratic and largely undefined.


It makes perfect sense that islands tend to have more endemics than continents; what I relied on was that animal species from larger land masses tend to replace those from smaller ones, when opportunity arises. Because the creator on large continents has more creative genius.

Fenrir wrote:
The reference to Imo was simply a connection between JJ's disparagement of islands (basically anywhere that isn't Africa) and his unswerving insistence that implimenting a pre-existing propensity to violence is the (singular and only) factor in human evolution.


I didn’t claim that Australopiths had a greater propensity to violence than chimps say, just that their style of avoiding predation was different, distinctive and hugely numinous.

Fenrir wrote:
Imo's story isn't about evolution but behaviour, no DNA was hurt or changed at Imo's hand, yet Imo irrevocably changed the evolutionary trajectory of her tribe.

Washing a potato is a change in material culture. A change which rapidly spread to Imo's offspring and then to the wider tribe. Washing a potato in salt water changes the entire habitat of that tribe. This sort of change to material culture requires a few things animals are generally considered bad at, like imagination, and communication, and empathy.

Instead of being a forest-dwelling largely arboreal group they are now a coastal largely ground-dwelling group. Basically every selective pressure is now different. Their predators are now different (and largely raptors), they spend most of their time in open ground where they need to see distance, radiation is different, temperature is different, diet is different (apart from the potatoes), movement is different, everything is different. The entire evolutionary landscape is changed.


Hirata (2001) gave this level-headed account, it turns out that the sweet potatoes were “provisioning” by researchers, who also provided wheat, threw peanuts into the sea and buried them, and might have provided fish. And the monkeys reacted to the interventions from outside in interesting ways, including washing the potatoes and throwing sand-wheat mixtures into water to separate the wheat. Here’s a pic of the island, it doesn’t seem to have much “open ground” where the monkeys need to see distance. Basically they spent more time where the researchers gave them food. Below the pic is an imaginary dialogue from Imanshi’s 1952 apparently seminal paper “The evolution of human culture”

SweetPotatoWashing.jpg
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As a layman myself, I doubt they are more driven by instinct than I am, and I would define “culture” as highly organised behaviour enabled by speech. I could point to “Japanese culture” and most anyone could recognise what I was talking about. Interpretation of the world in terms of evolution hasn't been that informative about humans.

Fenrir wrote:
Give them a couple of million years and who knows how they might differ from other Macaques that didn't have Imo.


It’s turned out that monkeys in other places who were “provisioned” with sweet potatoes, also started washing them. Rupert Sheldrake and Lyall Watson saw something big in that, but to me it only shows how bright monkeys are.

Fenrir wrote:
It's not martial artistry that makes the difference, it's being able to imagine something different, to change material culture, and that something different can be as simple as washing a potato./Because Imo didn't like crunchy dirty potato, and later because Imo decided salty potato was even better.


The butterfly effect applied to sweet potatoes. Your prediction that something big will emerge from potato washing needs to wait for proof. But what happened so far is that human interaction with monkeys on an island changed the monkey’s behaviour. The humans, monkeys and sweet potatoes all came to this tiny island from large land masses elsewhere.

Fenrir wrote:
Imo single-handedly destroys JJ's entire hypothesis, though I'm sure he can't and won't see it.


You got me to rights there my friend.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4145  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 20, 2019 8:12 am

It makes perfect sense that islands tend to have more endemics than continents; what I relied on was that animal species from larger land masses tend to replace those from smaller ones, when opportunity arises. Because the creator on large continents has more creative genius.



Image
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4146  Postby newolder » Oct 20, 2019 8:39 am

Jayjay4547 wrote:...

As a layman myself, I doubt they are more driven by instinct than I am, and I would define “culture” as highly organised behaviour enabled by speech. I could point to “Japanese culture” and most anyone could recognise what I was talking about. Interpretation of the world in terms of evolution hasn't been that informative about humans.
...


Image

Word salad + creationist culture => Brain fart.

:popcorn:
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4147  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 20, 2019 8:53 am

Yep, another ad hoc definition JJ makes up because he needs it to be X, not because X makes any sense at all. The final sentence, of course, is a non-sequitur as is JJ's typical MO after writing nonsense.

As a layman when it comes to brain surgery, I am still going to pretend that my uninformed pontifications on endonasal endoscopy are of more importance than those of actual brain surgeons.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4148  Postby felltoearth » Oct 21, 2019 1:53 am

Jayjay4547 wrote:Here’s a pic of the island, it doesn’t seem to have much “open ground” where the monkeys need to see distance.


It’s called a beach, you numpty.

BF28201A-C638-479E-9847-8CBD3559F5BF.jpeg
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4149  Postby Jayjay4547 » Oct 21, 2019 3:58 am

felltoearth wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:Here’s a pic of the island, it doesn’t seem to have much “open ground” where the monkeys need to see distance.


It’s called a beach, you numpty.
Image


Why can’t you keep a civil tongue in your mouth Felltoearth? And what are these monkeys doing on a beach? Revelling in a new environment, thanks to the creative step in culture building by their ancestor Imo? Not really. They are there because that’s where people have been feeding them. In terms of environment they might as well be in a parking lot.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4150  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 21, 2019 6:46 am

Jayjay4547 wrote:
Why can’t you keep a civil tongue in your mouth Felltoearth?



Why can't you stop lying and blustering, Jayjay4547?
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4151  Postby Fenrir » Oct 21, 2019 7:40 am

Jayjay4547 wrote:
Why can’t you keep a civil tongue in your mouth Felltoearth?



Why can't you directly address any actual point anyone makes?
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How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4152  Postby felltoearth » Oct 21, 2019 10:33 am

Jayjay4547 wrote:
felltoearth wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:Here’s a pic of the island, it doesn’t seem to have much “open ground” where the monkeys need to see distance.


It’s called a beach, you numpty.
Image


Why can’t you keep a civil tongue in your mouth Felltoearth? And what are these monkeys doing on a beach? Revelling in a new environment, thanks to the creative step in culture building by their ancestor Imo? Not really. They are there because that’s where people have been feeding them. In terms of environment they might as well be in a parking lot.

Three sentences that mean nothing and one that self refutes. Well done. Are you allowed to use scissors?
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How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4153  Postby felltoearth » Oct 21, 2019 10:34 am

..
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4154  Postby Jayjay4547 » Oct 22, 2019 4:58 am

Jayjay4547 wrote:
Why can’t you keep a civil tongue in your mouth Felltoearth? And what are these monkeys doing on a beach? Revelling in a new environment, thanks to the creative step in culture building by their ancestor Imo? Not really. They are there because that’s where people have been feeding them. In terms of environment they might as well be in a parking lot.

Fenrir wrote:

Why can't you directly address any actual point anyone makes?


I was economically demolishing your argument that creativity can happen on a small island, evidenced by the “culture” evolved by monkeys on the tiny Japanese island of Koshima. See Hirata and others (2001).

If you had actually set out to cite a self-demolishing example, you couldn’t have done better than Koshima because every single actor in the story came from a big place elsewhere. The scientists who fed the monkeys were created in Africa, the sweet potatoes they fed them came from the Americas, the monkeys themselves came from Eurasia or Africa. And the “environment” you claimed as pioneered by the monkey Imo was a strip of beach where the scientists fed the monkeys. Next time I see monkeys going through rubbish bins in a parking lot, I’ll remember your example.

There is an interesting story to be told here, but it’s about the sociology of science; the ability of a bunch of people to persuade each other that they are onto something, if there is a living to be made out of it. It involved calling what they were doing “provisioning” the monkeys instead of “feeding” them: something we all know is a really bad idea.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4155  Postby Fenrir » Oct 22, 2019 5:45 am

Lol.

And "then an ancient ape threw a rock at something and suddenly became human" is somehow evidenced reality?

That's some seriously asymmetric narcissism you got going there JJ.

I.e. ur a numpty.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4156  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 22, 2019 5:48 am

Jayjay4547 wrote:
I was economically demolishing your argument...



:lol: :lol: :lol:

:point: :point: :point:

:eager: :eager: :eager:

:jump: :jump: :jump:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:dielaughing: :dielaughing: :dielaughing:
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4157  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 22, 2019 5:54 am

That heady mix of ignorance and arrogance. It's always a tight contest with JJ as to which temporarily gains the upper hand.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4158  Postby felltoearth » Oct 22, 2019 6:52 pm

From another thread:

The_Piper wrote:Another one with guckies. They marched an aligator off of a Florida golf course. :lol: :shock:
Image


To manage this feat, those geese must be from a biome that has a symbiotic relationship with its tools.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4159  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 22, 2019 6:54 pm

The canine canard is back in full force!
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4160  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 22, 2019 6:55 pm

felltoearth wrote:
To manage this feat, those geese must be from a biome that has a symbiotic relationship with its tools.


I expect the alligator knows those geese are packing some serious woods.

Off putting to any predator! Sure to drive them away.




Out of golf puns
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