How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

Spin-off from "Dialog on 'Creationists read this' "

Incl. intelligent design, belief in divine creation

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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4161  Postby felltoearth » Oct 22, 2019 7:05 pm

:lol:
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4162  Postby Ironclad » Oct 22, 2019 8:24 pm

"Albatross? Albatross! Who you calling a damn albatross!?"
For Van Youngman - see you amongst the stardust, old buddy

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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4163  Postby Jayjay4547 » Oct 24, 2019 8:48 am

Fenrir wrote:Lol.

And "then an ancient ape threw a rock at something and suddenly became human" is somehow evidenced reality?

That's some seriously asymmetric narcissism you got going there JJ.

I.e. ur a numpty.


NUMPTY: Online slang dictionary: idiot, fool

I suppose it is idiotic to take issue with the details of what is meant to be just a jibe but considering that every detail in was wrong, I’m idiotic enough to bite. At least it keeps me on the track of human origin stories.

I never did suggest that ancient ape (australopithecus genus) threw a rock. I’ve pointed out the problems with throwing rocks as a way of keeping predators at bay, especially by hominins needing to forage. Talking of “unevidenced”, you could really go to town on my suggestion that Oldowan hand axes were used more to make wooden weapons than to use as weapons themselves.

Then, about that “something”. I say, they used hand weapons significantly, to keep their predators at bay. They might well have also hit rabbits and baby impala as occasion arose. You know what primates are. But their relations with their predators was what drove them into coevolution with weapons, expanded into “tools”, now anything that can be shaped, like cell phones, houses and Harleys.

Then, wots this “suddenly”? How many times I put up Oppenheimer’s graph of the encephalisation that happened after Australopithcus. Here it is again. Look at the time axis.



Oppenheimer Encephalization Annotated.jpg
Oppenheimer Encephalization Annotated.jpg (34.85 KiB) Viewed 238 times



The evidence is the ancient hominin body plan and the cohort of species they lived alongside of. By a strange distortion, that's where evolutionists don't go when building human origin narratives. Because its' necessary for them to build narratives where our ancestors became human by their own agency; they needed to be the actors in the stories.
Edit: rabbis to rabbits (!!)
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4164  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 24, 2019 8:53 am

Then, wots this “suddenly”? How many times I put up Oppenheimer’s graph of the encephalisation that happened after Australopithcus. Here it is again.



Never?

Never before?

This is the first time?

Perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps you put it in one of those numerous posts where you started with a blatant lie and consequently I ignored the rest of your post.

It also has nothing to do with anything you've said, and the tiniest little overlap contradicts your position.


The evidence is the ancient hominin body plan and the cohort of species they lived alongside of.


Now try an actual sentence.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4165  Postby Fenrir » Oct 24, 2019 11:12 am

Jayjay4547 wrote:

NUMPTY: Online slang dictionary: idiot, fool

I suppose it is idiotic to take issue with the details of what is meant to be just a jibe but considering that every detail in was wrong, I’m idiotic enough to bite. At least it keeps me on the track of human origin stories.


If you don't wish to be ridiculed then don't be ridiculous.

Or keep repeating the moronic strawmen and evidence-free assertions.

Entirely up to you.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4166  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 24, 2019 6:01 pm

I think we know where that's going.

JJ's go-to response is 'hold my beer'.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4167  Postby Jayjay4547 » Oct 25, 2019 12:28 am

Fenrir wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:

NUMPTY: Online slang dictionary: idiot, fool

I suppose it is idiotic to take issue with the details of what is meant to be just a jibe but considering that every detail in was wrong, I’m idiotic enough to bite. At least it keeps me on the track of human origin stories.


If you don't wish to be ridiculed then don't be ridiculous.

Or keep repeating the moronic strawmen and evidence-free assertions.

Entirely up to you.


You cited monkeys on a small Japanese island acquiring a habit of washing sweet potatoes fed to them by scientists, as clinching argument that creative adaptations can happen on small islands. I pointed out that all the actors involved in that story came from other bigger places: the monkeys, the scientists and the potatoes. It seems those scientists don't even sleep on the island. Instead of taking me up on that you called me an idiot or fool.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4168  Postby Fenrir » Oct 25, 2019 2:06 am

Jayjay4547 wrote:
Fenrir wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:

NUMPTY: Online slang dictionary: idiot, fool

I suppose it is idiotic to take issue with the details of what is meant to be just a jibe but considering that every detail in was wrong, I’m idiotic enough to bite. At least it keeps me on the track of human origin stories.


If you don't wish to be ridiculed then don't be ridiculous.

Or keep repeating the moronic strawmen and evidence-free assertions.

Entirely up to you.


You cited monkeys on a small Japanese island acquiring a habit of washing sweet potatoes fed to them by scientists, as clinching argument that creative adaptations can happen on small islands. I pointed out that all the actors involved in that story came from other bigger places: the monkeys, the scientists and the potatoes. It seems those scientists don't even sleep on the island. Instead of taking me up on that you called me an idiot or fool.


So what you're saying is that all this "agency external to themselves" malarky is only valid when deployed in defence if your own hypotheses? That Imo's achievements aren't valid because they weren't entirely and internally self-created, in some strange reversal of JJ's standard strawman recasting of evolutionary science? That consistency is not desirable in JJ land?

Funny that.

So these people took a well defined situation, monkeys on an island, where a single variable had been changed, provision of food, and observed how that change affected behaviour and material culture.

Funnily enough that is a process commonly referred to as "science". The idea being that changing a single variable enables objective comparisons.

And no, the result was not that "creative adaptations can happen on small islands". The result was that primates are capable of innovation. Behavioural innovation sufficient to significantly change material culture. In the greater scheme of things it's really not an earth-shattering discovery, but then these people weren't numpties trying to support the ridiculous contention that science was intentionally misrepresented for 200 years in order to promote a subversive ideology.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4169  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 25, 2019 4:55 am

Jayjay4547 wrote:
You cited monkeys on a small Japanese island acquiring a habit of washing sweet potatoes fed to them by scientists, as clinching argument that creative adaptations can happen on small islands. I pointed out that all the actors involved in that story came from other bigger places: the monkeys, the scientists and the potatoes. It seems those scientists don't even sleep on the island. Instead of taking me up on that you called me an idiot or fool.



:lol: :lol: :lol:

You STILL think that there's something of value to be had in this point.

You really are abjectly clueless.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4170  Postby Jayjay4547 » Oct 26, 2019 6:06 am

Fenrir wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:

You cited monkeys on a small Japanese island acquiring a habit of washing sweet potatoes fed to them by scientists, as clinching argument that creative adaptations can happen on small islands. I pointed out that all the actors involved in that story came from other bigger places: the monkeys, the scientists and the potatoes. It seems those scientists don't even sleep on the island. Instead of taking me up on that you called me an idiot or fool.


So what you're saying is that all this "agency external to themselves" malarky is only valid when deployed in defence if your own hypotheses? That Imo's achievements aren't valid because they weren't entirely and internally self-created, in some strange reversal of JJ's standard strawman recasting of evolutionary science? That consistency is not desirable in JJ land?/Funny that.


Surely the monkeys on Koshima island did react to an agency external to themselves when they were fed sweet potatoes by visiting scientists. And surely Imo’s achievement in washing the potatoes in nearby water, and the rest of the troop picking up that habit, were also valid. (How could they not be “valid”?). But those events had nothing to do with the point you claimed to be disproving: that small islands have small creativity. Your example failed precisely because all the actors came from bigger places elsewhere: the scientists, the monkeys and the potatoes. The scenario might as well have been played out on a parking lot and that wouldn’t prove that parking lots are creative.

Fenrir wrote: So these people took a well defined situation, monkeys on an island, where a single variable had been changed, provision of food, and observed how that change affected behaviour and material culture.

Funnily enough that is a process commonly referred to as "science". The idea being that changing a single variable enables objective comparisons.


Asquith(1989) reviewed the practice of “provisioning primates” without saying that the intention was ever to change one variable. One intention was simply to give terrestrial humans access to arboreal primates.

Fenrir wrote: And no, the result was not that "creative adaptations can happen on small islands".


But you said that “My reference to Imo was indeed a response to JJ's claim that 'creativity' does not occur on small islands Imo proved the counter claim:”

Fenrir wrote: The result was that primates are capable of innovation. Behavioural innovation sufficient to significantly change material culture. In the greater scheme of things it's really not an earth-shattering discovery


Sure, it did show that. Not that anyone should have doubted the innovation monkeys are capable of. How about a mother vervet pushing her baby through burglar bars to get at fruit in the kitchen? That even goes against a mother’s instincts.

Fenrir wrote: but then these people weren't numpties trying to support the ridiculous contention that science was intentionally misrepresented for 200 years in order to promote a subversive ideology.


You aren’t going to get closer to the truth about the influence of ideology on human origin narratives by calling me an idiot or by blatantly misrepresenting what I argue. For the record, there was no intentional misrepresentation by Darwin. He honestly believed that it was reasonable to devote 2/3 of Descent of Man to a review of sexual selection in nature and its relevance to human evolution. By doing that he started a trend towards telling the human origin narrative in terms of interactions with other humans. The inconvenient truth in that narrative was discovery nearly a century ago, of the genus Australopithecus; ancestors that can only be explained by their relationships with other species, specifically their predators.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4171  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 26, 2019 6:51 am

Here we are with another object example of cognitive bias: Jayjay4547s Demon
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4172  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 26, 2019 6:53 am

The inconvenient truth in that narrative was discovery nearly a century ago, of the genus Australopithecus; ancestors that can only be explained by their relationships with other species, specifically their predators.


Ignorant bullshit. Go learn stuff: stuff good.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4173  Postby Jayjay4547 » Oct 26, 2019 7:36 am

Spearthrower wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:
There you supported Spearthrower’s absurd argument that whereas there would have been very little to gain in Australopithecines “facing off” against their predators using hand weapons, it was quite feasible that they “mobbed” their predators without hand weapons.


You have two choices JJ.

You either face a hungry leopard alone with a stick in your hand, or you face a hungry leopard with 15 of your fellows by your side.

Which do you choose?

I mean, assuming you can tell the truth or fact from fiction for long enough to respond.


I would actually have a third choice: facing a hungry leopard with 15 of my fellows by my side, all of us with sticks.

The optimising dynamic in that scenario for the hominins included increasing their active cooperation, minimising the number that could frustrate the leopard and optimising the effectiveness of their sticks.


Spearthrower wrote:

They could, of course, climb trees. And leopards, as we've already seen many times, are ambush predators which don't behave in the way you imagine on their behalf. Leopards don't actually typically climb trees to hunt baboons because that would be very silly. A baboon weighs only a third of a leopard and is far better adapted to climbing trees. A leopard that climbs up the trunk of a tree is going to quickly find that the baboon has either a) moved out to thinner branches that cannot bear the leopard's weight or b) has run along a branch and jumped to another tree.


In this video which I have put up a few times on this forum, a leopard openly hunts a single baboon in a tree, who hangs onto a thin branch, but the leopard is prepared to take a fall, catching the baboon on the way down and killing it on the ground.



In this video a leopard openly hunts and kills a much smaller monkey in a tree, also demonstrating great climbing skills and determination.



Busse (1980) observed this:

When leopards attack a baboon roost they may remain at the roost for long intervals, and sometimes for the entire night. Two kills appeared to have been made at least an hour after leopards first attacked the roost. Thus, surprise is not a necessary element of successful attack, although one kill appeared to have been made in surprise.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4174  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 26, 2019 7:54 am

I would actually have a third choice: facing a hungry leopard with 15 of my fellows by my side, all of us with sticks.


So in other words, as usual you refuse to admit how stupid your arguments are and need to flee their ramifications rather than honestly acknowledging your errors.

Got it.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4175  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 26, 2019 7:58 am

In this video which I have put up a few times on this forum, a leopard openly hunts a single baboon in a tree, who hangs onto a thin branch, but the leopard is prepared to take a fall, catching the baboon on the way down and killing it on the ground.


Cool dude. I found a B100 note on the floor yesterday, therefore no one ever needs work again - just find B100 notes on the floor and you'll be fine.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4176  Postby zoon » Oct 26, 2019 3:36 pm

Jayjay4547 wrote:.....
In this video which I have put up a few times on this forum, a leopard openly hunts a single baboon in a tree, who hangs onto a thin branch, but the leopard is prepared to take a fall, catching the baboon on the way down and killing it on the ground.




I'm not clear how this video supports your argument that baboons use their large canine teeth to see off leopards? If baboons can thrive in spite of occasional predation by climbing cats, I see no reason why the same could not have been true of australopithecines?

As Spearthrower has said, australopithecines probably mobbed smaller predators (like leopards) in the same way that chimpanzees do, perhaps throwing things slightly more accurately, but most of the time they would presumably have used the same strategy as baboons and chimpanzees: keeping a wary eye out and staying clear.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4177  Postby zoon » Oct 26, 2019 3:39 pm

Jayjay4547 wrote:…….
I never have said that the australopithecines’ weapon use needed some sort of forethought from a creator, because I wouldn’t go that far in a discussion with you or even with myself. I argue that the rejection of that notion led Dart and his successors in science, away from seeing obvious evidence of preadaptation for speech in the human origin narrative. You are very welcome to interpret the concept of preadaptation any way you like. It wasn't invented by creationists.

Not to seem to be ducking and diving on the issue of forethought and design; I admit I am a fellow traveller with classic Creationists, being grateful that they have created public space for skepticism about science. But I don’t think we have the vocabulary for describing the human condition and words like “design” and “purpose” are way out of our league. I couldn’t go better than Darwin’s disclaimer “A dog might as well speculate on the mind of Newton”. He was speaking from a position of doubt but a theist can say the same thing with sincerity. Isaiah 55 8-9 (NIV)

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the LORD.
9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts

My own belief is that something big is going down, it’s very dangerous but that’s alright.

The existence of God is surely the elephant in the room, but it is stomping on everyone, scientist as much as layman.

It does seem to me that you are “ducking and diving on the issue of forethought and design”. You say above that you would not go so far as to claim that a creator used forethought to endow australopithecines with their (hypothetical) weapons, but at the same time you wish to keep the word “preadaptation”, as far as I can tell, specifically because it is indeed “teleologically loaded”. You do not wish to remove the teleology by switching to the term “exaptation”.

You appear to be saying that the creator is timeless, so their activities would not count as forethought from their point of view. However, within the limits of our time-bound understanding, forethought is how the creator’s intervention would appear, unless you are also saying that the creator is taking pains to do nothing which could not have happened through evolution by natural selection of random mutations.

Is this what you are claiming: that the creator has guided human evolution, particularly at the australopithecine stage, but that the creator has also achieved this guidance without at any point altering the course of evolution by natural selection?
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4178  Postby Alan B » Oct 26, 2019 4:59 pm

Obviously giving thanks to Jebus...

I have NO BELIEF in the existence of a God or gods. I do not have to offer evidence nor do I have to determine absence of evidence because I do not ASSERT that a God does or does not or gods do or do not exist.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4179  Postby Cito di Pense » Oct 26, 2019 7:39 pm

Jayjay4547 wrote:
Not to seem to be ducking and diving on the issue of forethought and design; I admit I am a fellow traveller with classic Creationists, being grateful that they have created public space for skepticism about science. But I don’t think we have the vocabulary for describing the human condition and words like “design” and “purpose” are way out of our league. I couldn’t go better than Darwin’s disclaimer “A dog might as well speculate on the mind of Newton”. He was speaking from a position of doubt but a theist can say the same thing with sincerity. Isaiah 55 8-9 (NIV)

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the LORD.
9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts

My own belief is that something big is going down, it’s very dangerous but that’s alright.

The existence of God is surely the elephant in the room, but it is stomping on everyone, scientist as much as layman.


The author of that verse (translated as you give it to us) didn't know anything about australopithecines or preadaptation. Why do you think we need all that blather, now? Why don't the verses of Isaiah suffice any longer? Has too much stomping been going on?

It's not that I don't understand, as long as something big is going down, slowly winding out the tale to suit the times. We my not be supplying the vocabulary you need for describing the human condition, but you are sure arranging the vocabulary we do have at our disposal in new and fascinating ways, to wit: "Something big is going down, it's very dangerous but that's alright."

So glad to hear you grant that it's alright with you. Fuck knows what the Creator would do without your good graces, otherwise known as "narcissistic babbling". Why not go whole-hog on creationism, and declare that something big has ALWAYS ALREADY been going down? We don't have the vocabulary for stating the question properly, but I've heard the answer is the same answer as for the question "what is 6 times 7?"
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4180  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 27, 2019 5:27 am

It's just the uncommon descent style trope of atheistic biology teetering before the fall, and noble thinkers like JJ are the ones ready to topple it.

Shame none of them ever manage to do any real work and think that they can achieve this through creative application of poetic phrases.
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