How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

Spin-off from "Dialog on 'Creationists read this' "

Incl. intelligent design, belief in divine creation

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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4961  Postby Cito di Pense » Jan 14, 2020 3:15 pm

Hermit wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
Hermit wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:Given that there is a self-serving atheist ideology...

...the question arises in what way a theist ideology is not equally self-serving.

What ideology is not self-serving? Altruism? Perish the thought.

Are you, of all people, equating theist ideologies with altruism now?


Only pointing out similarity, in their self-serving aspect. For one, theist ideologies are humanist ideologies.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4962  Postby Jayjay4547 » Jan 15, 2020 3:28 am

Hermit wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:I argue that ideologies are grounded on very simple crude concepts. For example, Marxist ideology was based on the simple belief that oppression of the workers was a bad thing and good would inevitably triumph.


And theist ideology is based on the even cruder and simpler concept of the existence of a of an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent creator. Worse, it is fundamentally grounded on a contradiction: Everything must have a cause. God is not caused. The claims theist ideology makes regarding their gods' omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence too is beset by contradictions.

Theist ideology then goes through unceasing mental acrobatics and contortions in order to argue why their ideology is not contradictory. Examples: Ontological arguments are proposed (why the existence of an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent creator is a logical necessity). A multitude of ad hoc theories are added to save the claims that god answers prayers, "intelligent design" is perfect, etc.

Worst of all, there is no testable evidence for the various omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent gods that atheist ideologies have proposed to exist over time. Theist ideology even goes so far as to deny the necessity of empirical evidence. The ultimate arbiter of what is true, according to theist ideology, is faith ("the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen") and the vaguely defined "personal experience".


It seems to me that religions are based on a feeling that we are embedded part way up a hierarchy in terms of what we can control. Various seers, prophets and their social movements have represented the upper interface of this hierarchy in different ways, often highly elaborated as in your terms “omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent” above. My own belief is that these efforts to paint the ceiling are more than just hot air.

If atheist ideology is self-serving and what makes atheists as happy to be atheists as pigs in shit, then theist ideology would be notions like, that one’s own sect is chosen and people of other or no belief are in the outer darkness, heading for trouble in an afterlife, will not be rewarded and are just plain bad people.

If ideology is narrowly defined like that, it is basically relational; it grows when there are opposing groups.

Hermit wrote: And this theist ideology is the basis of which you, Jayjay4547, argue "how atheist ideology messed up the human origin story". This is truly laughable, made even more laughable by the fact that in all the years you've banged that drum you have never once defined the target of your objections even though you were asked to do so many times.


Nah, you just haven’t taken in my attempts to map the effects of atheist ideology on the human origin story. In the posts above, I argued that Professor Roberts told a human origin story in which there was practically no discussion of relationships between species, when those relationships are the fingers so to speak, of this upper interface in the hierarchy. Instead of delving into that argument, you are trying to shut it out by disclaiming an atheist ideology in the first place.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4963  Postby Fenrir » Jan 15, 2020 4:07 am

JJ wrote:It seems to me that religions are based on a feeling that we are embedded part way up a hierarchy in terms of what we can control


Which brings us nicely back to page 1 of this thread.

Got anything more than "feelings"*

No. Thought not.






*not implying the rest of that sentence is other than Chopraesque bullshit, this post just isn't about that. It's bullshit all the way down. Infinite bullshit. Simply impossible to chase it all down in the available time.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4964  Postby Svartalf » Jan 15, 2020 4:28 am

OK, is it really worth it not discussing anything meaningful but railing at JJ's inane and mendacious ranting? would it not be preferable to isolate this thread in a bin area of the boards and stop posting there at all?
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4965  Postby Hermit » Jan 15, 2020 5:03 am

Jayjay4547 wrote:
Hermit wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:I argue that ideologies are grounded on very simple crude concepts. For example, Marxist ideology was based on the simple belief that oppression of the workers was a bad thing and good would inevitably triumph.


And theist ideology is based on the even cruder and simpler concept of the existence of a of an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent creator. Worse, it is fundamentally grounded on a contradiction: Everything must have a cause. God is not caused. The claims theist ideology makes regarding their gods' omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence too is beset by contradictions.

Theist ideology then goes through unceasing mental acrobatics and contortions in order to argue why their ideology is not contradictory. Examples: Ontological arguments are proposed (why the existence of an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent creator is a logical necessity). A multitude of ad hoc theories are added to save the claims that god answers prayers, "intelligent design" is perfect, etc.

Worst of all, there is no testable evidence for the various omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent gods that atheist ideologies have proposed to exist over time. Theist ideology even goes so far as to deny the necessity of empirical evidence. The ultimate arbiter of what is true, according to theist ideology, is faith ("the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen") and the vaguely defined "personal experience".

It seems to me that religions are based on a feeling...

Yes indeed. You are right. Religions are based on a feeling. And I have described the religious ideology that feeling is based on.

Jayjay4547 wrote:
Hermit wrote: And this theist ideology is the basis of which you, Jayjay4547, argue "how atheist ideology messed up the human origin story". This is truly laughable, made even more laughable by the fact that in all the years you've banged that drum you have never once defined the target of your objections even though you were asked to do so many times.

Nah, you just haven’t taken in my attempts to map the effects of atheist ideology on the human origin story.

Actually, I have taken in your attempts to map the effects of atheist ideology on the human origin story, but that's neither here nor there. The issue is that you have tried to argue "how atheist ideology messed up the human origin story", or as you just put it now, attempted "to map the effects of atheist ideology on the human origin story", for years without ever once defining the target of your objections even though you were asked to do so many times. You can't deny that. When I asked you to define "atheist ideology" a few months ago you claimed to "have obeyed similar asks many times only to find them used as a way to block what I was trying to describe". The trouble with that statement is that you were unable to point to the posts in which you have defined "atheist ideology" for an obvious reason: they don't exist. I invite you to prove me wrong.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4966  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 15, 2020 5:15 am

Jayjay4547 wrote:
Nah, you just haven’t taken in my attempts to map the effects of atheist ideology on the human origin story. In the posts above, I argued that Professor Roberts told a human origin story in which there was practically no discussion of relationships between species, when those relationships are the fingers so to speak, of this upper interface in the hierarchy. Instead of delving into that argument, you are trying to shut it out by disclaiming an atheist ideology in the first place.



No you didn't.

An argument is a series of related premises intended to determine the truth of a particular position or statement.

You simply made declarations without offering any support, any reasoning, or any attempt at convincing other than your declaration.

You've also failed to establish an atheist ideology after 5 years and a hundred thousand words - don't expect others to pick up the slack for you.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4967  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 15, 2020 5:19 am

Svartalf wrote:OK, is it really worth it not discussing anything meaningful but railing at JJ's inane and mendacious ranting? would it not be preferable to isolate this thread in a bin area of the boards and stop posting there at all?


It's already in the bin: Creationism
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4968  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 15, 2020 5:23 am

It seems to me that religions are based on a feeling that we are embedded part way up a hierarchy in terms of what we can control. Various seers, prophets and their social movements have represented the upper interface of this hierarchy in different ways, often highly elaborated as in your terms “omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent” above. My own belief is that these efforts to paint the ceiling are more than just hot air.



It seems to me that God results from unique chaos so the future transforms personal potentiality otherwise death is inherent in cosmic neural networks. Atheist ideology denies that consciousness is inextricably connected to mortal space time events and wants to minimize the fact that interdependence regulates exponential observations. My own belief is that true identity is a modality of the door of balance.


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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4969  Postby Fenrir » Jan 15, 2020 6:20 am

Svartalf wrote:OK, is it really worth it not discussing anything meaningful but railing at JJ's inane and mendacious ranting? would it not be preferable to isolate this thread in a bin area of the boards and stop posting there at all?



Is there anything meaningful in JJ's effluent to discuss?
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4970  Postby Svartalf » Jan 15, 2020 6:30 am

Fenrir wrote:
Svartalf wrote:OK, is it really worth it not discussing anything meaningful but railing at JJ's inane and mendacious ranting? would it not be preferable to isolate this thread in a bin area of the boards and stop posting there at all?



Is there anything meaningful in JJ's effluent to discuss?

is discuss a kind of flushing sound?
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4971  Postby Fenrir » Jan 15, 2020 6:51 am

Svartalf wrote:
Fenrir wrote:
Svartalf wrote:OK, is it really worth it not discussing anything meaningful but railing at JJ's inane and mendacious ranting? would it not be preferable to isolate this thread in a bin area of the boards and stop posting there at all?



Is there anything meaningful in JJ's effluent to discuss?

is discuss a kind of flushing sound?


So how about until JJ posts something which is able to be discussed, i.e. based on some sort of credible fact; as opposed to "feelings" he simply pulls out of his arse; how about we just keep reminding him he is yet to produce anything "meaningful" or worthy of discussion, we just keep pointing and laughing?

I.e. I contend that pointing and laughing is a perfectly valid response to any and all religious stupidity. May even stop some of that stupidity becoming law and general persecution.

You, on the other hand, could always simply stop reading this thread if others pointing out JJ's mendacity pains you so much.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4972  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 15, 2020 9:26 am

This subforum is in the Debunking section of this website. That implicitly acknowledges that there are some ideas which certain groups of people expound which are readily able to be shown wrong. Thanks to the particular history of this forum and the interests motivating the overall site agenda, Creationism has its very own subforum under that heading.

There's no suggestion that the objective of these threads is to convince the proponents of poorly conceived ideas that they're wrong. With many of these stupid ideas, the only reason that belief persists is because of the lack of reasoning engaged by the proponents and adherents - you don't overturn fundamentalist faith with reason because the former is not subject to the latter in their minds - instead, the platform is to allow those fundamentalists to publicly have their ideas exposed as bollocks.

As such, although JJ thinks he's doing a grand job exposing whatever nonsensical statement he's most recently tossed out, all he's really doing is providing an object example of what it takes to be a Creationist today.

If this is not the kind of thing you're into - and it's perfectly understandable if that's the case - then simply ignore the thread. :thumbup:
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4973  Postby THWOTH » Jan 15, 2020 3:20 pm

Jayjay4547 wrote:
THWOTH wrote:
You described 'ideology' there, not the content of a specifically 'atheist ideology'. So the complete 'atheist ideology' presented stands I reckon. If you take issue with that perhaps you could explain your grounds while providing a breviloquent formulation of you own?


Given that there is a self-serving atheist ideology, I am trying here to map out its form by describing how it has messed up the human origin story. In post 4895 I argued that Robert’s “The Incredible Unlikeliness of Being” told a story in which relations with other species were hardly mentioned. Crudely put, we created ourselves. I argue that ideologies are grounded on very simple crude concepts. For example, Marxist ideology was based on the simple belief that oppression of the workers was a bad thing and good would inevitably triumph.

OK. So your implicit response to my question is: No, you cannot explain why the complete 'atheist ideology' I presented should not stand, nor provide even a concise description of what a the presumed 'atheist ideology' does or might otherwise contain. I must admit that I'm not entirely surprised at your reluctance to address that matter either.

The first clause of your first sentence contains an objective statement: 'there is a self-serving atheist ideology'. You are saying here that a thing which we might call an 'atheist ideology' exists, and does so in the manner of a known or established fact or situation. If this is not what you're saying please feel free to correct me.

You move swiftly on from this to again discuss the nature of 'ideology', as if this is a term that is either disputed or requires some context which is otherwise absent. I would suggest that nobody you are interacting with here is in any doubt as to the meaning of 'ideology' or the context in which it is beging discussed. Simply put, you have merely repeated your previous reply to me on this matter, describing 'ideology' but not the content of a specifically 'atheist ideology'.

The best you can do is assume that the thing you say exists exists, and then cast around for something to confirm that assumption, or as you put it, to 'try to map out its form by describing how it has messed up the human origin story'.

Let me explain again what this means. You're saying that a thing called 'atheist ideology' definitely exists, that this thing 'messed up the human origins story', but you can only describe what this ideology contains once you have identified exactly how it 'messed up the human origins story.' Until then you have nothing to say about what an atheist ideology might be or actually is. Unfortunately, in this situation declarations citing the existence of this so-called ideology remain completely unsupported along with all the subordinate claims that necessarily rely on its existence.

Nonetheless, and aside from all that being an exercise in confirmation bias, you comment does rather lead one to wonder what might be 'the human origins story' that some kind of 'atheists ideology' actually 'messed up'.

So, I'll ask in all seriousness, what was or is the un-messed up human origins story, the story that stood aside or stands apart from that messingupily 'atheist ideology'? Now here, surely, is a question you can answer in some detail?
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4974  Postby Cito di Pense » Jan 15, 2020 3:51 pm

THWOTH wrote:what was or is the un-messed up human origins story, the story that stood aside or stands apart from that messingupily 'atheist ideology'? Now here, surely, is a question you can answer in some detail?



JJ claims the messed-up human origins story is that of "self-creation". The un-messed-up version is "humanity being created by something greater than itself". This is being given us by JJ via the Department of Tautology Department.

The details involve predators, prey species, loss of toothiness, and consequent mano a mano with predators using sticks, to make up for lack of toothiness.

Don't take my word for it, though. Wait for JJ to respond with something that doesn't answer your question.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4975  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 15, 2020 4:02 pm

Thwoth wrote:Nonetheless, and aside from all that being an exercise in confirmation bias, you comment does rather lead one to wonder what might be 'the human origins story' that some kind of 'atheists ideology' actually 'messed up'.


And unsurprisingly, it just so happens to be evolutionary biology ala every Creationist ever, and the concern isn't about any species other than humans who must always be held as axiomatically a special case.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4976  Postby Hermit » Jan 15, 2020 7:00 pm

THWOTH wrote:So, I'll ask in all seriousness, what was or is the un-messed up human origins story, the story that stood aside or stands apart from that messingupily 'atheist ideology'? Now here, surely, is a question you can answer in some detail?

Never mind the details. Here is the un-messed up human origins story, the story that stood aside or stands apart from that messingupily 'atheist ideology' in its brilliant simplicity:

Image
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4977  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 15, 2020 8:54 pm

I think it's fair to say that JJ's underlying belief motivating all this nonsense is a pig in lipstick. Despite all the false humility he pretends when challenged, his real faith - like all fundamentalists - is in himself, his own cleverness. The gods truly do help those who help themselves.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4978  Postby Cito di Pense » Jan 15, 2020 10:08 pm

Spearthrower wrote:his real faith - like all fundamentalists - is in himself, his own cleverness.


It's a veneer, this lipstick. All JJ's pretenses of academic interest and engagement are the same sorts of pretenses the cargo cults used. You tend to wonder what sorts of boobs JJ is used to snowing with his lengthy essays.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4979  Postby Jayjay4547 » Jan 16, 2020 5:32 am

THWOTH wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:
THWOTH wrote:
You described 'ideology' there, not the content of a specifically 'atheist ideology'. So the complete 'atheist ideology' presented stands I reckon. If you take issue with that perhaps you could explain your grounds while providing a breviloquent formulation of you own?


Given that there is a self-serving atheist ideology, I am trying here to map out its form by describing how it has messed up the human origin story. In post 4895 I argued that Robert’s “The Incredible Unlikeliness of Being” told a story in which relations with other species were hardly mentioned. Crudely put, we created ourselves. I argue that ideologies are grounded on very simple crude concepts. For example, Marxist ideology was based on the simple belief that oppression of the workers was a bad thing and good would inevitably triumph.

OK. So your implicit response to my question is: No, you cannot explain why the complete 'atheist ideology' I presented should not stand, nor provide even a concise description of what a the presumed 'atheist ideology' does or might otherwise contain. I must admit that I'm not entirely surprised at your reluctance to address that matter either.

The first clause of your first sentence contains an objective statement: 'there is a self-serving atheist ideology'. You are saying here that a thing which we might call an 'atheist ideology' exists, and does so in the manner of a known or established fact or situation. If this is not what you're saying please feel free to correct me.

You move swiftly on from this to again discuss the nature of 'ideology', as if this is a term that is either disputed or requires some context which is otherwise absent. I would suggest that nobody you are interacting with here is in any doubt as to the meaning of 'ideology' or the context in which it is being discussed. Simply put, you have merely repeated your previous reply to me on this matter, describing 'ideology' but not the content of a specifically 'atheist ideology'.

It might be true that nobody here misunderstands the word “ideology” but the first line of defence is to deny that there can be such a thing as atheist ideology.

THWOTH wrote: The best you can do is assume that the thing you say exists exists, and then cast around for something to confirm that assumption, or as you put it, to 'try to map out its form by describing how it has messed up the human origin story'.


Nah. like I said before, I didn’t assume there was an atheist ideology and then try to map it. I saw that the human origin narrative had been messed up (Robert’s “The incredible Unlikeness of Being” is the example I discussed recently) and then I looked for an ideological explanation. And I know that I am partly wrong; I am failing to distinguish between the effects of atheist ideology and those merely arising from dialectic; reaction in Western societies to a former strong belief in Genesis, in the face of persistent continued belief in that religious origin story.

Then, in order to find an authentic position, I sought out a local church in the denomination that has been most affected by this dialectic, that is, where the deep problem is presented most bafflingly, which is the Anglican church. That was 18 years ago. The same drive for authenticity led me to identify as Creationist. Now you don’t have to deal with someone who seems to be on your side but who carps. I’m not on your side. And you-all really could do with some opposition.

THWOTH wrote: Let me explain again what this means. You're saying that a thing called 'atheist ideology' definitely exists, that this thing 'messed up the human origins story', but you can only describe what this ideology contains once you have identified exactly how it 'messed up the human origins story.' Until then you have nothing to say about what an atheist ideology might be or actually is. Unfortunately, in this situation declarations citing the existence of this so-called ideology remain completely unsupported along with all the subordinate claims that necessarily rely on its existence.


In post 4895 I argued that Robert’s book tells a human origin narrative in which relations between our ancestors and other actors hardly appear and when they do appear, our ancestors play the dominant role (“predators”) and those relations are distinctly weak and short-lived. That is one way that atheist ideology has messed up the human origin story.

Your only response to that argument was to leap on my mentioning the “job” of the male lion, when you presented the fashionable take about males being parasites.

To tell the human origin story right, you need start with the right dramatis personae and you can get quite far with a small cast: hominins, leopard, baboons, the sycamore fig and the C4 grasses. Of those, only hominins figure in Robert’s story.

THWOTH wrote: Nonetheless, and aside from all that being an exercise in confirmation bias, you comment does rather lead one to wonder what might be 'the human origins story' that some kind of 'atheists ideology' actually 'messed up'.

So, I'll ask in all seriousness, what was or is the un-messed up human origins story, the story that stood aside or stands apart from that messing up 'atheist ideology'? Now here, surely, is a question you can answer in some detail?


“Confirmation bias” my foot. An origin story I can believe is one that DETAILS how humans were created through natural selection responses to creative, sustained and intimate relations with other African species.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#4980  Postby Jayjay4547 » Jan 16, 2020 6:48 am

Genesis story: Life was created by God.

Atheism story: Life was created by Nothing

So Alice Roberts tells the human origin story in which there were no actors apart from our own ancestors, and chance in the guise of “unlikeliness” is the most important thing to say about the outcome.
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