How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

Spin-off from "Dialog on 'Creationists read this' "

Incl. intelligent design, belief in divine creation

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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#2641  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jan 08, 2019 5:10 pm

Beliefs are illusions. No better than wet dreams. Belief is the typical theistic argument; you must have belief. I was kicked out the church because I maintained that belief does not exist. No one has ever proved otherwise.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#2642  Postby Cito di Pense » Jan 08, 2019 5:12 pm

zoon wrote:
I’m somewhat torn here, because I do agree that the primary meaning of “atheism” is the broad one, the absence of claims of theism.


That's a defect in the term 'atheism', if you want to slice and dice it semantically. You don't have to call yourself an atheist if all it does is suck you into endless wibbles about whether or not you lack belief in some particular set of concepts.

Jayjay's problem is that he thinks "atheism" is some kind of constituency, but I doubt anyone will ever get around to sorting that out, as long as he keeps everyone running around after "ideology'.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#2643  Postby archibald » Jan 08, 2019 6:13 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
archibald wrote:
You can have conclusions based on reasoning and evidence, sure, but (a) maybe they are still beliefs and (b) atheism is supposed to be a lack of belief so talk of conclusions is slightly away from the point.


Well, that's why it's so awkward for you to try to think about it, since you use other people's beliefs to give yourself a starting point. That's what I mean about the stuff that's locked up inside somebody else's skull.

If, on the other hand, your epistemology is so weak that you're about to say that everything is a belief, even the value of evidence, then maybe that's a product of the sort of evidence you're most used to dicking around with.


Certainly the word belief can cover a lot more than just belief in god. If we say it's merely a mental representation of an attitude positively oriented towards the likelihood of something being true, then......

I'm not saying that everything is a belief. I'm not even saying everything we think is a belief. I'm saying that when we adopt the above (or when it adopts us, depending on whether or not we actually have much autonomous say in the matter) it's a belief, and that atheism is a belief in that sense.

As to the problem of other minds, I can't get around that any better than anyone can and as far as I know it's strictly speaking impossible. I have to guess just like everyone else, go by what other people say, etc. For example you attempting to detour me with side issues. :)
Last edited by archibald on Jan 08, 2019 6:30 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#2644  Postby archibald » Jan 08, 2019 6:13 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:Beliefs are illusions. No better than wet dreams. Belief is the typical theistic argument; you must have belief. I was kicked out the church because I maintained that belief does not exist. No one has ever proved otherwise.


Scott, you don't have to be scared by the word belief just because of a negative experience with one version of it. :)

And you can admit to having beliefs without giving anything away to the dreaded theists, because the problem is not their having beliefs, or even ideologies, the problem is not anyone having either, there is only a problem if particular ones are unwarranted/unjustified, in other words if there is a lack of good reasons or evidences to have them.

By the way, you probably need to stop talking about proof. It's not an option one way or the other for the key components of this.
Last edited by archibald on Jan 08, 2019 6:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#2645  Postby Fenrir » Jan 08, 2019 6:20 pm

Fuck I wish someone would have had the sense to seal that bloody cave while Plato was still in it.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#2646  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jan 08, 2019 6:34 pm

archibald wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:Beliefs are illusions. No better than wet dreams. Belief is the typical theistic argument; you must have belief. I was kicked out the church because I maintained that belief does not exist. No one has ever proved otherwise.


Scott, you don't have to be scared by the word belief just because of a negative experience with one version of it. :)

And you can admit to having beliefs without giving anything away to the dreaded theists, because the problem is not their having beliefs, or even ideologies, the problem is not anyone having either, there is only a problem if particular ones are unwarranted/unjustified, in other words if there is a lack of good reasons or evidences to have them.

By the way, you probably need to stop talking about proof. It's not an option one way or the other for the key components of this.


FFS I am not scared. JFCOAPS That is the last thing I am but I dont have beliefs in anything. I believe in facts which need evidence.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#2647  Postby aban57 » Jan 08, 2019 6:39 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote: I believe in facts


:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#2648  Postby Cito di Pense » Jan 08, 2019 6:51 pm

archibald wrote:If we say it's merely a mental representation of an attitude positively oriented towards the likelihood of something being true, then......


In the next installment, give us a dissertation on how "truth" denotes "that which is the case".

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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#2649  Postby archibald » Jan 08, 2019 7:16 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
archibald wrote:If we say it's merely a mental representation of an attitude positively oriented towards the likelihood of something being true, then......


In the next installment, give us a dissertation on how "truth" denotes "that which is the case".

:rofl: :clap: :dance: :rofl: :clap: :dance: :rofl: :clap: :dance: :rofl: :clap: :dance: :rofl: :clap: :dance:


I believe you've gotten worse since the last time I chatted to you. I don't know if it's the truth, or a fact, but I'm not doing either here. I'm doing propositional attitudes. Nor is 'worse' necessarily meant as a pejorative.

Ok it might be. :)

Your rate of adding smilies appears to have gone up at least.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#2650  Postby archibald » Jan 08, 2019 7:23 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:.... I don't have beliefs in anything. I believe in facts......


Gotcha. :)

That's the 20th smilie in only 4 posts (excluding quoted ones), mostly thanks to cito. What is the forum record? Are smilies an indicator of a decline in standards here? Beliefs on a postcard please.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#2651  Postby laklak » Jan 09, 2019 2:28 am

To paraphrase Walter Sobchak, "Atheists! Fuck me. Say what you will about the tenets of Theism, Dude, at least it's an ideology".
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#2652  Postby Fallible » Jan 09, 2019 7:53 am

archibald wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:.... I don't have beliefs in anything. I believe in facts......


Gotcha. :)


Don't forget that he was kicked out of church 'for maintaining that belief does not exist'. Scot has had this weird thing going on with atheism and belief for years now. It's hard to understand. Or maybe I'm just thick.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#2653  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jan 09, 2019 9:11 am

I never thought it weird Fall. Maybe for some. It is just me. I dont consider that belief exists. It is something created by theists out of nothing. The final mystical piece that you must have to understand their belief system. It is in fact a commitment. You are willing to accept all their structures, processes and mystical bits to be part of their club. Catholics have reconfirm their belief at the end of mass.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#2654  Postby Alan B » Jan 09, 2019 9:24 am

Control. It's all about control.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#2655  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jan 09, 2019 9:51 am

Alan B wrote:Control. It's all about control.


That as well Alan. Yep belief is a control mechanism.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#2656  Postby archibald » Jan 09, 2019 12:54 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Alan B wrote:Control. It's all about control.


That as well Alan. Yep belief is a control mechanism.


Something that does not exist can't be a control mechanism.

I think I sort of understand what you're saying, but I think it's unnecessarily mixing up different things and probably only relating to one type of belief (in a god) but I have no great desire to change your mind about it.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#2657  Postby archibald » Jan 09, 2019 1:07 pm

Fallible wrote:
archibald wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:.... I don't have beliefs in anything. I believe in facts......


Gotcha. :)


Don't forget that he was kicked out of church 'for maintaining that belief does not exist'. Scot has had this weird thing going on with atheism and belief for years now. It's hard to understand. Or maybe I'm just thick.


In Scott's case, I think (non-pejoratively) that what he says about belief not existing is mixed up, and limited to belief in god and suchlike, not what are called propositional attitudes generally, which you can have about a pizza or a holiday.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propositional_attitude

As to whether beliefs (generally, nothing necessarily to do with theism) exist or not, I once knew a very intelligent (atheist) cognitive scientist who more or less said they didn't, or at least that he didn't believe they did, which is confusing. I think it boiled down to the idea that what we call beliefs are not necessarily what we think they are and that they have illusory aspects. Not unlike self, which I agree is a 'user illusion' in the sense of being a phenomenon that is not what it appears to be. I might not be able to explain what I mean there succinctly because it's been a while since I've thunk about it.

Being an illusion does not necessarily entail not existing, I think. All the components of a mirage exist, for instance, it's just not what it seems to be (there's no water). So the mirage exists but not the water. Strictly speaking I think we should say that the appearance of water is an illusion, not that the water is an illusion (in a mirage).

Is the belief that there is water, when there isn't, an illusion? I don't think so. Without neuroscientifically or philosophically getting into exactly what a belief actually is or isn't, I think there is the belief (the mental state we call a belief) it's just that it's a mistaken one in that case. Ditto god. Probably.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#2658  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jan 09, 2019 1:43 pm

Never mind.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#2659  Postby Cito di Pense » Jan 09, 2019 3:01 pm

archibald wrote:I think it boiled down to the idea that what we call beliefs are not necessarily what we think they are and that they have illusory aspects.


Not all ideas are what they appear to be. Some of them are beliefs. And of course, not all beliefs are what they appear to be. Some of them are ideas. Frankly, any source of disagreement over which you might not shoot someone is probably not a belief, but can better be described as "an idle thought".

I'd say I really believe that, but would you believe me? More smilies to come.

archibald wrote:I might not be able to explain what I mean there succinctly because it's been a while since I've thunk about it.


There's no intellectual heavy lifting involved, so you don't need to be succinct.

Here's what the notes on the above-linked wikipedia article on "Propositional Attitude" have to say:

This article is written like a personal reflection, personal essay, or argumentative essay that states a Wikipedia editor's personal feelings or presents an original argument about a topic. Please help improve it by rewriting it in an encyclopedic style.


This article includes a list of references, but its sources remain unclear because it has insufficient inline citations. Please help to improve this article by introducing more precise citations.


What is it that particularly attracted you about finding a wikipedia article on the term, other than that at least one other person might have picked up the term and, uh, thought idly about it for as long as it took to write a personal essay about it? We have a 1956 reference to the term from Quine, so that must mean the term is valuable.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#2660  Postby archibald » Jan 09, 2019 10:40 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:We have a 1956 reference to the term from Quine, so that must mean the term is valuable.


I'm sure you have a better one, and I'm literally dying to hear all about it.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

(There's nothing personal or especially relevant about the number of smilies; I'm just doing my bit for the world record attempt, though I did make my contribution more tidy and ordered and rational than yours, but then I do that during our exchanges in the general sense anyway).
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