Spearthrower wrote:In every single instance without fail so far in this thread, when JJ has cited a source, it's turned out that the source doesn't support what he's been citing it for.
It would be more true to say that whenever Spearthrower has followed up a reference I provided, it has been just to declare that it doesn’t support what I cited it for. Here is an example from a thread that started back on page 209. I'm sorry for the length, I try to make it compact as possible.
Spearthrower wrote:Leopards don't actually typically climb trees to hunt baboons because that would be very silly. A baboon weighs only a third of a leopard and is far better adapted to climbing trees. A leopard that climbs up the trunk of a tree is going to quickly find that the baboon has either a) moved out to thinner branches that cannot bear the leopard's weight or b) has run along a branch and jumped to another tree.
Jayjay4547 wrote:In this video which I have put up a few times on this forum, a leopard openly hunts a single baboon in a tree, who hangs onto a thin branch, but the leopard is prepared to take a fall, catching the baboon on the way down and killing it on the ground.
Naked link to Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NR2m4Q2WCqIIn this video a leopard openly hunts and kills a much smaller monkey in a tree, also demonstrating great climbing skills and determination.
Naked link to Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5jX3GnwThUBusse (1980) observed this:
When leopards attack a baboon roost they may remain at the roost for long intervals, and sometimes for the entire night. Two kills appeared to have been made at least an hour after leopards first attacked the roost. Thus, surprise is not a necessary element of successful attack, although one kill appeared to have been made in surprise.
(Incidentally a close look shows that the leopard didn’t catch the baboon on the way down; when it saw the leopard was going to catch it, the baboon looked over its shoulder at the ground and then let go of the branch. It reached the ground before the leopard and managed to run a few metres, maybe turning on its pursuer in the last second before being caught and killed. )
After that, the thread went on for a while, marked with abuse from Spearthrower, extracted below:
Spearthrower wrote:Thereby once again reiterating that Jayjay4547 is incapable of honest discourse as he's a
compulsive liar..Here is the paper trail showing not only that you are a
compulsive liar, but that you also gaslight like all
abusive liars….Which documents your
lying quite clearly because the source you're supposedly replying to already addresses the normal circumstances, and you've ignored all of that, misrepresenting it all as me saying that leopards don't climb trees…..You should be ashamed, but as has been established many times already: you have none.
Here is where Spearthrower picked up on the reference to Busse 1980:
Spearthrower wrote: And you once again try
lying directly at someone who's clearly not going to buy into your
blatant lie./,I think you're actually deranged, JJ. I don't think you are even slightly aware of what abject bullshit you employ….Nb Your quote says nothing whatsoever contrary to leopards not typically climbing trees to hunt monkeys - not one word:
When leopards attack a baboon roost they may remain at the roost for long intervals, and sometimes for the entire night. Two kills appeared to have been made at least an hour after leopards first attacked the roost. Thus, surprise is not a necessary element of successful attack, although one kill appeared to have been made in surprise.
In the Moremi Wildlife Reserve/Sometimes remain at the roost overnight./Over the course of 3 years of observation, 2 observed kills were made at a roost/Nothing remotely supports your claim./Yet you cite it and then repeat your citation again and again even though it doesn't support your claim./This is lying./There is no other word for it./Further, as is typical for Creationist liars, you are not honestly reporting the source you're appealing to.
…Leopards attacked baboon sleeping roosts six times and made three kills. We were able to monitor these attacks because we sleep at or near the baboon roosts whenever possible. One of the two baboon groups under study regularly slept in the tall Acacia nigrescens trees at our camp. There have been no verified leopard attacks at this camp roost, possibly because leopards are avoiding humans. There were three leopard attacks, including one kill of an adult female (X troop) during 45 nights at a roost 4 km from camp and utilized primarily by W troop. Alarm calls attracted us to three other leopard attacks upon baboons roosting near but not directly at the camp. These attacks resulted in one kill of an adult female (Z troop) and one kill of an adult male (C troop).
There were two incidental records of leopard predation upon baboons. In both cases leopard spoor were found near a fresh baboon carcass, one an adult male and one a subadult male.12 Also a leopard was seen attacking a baboon roost at dusk. but the attack was disrupted by the presence of observers.13
Our records of leopards attacking baboon roosts at night are a unique set of observations and are briefly described here.
leopards any further. Upon our return l ½ hours later the leopards had killed an adult female baboon. They consumed part of the kill then cached it in a tree before finishing it later that day.
So the reality is that in one particular location encompassing 2 roosts, over the course of nearly 3 years, they observed 6 attacks on roosts which resulted in 3 kills./This doesn't say that in each case leopards climbed trees./This doesn't show that baboons don't run up trees to escape leopards./It shows leopards using night time cover to attack monkeys./Only one of these observed kills actually suggests a leopard having made a kill up a tree./That's one observation over nearly 3 years. Ergo, even here, even in a particular location where leopards are known for attacking roosts, it is NOT TYPICAL for leopards to chase monkeys up trees, and in this case, there is NO CHASING anyway as the monkeys are ROOSTING in those trees./More importantly, as usual for all Creationists, you've ignored all the contradictory bits which you can't blag to suit your lies.
We arrived to find the leopard 15 metres up a tall D. mespiliformis tree in the middle of the roost. Numerous baboons were also in this tree and within ten metres of the leopard. The leopard was standing on a thick branch near the trunk and the baboons were on smaller, terminal branches. The leopard descended from the tree and ran away a minute after we arrived.The leopards made several separate attacks into different trees and one of these attacks lasted for 2 ½ hours. During this interval the adult leopard was 10 m. up an A. nigrescens tree in which an adult female baboon was apparently “trapped” at the end of a branch. The trapped baboon gave “fear” barks during the entire interval and remained at the branch tip out of the leopard's reach.Spearthrower wrote:A leopard that climbs up the trunk of a tree is going to quickly find that the baboon has either a) moved out to thinner branches that cannot bear the leopard's weight...
So the source that you are appealing to in order to "contradict my lecture" (you patronizing, self-ignorant arse) in no way contradicts my rebuttal of your inane claims.
Your actual claims are that baboons should be standing up to leopards scaring them off with their impressive canines, which is obviously fucking ridiculous.
Your actual claims are that fleeing leopards up a tree is not something that monkeys do because leopards will follow them and eat them, yet the single source you've offered which constitutes observations made only in one particular place in which leopards attack roosts at night shows exactly the opposite as leopards very rarely made kills of monkeys up trees even at night.
If these observations are taken within the context of a leopard needing to eat to survive, what we've actually got is a massive investment of time and very little to show from it. A 20kg baboon is going to offer only a few kilograms of edible parts, and 3 baboon kills (2 of which aren't even observed to have occurred in a tree) over the course of 3 years is nowhere near sufficient to represent anything like a stable part of a leopard's diet. Nor are such rare occasions going to represent any form of evolutionary driver that pushes adaptation.
You simply don't know what you're talking about, but your narcissism won't let you realize that you are lying to yourself about your knowledge and abilities.
Spearthrower’s tactic here (apart from the blanketing abuse) was firstly, to drop in a larger dollop from the source that I had originally done and then make out that it contradicted the text I had quoted, which was Busse’s own conclusion from his experiences. Secondly, Spearthrower put claims I had not made:
“Your actual claims are that baboons should be standing up to leopards scaring them off with their impressive canines, which is obviously fucking ridiculous”The record shows that I didn’t claim that, just that leopard are quite prepared and capable of hunting baboons in trees. The relevance of that is that, as alternative prey, Australopithecus would be at a disadvantage relative to baboons, if they similarly roosted in trees.
I do claim that male baboons have impressive canines but I’m not sure what role they play in an attack in a roosting tree. I have often wished there was more data on those and wondered why the researchers at Moremi didn’t install night vision cameras near roosting trees. One reason could be that many nights pass with no attacks on a particular tree, A friend with experience in the Kruger Park told me that baboons there also roost in trees but they choose different trees on different nights, she thinks, to make it more difficult for a leopard to find them at night.
From Cheney’s fascinating account of a leopard being mobbed by the baboon troop immediately it attacked a man, my best guess is that when a leopard hunts in a roosting tree at night, it is in danger from those impressive canines, especially AFTER it manages to make a kill at a height too great for it to jump down the tree from, with the kill in its mouth.
Your actual claims are that fleeing leopards up a tree is not something that monkeys do because leopards will follow them and eat them, yet the single source you've offered which constitutes observations made only in one particular place in which leopards attack roosts at night shows exactly the opposite as leopards very rarely made kills of monkeys up trees even at night.That again is something I didn’t “actually” claim. I quoted Busse over 40 times, in his accounts of how baboons in Moremi do roost in trees, where they were predated. As Cheney recounted, a troop of baboons will harass a leopard during the day.
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