Is Evolution Wrong?

Incl. intelligent design, belief in divine creation

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Is Evolution Wrong?

#1  Postby DoctorE » Nov 21, 2010 11:45 am

Sunday Morning Live - 21 November 2010 BBC1
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uh0twYfpR6g[/youtube]
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Re: Is Evolution Wrong?

#2  Postby CADman2300 » Nov 21, 2010 4:24 pm

They couldn't have picked a worse lot for this news story, assuming you can even call that. Andy McIntosh is a combustion theorist who's been used before as an argument from authority by Answers in Genesis, and to make matters worse, the University of Leeds where he works has issued statements meant to distance themselves from the creationist propaganda that he promotes.

That Phil character was a complete ignoramus and Anne did a poor job trying to counter his literal take on the OT. To top it off, the pro-evolution guy they had in the end wasn't given nearly enough time to say anything meaningful and neither was Valerie. The show's whole debate was pointless and serves no purpose other than a propaganda tool by creatards to spread confusion.
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Re: Is Evolution Wrong?

#3  Postby Peter Brown » Nov 21, 2010 11:07 pm

I occasionally watch this Sunday morning program, and it is a light weight discussion aimed at the god squad audience. nuff said
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Re: Is Evolution Wrong?

#4  Postby Delvo » Nov 22, 2010 3:42 am

The creationists just acted like creationists. The oddest part was what the woman with the brown jacket and red scarf said, that they Biblical stories are so obviously false that their falsehood doesn't even matter because they're meant to convey some unstated lesson rather than facts. What valuable lesson can be learned from a story that's presented as factual but isn't, how is anyone supposed to know what the lesson from it is supposed to be when it's not stated in the story and all we can do in that case is just make it up, how is that method of teaching the lesson better than teaching the same lesson in another way or just not at all, and why strain so hard to come up with excuses for such a story instead of just ditching it?
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Re: Is Evolution Wrong?

#5  Postby willhud9 » Nov 22, 2010 3:46 am

I believe Darwin got it wrong because I hear Darwin is the only scientist who fathomed the concept. Besides Charles Darwin was a incest loving bastard and was mentally psychotic.

Like really? Is that the type of debate this has turned into?
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Re: Is Evolution Wrong?

#6  Postby Bolero » Nov 22, 2010 4:47 am

Why is it that evolution is only not accepted by blinkered religious fools? Have they ever thought of that? Huh? Huh?
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Re: Is Evolution Wrong?

#7  Postby Calilasseia » Nov 22, 2010 4:50 am

willhud9 wrote:I believe Darwin got it wrong because I hear Darwin is the only scientist who fathomed the concept. Besides Charles Darwin was a incest loving bastard and was mentally psychotic.

Like really? Is that the type of debate this has turned into?


In the case of some of the ideological stormtroopers for doctrine, it's even worse than that. Look up Richard Weikart, who has wasted much ink and paper trying to propagate the specious meme that Darwin was doing the warm-up for the Holocaust.
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Re: Is Evolution Wrong?

#8  Postby Rumraket » Nov 22, 2010 6:16 am

CADman2300 wrote:They couldn't have picked a worse lot for this news story, assuming you can even call that. Andy McIntosh is a combustion theorist who's been used before as an argument from authority by Answers in Genesis, and to make matters worse, the University of Leeds where he works has issued statements meant to distance themselves from the creationist propaganda that he promotes.

That Phil character was a complete ignoramus and Anne did a poor job trying to counter his literal take on the OT. To top it off, the pro-evolution guy they had in the end wasn't given nearly enough time to say anything meaningful and neither was Valerie. The show's whole debate was pointless and serves no purpose other than a propaganda tool by creatards to spread confusion.

Of course she did a poor job countering his biblical stance, she was working from a position of peddling a non-litteral interpretation. The simple fact is that the most fundamentalist ignoramuses have got it right, they are the ones who know and understand the text and what the words mean. You cannot defend the metaphorical interpretationist view against that and you never could.
Fundamentalist creotards have been winning these interpretationist arguments since day one.

The only way to address these claims are with hard science, the real-world facts. Not by engaging in philosowibble and apologetics. And for sure, a talkshow is not the proper way to do that.
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Re: Is Evolution Wrong?

#9  Postby Darwinsbulldog » Nov 22, 2010 6:38 am

Andy McIntosh is either a lying cunt, or stupid or both! One thing is for sure, he is not a scientist. I don't care if he hold a chair in science. he is an impostor as a scientist, betrayed by his own words. No science starts with "....I believe X as fact, and then proceeds to "prove" it. Because it can't be proven, or even supported by evidence, unless you ignore the evidence. He is deliberate about his confirmation bias. [At least in that he is honest]. he is not in the science business, he is in the apologetics business. At least when he talks about these topics. he should be stripped of his Professorship. He is not a teacher of science, but a propagandist for woo.

All this, "I believe, I believe".....and I am not a scientists but...by another panel member.
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Re: Is Evolution Wrong?

#10  Postby Paul » Nov 22, 2010 9:01 am

I normally avoid the program as it usually makes my blood boil, but I caught this bit yesterday and watched this in horror.

I've sent the following complaint to the BBC (not that it'll do any good)

The “debate” on evolution on 'Sunday Morning Live' on 21st November was a travesty.



What on earth is the BBC doing, giving airtime to such unintelligent ideas, and to make matters worse, not allow the counter arguments to this bronze age thinking to be put properly? The item turned into a propaganda slot for creationism, and had no place on the same channel that has aired so many excellent factual documentaries such as Sir David Attenborough's excellent 'First Life'.



No properly educated, reasonable, informed person would think that Darwin got it wrong - there is no debate to be had.

The question that really needs to be posed is “Does the fact that in the 21st century are there still people who dogmatically cling to Bible creationism, demonstrate the dangers of religious indoctrination?”



Can we look forward to a similar “debate” on heliocentricity in a future series of 'Sunday Morning Live'?

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Re: Is Evolution Wrong?

#11  Postby Wiðercora » Nov 22, 2010 9:14 am

I can't believe I missed this! I love shouting and throwing things at the television.

I will e-mail the RadioTimes when I return this afternoon :arguing: .
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Re: Is Evolution Wrong?

#12  Postby Roger Stanyard » Nov 22, 2010 10:26 am

Darwinsbulldog wrote:Andy McIntosh is either a lying cunt, or stupid or both! One thing is for sure, he is not a scientist. I don't care if he hold a chair in science. he is an impostor as a scientist, betrayed by his own words. No science starts with "....I believe X as fact, and then proceeds to "prove" it. Because it can't be proven, or even supported by evidence, unless you ignore the evidence. He is deliberate about his confirmation bias. [At least in that he is honest]. he is not in the science business, he is in the apologetics business. At least when he talks about these topics. he should be stripped of his Professorship. He is not a teacher of science, but a propagandist for woo.

All this, "I believe, I believe".....and I am not a scientists but...by another panel member.


McIntosh is not a scientist; he's an engineering by training, having done his PhD in the College of Aeronautics at Cranfield University. His first degree is in maths. At best he's a chemical engineer. I was a contemporary of McIntosh at Cranfield; the place then simply did not offer qualifications in the natural sciences - just engineering and management.

However, in the key areas that are covered by creationism - geology and biology, he's totally and completely unqualified. According to his CV on the web site of AiG, he doesn't even have an O level in biology or geology - not even in geography which overlaps a bit with geology.

Phil Robinson, the NI bigot in the programme, is a PE teacher by training! Talk about someone from obscurity.

If you go to our web site at www.bcseweb.org.uk there's a load of updated stuff on Northern Ireland. You can access it through our home page.
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Re: Is Evolution Wrong?

#13  Postby Delvo » Nov 22, 2010 3:09 pm

Darwinsbulldog wrote:All this, "I believe, I believe".....and I am not a scientists but...by another panel member.
I kept waiting for the camera to pan just one more chair over to the side and reveal Hitch saying "I believe the problem is all these people beginning their statements with 'I believe'..."

Paul wrote:The question that really needs to be posed is “Does the fact that in the 21st century are there still people who dogmatically cling to Bible creationism, demonstrate the dangers of religious indoctrination?”
An interesting idea... go after these people with a "religion is dangerous" theme instead of just sitting back and responding to whatever nonsense they eject at us first...
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Re: Is Evolution Wrong?

#14  Postby Roger Stanyard » Nov 23, 2010 9:02 am

Delvo wrote:An interesting idea... go after these people with a "religion is dangerous" theme instead of just sitting back and responding to whatever nonsense they eject at us first...


We have and we do! Relentlessly. However, our target is basically creationism rather than religion in general.

Roger, British Centre for Science Education
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Re: Is Evolution Wrong?

#15  Postby trubble76 » Nov 23, 2010 12:08 pm

Roger Stanyard wrote:
Delvo wrote:An interesting idea... go after these people with a "religion is dangerous" theme instead of just sitting back and responding to whatever nonsense they eject at us first...


We have and we do! Relentlessly. However, our target is basically creationism rather than religion in general.

Roger, British Centre for Science Education


Well done that man! I applaud your efforts in an essentially thankless task. Bravo.
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Re: Is Evolution Wrong?

#16  Postby ChasM » Nov 23, 2010 12:34 pm

Phil's a treasure, constantly interrupting while the woman on the left tries to talk. Nice moderation, btw.

And Anne (sp?) doesn't seem to know her bible scholarship, saying that there was one author for Genesis. :lol: Obviously missed that class on Y & P.

And that "respected scientist" - with no apparent credentials as a biologist - seems like an old fool with his feather.

So this is what passes for debate on the BBC these days? What's the point (other than to make Xians feel good)?
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Re: Is Evolution Wrong?

#17  Postby Oeditor » Nov 23, 2010 2:21 pm

ChasM wrote:So this is what passes for debate on the BBC these days? What's the point (other than to make Xians feel good)?
That's what the programme's for, week in and week out. Puffing up whatever religion they're favouring - usually with a nominal opposition who doesn't get a word in edgeways.
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Re: Is Evolution Wrong?

#18  Postby ChasM » Nov 23, 2010 3:24 pm

Oeditor wrote:
ChasM wrote:So this is what passes for debate on the BBC these days? What's the point (other than to make Xians feel good)?
That's what the programme's for, week in and week out. Puffing up whatever religion they're favouring - usually with a nominal opposition who doesn't get a word in edgeways.

Damned liberal media!
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Re: Is Evolution Wrong?

#19  Postby Delvo » Nov 23, 2010 5:26 pm

ChasM wrote:And that "respected scientist" - with no apparent credentials as a biologist - seems like an old fool with his feather.
These folks do seem to love their props.

"I have here in my hand a feather..."

"I have here in my hand a banana..."

"I have here in my hand a jar of peanut butter..."

"I have here in my hand a drawing of a chimera..."

"I have here in my hand a watch (or other human-engineered gadget)..."

It's like they think the only objection to their line of reasoning that someone could have is that the object they're talking about doesn't exist, so if they can prove that it exists, then their case is made. It makes me want to get in one of these debates and find a way to take something with me so I can do their shtick: "I have here in my hand a cynodont skull..." or "I have here in my hand an amborella..."
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Re: Is Evolution Wrong?

#20  Postby RationalMind » Nov 24, 2010 5:30 pm

Darwinsbulldog wrote:Andy McIntosh is either a lying cunt, or stupid or both! One thing is for sure, he is not a scientist. I don't care if he hold a chair in science. he is an impostor as a scientist, betrayed by his own words. No science starts with "....I believe X as fact, and then proceeds to "prove" it. Because it can't be proven, or even supported by evidence, unless you ignore the evidence. He is deliberate about his confirmation bias. [At least in that he is honest]. he is not in the science business, he is in the apologetics business. At least when he talks about these topics. he should be stripped of his Professorship. He is not a teacher of science, but a propagandist for woo.

All this, "I believe, I believe".....and I am not a scientists but...by another panel member.


How do we know what the word "scientist" means. Well, we look in a dictionary and the generally accepted definitive
dictionary of the English language is the Oxford English Dictionary the OED. This is the definition that it gives

" A person with expert knowledge of a science; a person using scientific methods."

Since advocating creationism is the antithesis of the scientific method he doesn't seem to be acting like a scientist to me.

It is puzzling how someone saying such daft things could become a professor. So seeing that his CV is on-line I took a look.

This seems interesting


1968 GCE 'O' level (Northern Universities Joint Matriculation Board): English Language 3, Mathematics 1, French 3, German 5, Latin 5, Physics 2, Chemistry 3


I'd be interested to hear from others who were in school at that time, but whilst his later qualifications look excellent,these are not the grades that I would expect from a student at 16 who was to go on to be a university professor.
If the standard is around the same as when I took them, when the pass grades changed to the letters A,B, and C, I would bet that there would be several people in the year with much better grades. Mine are better than that.

I am thinking of two academic friends whose grades I know. One teaches at "Oxbridge" and got A's in everything I am very sure of that and the other had all As barring one B IIRC.

I do wonder whether he is very bright with mathematical things but not at other stuff. I have heard tell of this kind of
thing before. His biology is abysmal, but we all know that!

I'd be interested to get confirmation that his university has distanced themselves from him.
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