Mike Pence: "Evolution is just a theory"

Creationist VP-elect of the USA

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Re: Mike Pence: "Evolution is just a theory"

#161  Postby Scot Dutchy » Sep 25, 2018 8:01 am

Mods clear up this thread please. It is about what Pence believes in not what a Wortfish thread again.
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Re: Mike Pence: "Evolution is just a theory"

#162  Postby Sendraks » Sep 25, 2018 8:30 am

Wortfish wrote:
In other words, life could be polyphyletyic rather than monophyletic.


No. The evidence doesn't support that.
If you worked from actual evidence, rather than misunderstanding terminology and trying to retro-fit the meaning of words to your assumed conclusions, you wouldn't make such mistakes.
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Re: Mike Pence: "Evolution is just a theory"

#163  Postby aban57 » Sep 25, 2018 8:38 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:Mods clear up this thread please. It is about what Pence believes in not what a Wortfish thread again.


Well it's the same bullshit on both sides. Addressing Wortfish's beliefs addresses Pence's.
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Re: Mike Pence: "Evolution is just a theory"

#164  Postby Scot Dutchy » Sep 25, 2018 8:41 am

We dont know if Pence's belief are the same as Wortfish's.
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Re: Mike Pence: "Evolution is just a theory"

#165  Postby Sendraks » Sep 25, 2018 8:45 am

Broadly speaking, they are the same. They might differ in their choice of inept arguments but, they're both arguing for the same nonsense and from a position of abject ignorance.
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Re: Mike Pence: "Evolution is just a theory"

#166  Postby Scot Dutchy » Sep 25, 2018 9:04 am

Ok but we should be discussing Pence's beliefs not Wortship's.
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Re: Mike Pence: "Evolution is just a theory"

#167  Postby Sendraks » Sep 25, 2018 9:16 am

Then just replace "Wortfish" with "Pence" and you're there.

Although, I suspect Wortfish is probably a more capable debater on this subject than Pence is. Which I admit is setting the bar somewhere below the bedrock for "capable."
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Re: Mike Pence: "Evolution is just a theory"

#168  Postby Rumraket » Sep 25, 2018 10:26 am

Wortfish wrote:
Rumraket wrote:
Calilasseia wrote:Wrong. It does imply universal common descent, courtesy of the fact that current populations inherited their genetic constitution from relevant ancestors.

No c'mon. The fact that macroevolution is a fact, as in we know that speciation happens and that species can radically change morphology and biochemistry through evolutionary change on geological time-spans, does not itself imply that all species currently known must share a common genealogical realationship.

There is evidence that they do, but the mere definition of the term macroevolution isn't evidence for anything. Macroevolution could be true, while universal common descent could be false. There could concievably have been multiple independent origins of life, and different parts of extant biodiversity could in such a scenario trace their ancestry to independent origins. We could at least in principle have two parallel trees of life, or even more.


In other words, life could be polyphyletyic rather than monophyletic.

Yeah it could be, but it isn't. The fact that all species share common descent is known to a greater level of certainty than any other theory in science. We can say in quantifiable terms that we know all known species share common descent, to a greater level of certainty, than we can say we know the strength of the electric charge of an electron. Or the distance to the sun, or how much you weigh

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#independent_consilience

Here we commence to beat Pauling's poor 40-year dead horse. If there is one historical phylogenetic tree which unites all species in an objective genealogy, all separate lines of evidence should converge on the same tree (Penny et al. 1982; Penny et al. 1991; Zuckerkandl and Pauling 1965). Independently derived phylogenetic trees of all organisms should match each other with a high degree of statistical significance.
(...)
So, how well do phylogenetic trees from morphological studies match the trees made from independent molecular studies? There are over 1038 different possible ways to arrange the 30 major taxa represented in Figure 1 into a phylogenetic tree (see Table 1.3.1; Felsenstein 1982; Li 1997, p. 102). In spite of these odds, the relationships given in Figure 1, as determined from morphological characters, are completely congruent with the relationships determined independently from cytochrome c molecular studies (for consensus phylogenies from pre-molecular studies see Carter 1954, Figure 1, p. 13; Dodson 1960, Figures 43, p. 125, and Figure 50, p. 150; Osborn 1918, Figure 42, p. 161; Haeckel 1898, p. 55; Gregory 1951, Fig. opposite title page; for phylogenies from the early cytochrome c studies see McLaughlin and Dayhoff 1973; Dickerson and Timkovich 1975, pp. 438-439). Speaking quantitatively, independent morphological and molecular measurements such as these have determined the standard phylogenetic tree, as shown in Figure 1, to better than 38 decimal places. This phenomenal corroboration of universal common descent is referred to as the "twin nested hierarchy". This term is something of a misnomer, however, since there are in reality multiple nested hierarchies, independently determined from many sources of data.


... However, as illustrated in Figure 1, the standard phylogenetic tree is known to 38 decimal places, which is a much greater precision than that of even the most well-determined physical constants. For comparison, the charge of the electron is known to only seven decimal places, the Planck constant is known to only eight decimal places, the mass of the neutron, proton, and electron are all known to only nine decimal places, and the universal gravitational constant has been determined to only three decimal places.

My emphasis.

If you pick out subsets of the universal tree, and focus on particular clades, the corroboration for common descent rises astronomically. Looking just at primates, the phylogenetic tree of living primates (almost 200 species) has been obervationally verified to an accuracy of over 300 decimal places. In short, you're a fucking monkey mate. Get over it.
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Re: Mike Pence: "Evolution is just a theory"

#169  Postby Scot Dutchy » Sep 25, 2018 12:10 pm

Talk about de-rail.
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Re: Mike Pence: "Evolution is just a theory"

#170  Postby aban57 » Sep 25, 2018 4:55 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:Talk about de-rail.


Nope, it hasn't changed in the last 4h since you first complained.
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Re: Mike Pence: "Evolution is just a theory"

#171  Postby Wortfish » Oct 23, 2018 1:30 pm

If the Republicans, as expected, hold the Senate in the November midterms, then we could see another conservative judge appointed to the Supreme Court when Ginsburg likely steps down next year. As well as overturning the ruling on abortion, we could see another ruling allowing creationism to be taught alongside Darwinism: creationism was, in fact, taught before 1859 in public schools so the precedent is there. Failing that, creationists might go to the SC to ask that Darwinism not be taught at all because it is a "religion" and so violates the Establishment clause. We live in interesting times!
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Re: Mike Pence: "Evolution is just a theory"

#172  Postby Animavore » Oct 23, 2018 1:47 pm

Creationism has been struck down by Christian, Republican judges before. It doesn't stand a chance.

Good luck showing biological science is a religion also. It doesn't fall under any definition of the term.
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Re: Mike Pence: "Evolution is just a theory"

#173  Postby The_Piper » Oct 23, 2018 3:21 pm

"Darwinism". :lol:
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Re: Mike Pence: "Evolution is just a theory"

#174  Postby aban57 » Oct 23, 2018 5:42 pm

Wortfish wrote:If the Republicans, as expected, hold the Senate in the November midterms, then we could see another conservative judge appointed to the Supreme Court when Ginsburg likely steps down next year. As well as overturning the ruling on abortion, we could see another ruling allowing creationism to be taught alongside Darwinism: creationism was, in fact, taught before 1859 in public schools so the precedent is there. Failing that, creationists might go to the SC to ask that Darwinism not be taught at all because it is a "religion" and so violates the Establishment clause. We live in interesting times!


We also used to teach the Earth is flat. Should we go back there too ?
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Re: Mike Pence: "Evolution is just a theory"

#175  Postby Rumraket » Oct 23, 2018 6:17 pm

Don't give him any ideas, he'd plausibly answer yes to that.
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Re: Mike Pence: "Evolution is just a theory"

#176  Postby Blackadder » Oct 23, 2018 7:19 pm

Wortfish wrote:If the Republicans, as expected, hold the Senate in the November midterms, then we could see another conservative judge appointed to the Supreme Court when Ginsburg likely steps down next year. As well as overturning the ruling on abortion, we could see another ruling allowing creationism religious fuckwittery to be taught alongside Darwinism science: creationism religious fuckwittery was, in fact, taught before 1859 in public schools so the precedent is there. Failing that, creationists backward ignoramuses might go to the SC to ask that Darwinism science not be taught at all because it is a "religion" and so violates the Establishment clause. We live in interesting times!


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Re: Mike Pence: "Evolution is just a theory"

#177  Postby laklak » Oct 23, 2018 7:59 pm

Wortfish wrote:If the Republicans, as expected, hold the Senate in the November midterms, then we could see another conservative judge appointed to the Supreme Court when Ginsburg likely steps down next year.... (snipped for common decency)


We've always had reactionary, anti-science, religious fanatics filling young heads with bullshit, but we've still got the ISS, computers, internet, cell phones, organ transplants, genetic therapies, CERN, and NASA. We're going to go to Mars in the not too distant future (hell, I might live to see it). None of those accomplishments are based on or in anyway influenced by your absurd mythology. It's just a distraction, a fly buzzing around the rancid shitpile of superstition that is theism. In the long run your dogmatic superstitions don't matter, scientific progress will continue in spite of you.
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Re: Mike Pence: "Evolution is just a theory"

#178  Postby Macdoc » Oct 23, 2018 10:00 pm

Mind you the shrubs ban on stem cell research and not using fetal tissue set things back a decade
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Re: Mike Pence: "Evolution is just a theory"

#179  Postby Wortfish » Oct 31, 2018 3:25 am

Animavore wrote:Creationism has been struck down by Christian, Republican judges before. It doesn't stand a chance.

Good luck showing biological science is a religion also. It doesn't fall under any definition of the term.


That has already been done for me by Professor Michael Ruse, himself an evolutionist and Darwinist in his book, Darwinism as Religion: What Literature Tells Us about Evolution: https://global.oup.com/academic/product ... b&lang=en&
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Re: Mike Pence: "Evolution is just a theory"

#180  Postby Animavore » Oct 31, 2018 3:30 am

Wortfish wrote:
Animavore wrote:Creationism has been struck down by Christian, Republican judges before. It doesn't stand a chance.

Good luck showing biological science is a religion also. It doesn't fall under any definition of the term.


That has already been done for me by Professor Michael Ruse, himself an evolutionist and Darwinist in his book, Darwinism as Religion: What Literature Tells Us about Evolution: https://global.oup.com/academic/product ... b&lang=en&

Like I said. Good luck with that.
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