Mike Pence: "Evolution is just a theory"

Creationist VP-elect of the USA

Incl. intelligent design, belief in divine creation

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Re: Mike Pence: "Evolution is just a theory"

#201  Postby Wortfish » Nov 07, 2018 11:14 pm

SkyMutt wrote:All publicly funded schools in the US are subject to the Constitution of the United States (including the Establishment Clause of the 1st Amendment), contrary to the false assertion made by W. fish above (see "Knowing the Equal Protection Clause" | Laws.com).


The 1st amendment merely states that the United States won't have an official religion. It also guarantees freedom of speech, such as in the classroom. It does not ban the discussion of ideas pertaining to religion or non-religion.
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Re: Mike Pence: "Evolution is just a theory"

#202  Postby Thommo » Nov 07, 2018 11:17 pm

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances
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Re: Mike Pence: "Evolution is just a theory"

#203  Postby Wortfish » Nov 08, 2018 2:36 pm

Thommo wrote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances


You have to understand that, at the time, European nations had an official religion or established church. The first amendment clarifies that Congress cannot establish any official religion. It doesn't mean that prayers cannot be allowed in school or that religious ideas cannot be explored. Moreover, the first amendment says nothing of the legislatures of the individual states, only of Congress (the national government).
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Re: Mike Pence: "Evolution is just a theory"

#204  Postby zulumoose » Nov 08, 2018 2:45 pm

It doesn't mean that prayers cannot be allowed in school or that religious ideas cannot be explored.


It does mean that government resources and time should not be used to promote one religion.
Allowing prayer during free time at school is one thing, having official school time, equipment, funds and staff allocated to promoting a religion or officially associating a public institution with one religion is another thing entirely.
You do not have freedom of religion in an environment where one religion is officially promoted. Freedom of religion requires that there be freedom from religion, otherwise it is as empty as supporting segregation by trying to claim "separate but equal" it just doesn't ring true.
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Re: Mike Pence: "Evolution is just a theory"

#205  Postby Thommo » Nov 08, 2018 2:58 pm

Wortfish wrote:Some stuff.


This post merely states an admission that Wortfish knows he's completely wrong, and thanks me for the correction.

Should he disagree with this interpretation of his post, and perhaps even refer to the actual text of the post with indication that that actual text does not say what I say it does, I will refer back to this post where the actual text of the 1st amendment wasn't considered adequate rebuttal of the assertion that it merely states something it does not.

If this seems like a ludicrous way of holding discussion, which allows me to say whatever I want and attribute it to any source I like merely by my own fiat, then I'd be inclined to agree.
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Re: Mike Pence: "Evolution is just a theory"

#206  Postby felltoearth » Nov 09, 2018 3:12 pm

zulumoose wrote:
It does mean that government resources and time should shall not be used to promote one religion.


No should about it.
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Re: Mike Pence: "Evolution is just a theory"

#207  Postby Wortfish » Nov 09, 2018 5:33 pm

zulumoose wrote:
It doesn't mean that prayers cannot be allowed in school or that religious ideas cannot be explored.


It does mean that government resources and time should not be used to promote one religion.
Allowing prayer during free time at school is one thing, having official school time, equipment, funds and staff allocated to promoting a religion or officially associating a public institution with one religion is another thing entirely.
You do not have freedom of religion in an environment where one religion is officially promoted. Freedom of religion requires that there be freedom from religion, otherwise it is as empty as supporting segregation by trying to claim "separate but equal" it just doesn't ring true.


In the U.S army, there are chaplains who administer religious services for those who wish it. There should also be chaplains at public schools and prayer rooms for those wishing to practise their religion. Anything else is just secular authoritarianism.
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Re: Mike Pence:

#208  Postby Wortfish » Nov 09, 2018 5:35 pm

Ruth Bader Ginsburg rushed to hospital: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-46142226

If the liberal SC judge dies or is forced to retire, then a 2/3 conservative majority in the SC will usher in the teaching of creationism, the cancellation of same sex marriages and a ban on abortion.
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Re: Mike Pence: "Evolution is just a theory"

#209  Postby laklak » Nov 09, 2018 5:43 pm

No they won't, but dream on.
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Re: Mike Pence: "Evolution is just a theory"

#210  Postby zulumoose » Nov 09, 2018 6:51 pm

Wortfish wrote:

In the U.S army, there are chaplains who administer religious services for those who wish it. There should also be chaplains at public schools and prayer rooms for those wishing to practise their religion. Anything else is just secular authoritarianism.


The military regularly requires people to leave their lives behind and become immersed in their world 24/7 for months at a time, they have to make reasonable accomodations for some things that are part of everyday life for believers or lose support. By the same token some facilities should be available at institutions like boarding schools, where outside life is put on hold. Shoehorning it into public day schools is something else, home life is available for such practices, as are breaks and lunches for voluntary practices, but never should someone who does not want such things have it forced on them.

Using taxes to provide religion to the public is establishment, using government employee time to support religion is establishment, preaching religion to a captive audience in a school assembly, for e.g. is establishment. These things are authoritarian and are also against freedom of religion. Keeping religion ENTIRELY VOLUNTARY and privately funded is the opposite of authoritarianism, and is the best representation of freedom.
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Re: Mike Pence: "Evolution is just a theory"

#211  Postby Rumraket » Nov 09, 2018 7:15 pm

zulumoose wrote:
Wortfish wrote:

In the U.S army, there are chaplains who administer religious services for those who wish it. There should also be chaplains at public schools and prayer rooms for those wishing to practise their religion. Anything else is just secular authoritarianism.


The military regularly requires people to leave their lives behind and become immersed in their world 24/7 for months at a time, they have to make reasonable accomodations for some things that are part of everyday life for believers or lose support. By the same token some facilities should be available at institutions like boarding schools, where outside life is put on hold. Shoehorning it into public day schools is something else, home life is available for such practices, as are breaks and lunches for voluntary practices, but never should someone who does not want such things have it forced on them.

:this:

There's a significant difference between requiring people to leave their everyday lives and basically be "at work" all of their time when they serve in the military, and spending a few hours every day at school and then being free to participate in whatever you wish to do for the rest of the day.
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Re: Mike Pence: "Evolution is just a theory"

#212  Postby Rumraket » Nov 09, 2018 7:30 pm

Wortfish wrote:
Thommo wrote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances


You have to understand that, at the time, European nations had an official religion or established church. The first amendment clarifies that Congress cannot establish any official religion. It doesn't mean that prayers cannot be allowed in school or that religious ideas cannot be explored.

Sure, but there's a difference between ALLOWING people to pray in school if they so wish, and having it be part of mandatory instruction in class. You are allowed to spend your break time praying and participating in whatever religious gathering you want, but the school cannot strictly legally endorse or advocate participation in such activities during class hours because that will inherently constitute religious favoritism. Some religious views would have to be favored over others.

I'm pretty sure you don't want mandatory Khornate Cultism (with it's associated collection of blood through acts of violence, and harvesting of skulls for the throne of the Lord of blood, war, and murder), or C'thulu-worship taught to your children, do you? Or how about we gather to to pray for Tom Cruise successful transfer to the alien overlords of Scientology? Hey, maybe you're insane enough that you do. Thx but nothx.

Besides, there really is such a thing as comparative religion as part of history and sociology, where people are taught about the existence and history of the world's major religions. There's absolutely no reason to stuff that shit into science class or to shove praying and worship into the curriculum when people can do that in their own sparetime as much as they want to.
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Re: Mike Pence: "Evolution is just a theory"

#213  Postby SkyMutt » Nov 10, 2018 2:12 am

Wortfish wrote:
SkyMutt wrote:All publicly funded schools in the US are subject to the Constitution of the United States (including the Establishment Clause of the 1st Amendment), contrary to the false assertion made by W. fish above (see "Knowing the Equal Protection Clause" | Laws.com).


The 1st amendment merely states that the United States won't have an official religion. It also guarantees freedom of speech, such as in the classroom. It does not ban the discussion of ideas pertaining to religion or non-religion.


You are correct that discussion of religion is perfectly acceptable in those schools. There is of course a difference between promoting religion and discussion of religion. Teaching Creationism is teaching religious dogma. By the law of the land, publicly funded schools are not allowed to promote religious dogma to their students.

The 1st Amendment does more than prevent an establishment of religion (state-sponsored religion). It prevents any laws respecting such an establishment, for instance a state law decreeing that Creationism will be taught in public schools. Through the 14th Amendment, the rights and protections enumerated in the US Constitution and its amendments are held by all citizens of the country; states may not legislate those rights and protections away. This includes the 1st Amendment's protection from established religion. You asserted that "The constitution only prohibits the establishment of religion or non-religion by the national government, as is the case in the UK. It says nothing about what schools at the state level can teach." You were incorrect.
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Re: Mike Pence: "Evolution is just a theory"

#214  Postby laklak » Nov 10, 2018 4:16 am

Now don't go confusing the issue with pesky facts, SkyMutt.
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Re: Mike Pence: "Evolution is just a theory"

#215  Postby Blackadder » Nov 10, 2018 6:45 am

SkyMutt wrote:
Wortfish wrote:
SkyMutt wrote:All publicly funded schools in the US are subject to the Constitution of the United States (including the Establishment Clause of the 1st Amendment), contrary to the false assertion made by W. fish above (see "Knowing the Equal Protection Clause" | Laws.com).


The 1st amendment merely states that the United States won't have an official religion. It also guarantees freedom of speech, such as in the classroom. It does not ban the discussion of ideas pertaining to religion or non-religion.


You are correct that discussion of religion is perfectly acceptable in those schools. There is of course a difference between promoting religion and discussion of religion. Teaching Creationism is teaching religious dogma. By the law of the land, publicly funded schools are not allowed to promote religious dogma to their students.

The 1st Amendment does more than prevent an establishment of religion (state-sponsored religion). It prevents any laws respecting such an establishment, for instance a state law decreeing that Creationism will be taught in public schools. Through the 14th Amendment, the rights and protections enumerated in the US Constitution and its amendments are held by all citizens of the country; states may not legislate those rights and protections away. This includes the 1st Amendment's protection from established religion. You asserted that "The constitution only prohibits the establishment of religion or non-religion by the national government, as is the case in the UK. It says nothing about what schools at the state level can teach." You were incorrect.


Thank you for laying out some facts. I suspect they will go the way of previous facts fired at your addressee: in one ear and out the other without interacting with the matter in between.
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Re: Mike Pence: "Evolution is just a theory"

#216  Postby OlivierK » Nov 10, 2018 9:35 am

the matter in between

You seem to be making an assumption here that may not be justified by the evidence available.
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Re: Mike Pence: "Evolution is just a theory"

#217  Postby Wortfish » Nov 10, 2018 12:50 pm

Apparently, Ginsburg is due to retire early next year: https://www.smobserved.com/story/2018/0 ... /3658.html

There are also rumours that Stephe Bryer, aged 80, will also step down. Sonia Sotomayor may also be forced to retire due to diabetes. If all 3 liberal SC judges were replaced with conservative ones, there would be an 8-1 majority in the latter's favour.

It is the SC that interprets the U.S constitution, not members of RatSkep.
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Re: Mike Pence: "Evolution is just a theory"

#218  Postby Fallible » Nov 10, 2018 1:41 pm

Why are you so interested in the US anyway?
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Re: Mike Pence: "Evolution is just a theory"

#219  Postby Scot Dutchy » Nov 10, 2018 1:47 pm

Preparing for when England becomes the 51st state. :lol:

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Re: Mike Pence: "Evolution is just a theory"

#220  Postby Rumraket » Nov 10, 2018 2:39 pm

Wortfish wrote:Apparently, Ginsburg is due to retire early next year: https://www.smobserved.com/story/2018/0 ... /3658.html

There are also rumours that Stephe Bryer, aged 80, will also step down. Sonia Sotomayor may also be forced to retire due to diabetes. If all 3 liberal SC judges were replaced

That sounds likely? :roll:

But okay, you also believe in talking snakes and invisible wizards that will make you not actually die when you actually die, so I'll just accept that you're prone to wishful thinking.

Wortfish wrote: with conservative ones, there would be an 8-1 majority in the latter's favour.

It is the SC that interprets the U.S constitution, not members of RatSkep.

Wow gee really? Clearly that was in doubt.
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