Paleosols vs YEC

Incl. intelligent design, belief in divine creation

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Paleosols vs YEC

#1  Postby Itsdemtitans » May 28, 2020 1:30 am

Well, it has been a while, hasn't it? I hope you all are doing well! I know I certainly am. Your high school idiot who happened to like arguing with creationists is halfway to becoming an actual geologist now.

Anyways, I have something I wanted to share with you guys. It regards the issue of fossil soils, known as paleosols, and how they're a bit of a problem for so-called "Flood Geology" and YEC in general.

According to Young Earth Creationist (YEC) proponents, the majority of fossil bearing sedimentary rock were deposited in a one year long global flood. These strata represent the rapid and often chaotic accumulation of sediments, brought on by massive tsunamis, turbidites and other mass flow events, hypercanes, or even bolide impacts and massive volcanism. They overwhelmingly expect to never find evidence of gentle and slow processes, or of normal everyday conditions.

Of course, that very evidence is commonplace in the geologic record. One of the most common examples is that of paleosols (fossil soils). Paleosols represent periods of weathering, where exposed rock was eroded and transformed into soil that was later buried and lithified. Often these paleosols contain abundant evidence of in-situ plant growth (in the form or roots) as well as animal burrows showcasing normal conditions, not a global flood. These paleosols often occur in successive horizons as well; showing vast amounts of time passed to permit the formation of many soils in one location...time that neither Flood Geology or YEC have at their disposal.

YEC proponents have attempted to give several responses to the issue of paleosols in an attempt to salvage flood geology. Their arguments are summarize briefly below:

1. The rocks formed from sediments that were exposed to volcanic acid rain, which chemically leached the materials to resemble paleosols either during or shortly after the Flood.

2. The layering in the rocks are not soil horizons, but are actually individual Flood layers, and these layers just happened to repeatedly deposit in the exact orders that mimic horizons in paleosols.

3. The rocks are not paleosols, but formed from hydrothermal solutions after sediment burial and during diagenesis, or from magmas, metamorphism, or other chemical or physical diagenetic processes (such as oxidation, reduction, lithification, etc).

None of these objections do anything to refute the identity of many documented paleosols, as Dr. Kevin Henke has shown with examples from the Morrison Formation, Vega Formation, and many other formations. Paleosols from these and many other localities contain unambiguous evidence that they are indeed paleosols. For example, twenty paleosols from the Vega Formation have been noted to contain a variety of A, B, and C horizons, as well as well-preserved organic rootlets, burrows, carbonate nodules, deeply penetrating root traces within fifteen separate A horizons, and other features. These and other paleosols show no evidence of any hydrothermal or volcanic alteration, nor any evidence of metamorphism or diagenesis via post-burial magmatism, in their chemistry and mineralogy.

So, the fact remains that none of the mechanisms proposed by creationists to explain away paleosols in their “model” are actually a problem with regards to identifying genuine paleosols. As Henke put it excellently in his essay on the Morrison Formation:

“However, paleosol features can be distinguished from diagenetic, hydrothermal, metamorphic and igneous features on the basis of their chemistry, mineralogy, and textures. For example, large differences in stable isotope results between dinosaur remains and surrounding sediments can rule out substantial diagenetic alteration (Bojar et al. 2010). That is, diagenetic reactions would tend to equalize isotope results in adjacent materials. Also, the mineralogy of the sediments can rule out diagenetic, hydrothermal, metamorphic, and igneous processes (Jennings et al. 2011, p. 41). For example, hydrothermal solutions produce minerals, such as primary tourmaline and epidote, which are not present in sedimentary paleosols or other sedimentary rocks.”


He also sums the situation up nicely:

“That is, it’s highly improbable that sedimentological processes would consistently act to produce numerous clay, calcite, and organic deposits at different stratigraphic levels that just fortuitously happen to have the same order, mineralogy and chemistry as A, B and C horizons and other pedosol features. It’s far more likely that the paleosols are real and Flood geology is wrong.”


For much more specific details regarding the paleosols at specific localities, and how they do not line up with YEC attempts to dismiss them, I highly recommend you check out the linked essays. And furthermore, I hope you all enjoyed this little blip!
"If evidence could shake the Protestant faith, then there wouldn't be a Protestant faith" ~Donovan Lafferty

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Re: Paleosols vs YEC

#2  Postby campermon » May 28, 2020 7:10 am

Great stuff! :thumbup:
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Re: Paleosols vs YEC

#3  Postby Ironclad » May 28, 2020 9:00 am

Good stuff; welcome back; good luck with the studies!
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Re: Paleosols vs YEC

#4  Postby theropod_V_2.0 » May 28, 2020 9:50 am

...and incised meanders.

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Re: Paleosols vs YEC

#5  Postby Svartalf » May 28, 2020 9:55 am

thanks for the article, I knew nothing about that and will be less stupid tonight.
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Re: Paleosols vs YEC

#6  Postby chairman bill » May 28, 2020 10:18 am

Ah, but the Devil magically put them there to lead us all astray. Take that, Evilooshinauts!
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Re: Paleosols vs YEC

#7  Postby JustStarDust » Jun 23, 2020 7:16 am

I'd like to know more about Mantle Convection.

https://research-groups.usask.ca/butler ... lEvolution

Image

I'm still trying to find the geologists who said that every rock on the surface of Earth, has been to the core and back - at least 4 times (I've heard 2 of them say it, as well as Red Elk). This pretty much hurts both arguments? YEC may not be able to explain 4b years of mantle cycle, and also the fossils which prove 4b years of mantle cycle, could be all destroyed by now? It's a little bit 'loose', or a 'BS' theory if you'd like to call it that.

Is it true, that the crust of Earth, is spinning in a different direction than the core of the Earth? I remember someone saying 'if that's true then Earth is like a power generator'. And also, it's at least some physical evidence of something huge hitting Earth's crust a long time ago (and some people think it was the moon, or a water planet called 'Tiamat'? Or some theory like that told by 'Zecharia Sitchin' - who most claim to be a fraud.) Either way, if that's all nonsense... Wow, Mantle Convection is amazing.
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Re: Paleosols vs YEC

#8  Postby Fenrir » Jun 23, 2020 7:25 am

Someone said that. Somewhere. Sometime. That makes this all very interesting. :what:
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Re: Paleosols vs YEC

#9  Postby JustStarDust » Jun 23, 2020 8:29 am

Fenrir wrote:Someone said that. Somewhere. Sometime. That makes this all very interesting. :what:


Indeed. Plus, even if I did have the names of people with geologist credentials, it doesn't mean that you will, or should believe them, right? So names can be seen as pointless then. May as well not even try? :roll:
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Re: Paleosols vs YEC

#10  Postby Fenrir » Jun 23, 2020 8:41 am

JustStarDust wrote:
Fenrir wrote:Someone said that. Somewhere. Sometime. That makes this all very interesting. :what:


Indeed. Plus, even if I did have the names of people with geologist credentials, it doesn't mean that you will, or should believe them, right? So names can be seen as pointless then. May as well not even try? :roll:


Um, no. Names of people who have published their work in recognized geological journals and had it generally accepted by peer review. That would be something to consider. People with actual names so as others reading of their brilliant paradigm shattering discoveries can look them up and review their previous work and how their work has been received by others.

You really aren't very good at this, maybe stick to jaqing off till you can manage not to completely flub that before taking on more difficult tasks.
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Re: Paleosols vs YEC

#11  Postby JustStarDust » Jun 23, 2020 9:12 am

Fenrir wrote:
JustStarDust wrote:
Fenrir wrote:Someone said that. Somewhere. Sometime. That makes this all very interesting. :what:


Indeed. Plus, even if I did have the names of people with geologist credentials, it doesn't mean that you will, or should believe them, right? So names can be seen as pointless then. May as well not even try? :roll:


Um, no. Names of people who have published their work in recognized geological journals and had it generally accepted by peer review. That would be something to consider. People with actual names so as others reading of their brilliant paradigm shattering discoveries can look them up and review their previous work and how their work has been received by others.

You really aren't very good at this, maybe stick to jaqing off till you can manage not to completely flub that before taking on more difficult tasks.


Hey, I haven't given up on finding the names to people in the documentaries about Earth. It's just, that I have a lot of videos to sort through. I do understand the more difficult tasks, but why not just ask questions 1st? I didn't expect such back-lash to various topics. But I understand why. There's a ton of frauds out there, and nobody likes the hack frauds who get away with ripping people off.
At least I'm not NAPPing it off. (Not Asking People Properly -ing) :mrgreen:
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Re: Paleosols vs YEC

#12  Postby newolder » Jun 23, 2020 9:29 am

^You have just quoted yourself where you were not asking people properly. :doh:

Re: Mantle convection
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Re: Paleosols vs YEC

#13  Postby Sgt Kelly » Jun 23, 2020 9:34 am

JustStarDust wrote:It's just, that I have a lot of videos to sort through.


Stop watching guff on the internet and read some books.
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Re: Paleosols vs YEC

#14  Postby theropod_V_2.0 » Jun 23, 2020 12:03 pm

Maybe, just maybe, use something like Google Scholar to search for actual peer reviewed papers instead of YouTube videos.

I will not be drawn into silly exchanges about how fossils survive petrological recycling. They do.

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