Proof Against the Christian Creator God

A version of theodicy disproves the existence of the Christian God

Incl. intelligent design, belief in divine creation

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Proof Against the Christian Creator God

#1  Postby AlanF » Nov 07, 2019 4:01 pm

I'm writing a long essay debunking 60 years worth of anti-evolution rhetoric from the Jehovah's Witnesses and related Fundamentalist religions. At one point I invoke a narrow part of theodicy, as follows:

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A Fatal Flaw In the Argument That the Loving Christian God Is the Creator of Everything

The argument that “design requires a Supreme Designer” and that that Designer is the Christian/Hebrew God has a major flaw: according to the New Testament passage at 1 John 4:8, 16 “God is love”. As the Creator and Parent of all living things, and as one so lovingly cognizant of every creature that, according to Matthew 10:29:

Two sparrows sell for a coin of small value, do they not? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground without your Father’s knowledge.


The history of the last 550 million years of life, with the constant conflict between predators and prey and all the pain and suffering that history entails, proves unarguably that any postulated Creator is far from loving. A loving Creator, by definition, could not create a world in which the daily lot of so many life forms is to suffer a nature “red in tooth and claw”. Thus, either the God of the Bible is not loving, or he does not exist.

An alternative is that there are one or more other sorts of Creators, but it is obvious that none of these are the Bible’s God, and that they are not loving. There might be any number of these sorts of ‘creators’ or ‘gods’, such as a Deistic god who created the universe and then went off to tend to other business, or some entity altogether different. Some Christians assign the word “God” to these; creation by them can be called forms of theistic evolution.
*======*======*======*======*======*======*

I'm not getting into the details of arguments about theodicy, because my intended audience is unsophisticated and would understand very little. My narrow and simple point also avoids some of the rationalizations that Christian apologists usually invoke in trying to defend their beliefs.

I'd like to get comments from people on my argument. Are there flaws that Christian defenders can exploit? Etc.

Thanks,
Alan
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Re: Proof Against the Christian Creator God

#2  Postby Svartalf » Nov 07, 2019 4:43 pm

Fuck 'loving' god, a loving, all powerful superior being would not let so much misery happen in its own creation.
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Re: Proof Against the Christian Creator God

#3  Postby aban57 » Nov 07, 2019 4:45 pm

Your argument is nothing new. Epicurus wrotre that, about 2300 years ago :

God, he says, either wishes to take away evils, and is unable; or He is able, and is unwilling; or He is neither willing nor able, or He is both willing and able. If He is willing and is unable, He is feeble, which is not in accordance with the character of God; if He is able and unwilling, He is envious, which is equally at variance with God; if He is neither willing nor able, He is both envious and feeble, and therefore not God; if He is both willing and able, which alone is suitable to God, from what source then are evils? Or why does He not remove them?


Also, you seem to start with the premise that Christians can be sensible to rational arguments. Good luck finding convincing evidence for that.
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Re: Proof Against the Christian Creator God

#4  Postby scott1328 » Nov 07, 2019 5:40 pm

But what if, the christian god is an asshole and loves lying and suffering, good luck disproving that.
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Re: Proof Against the Christian Creator God

#5  Postby Svartalf » Nov 07, 2019 6:03 pm

If it exists, it's such a big asshole it must have shat the universe wholesale.
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Re: Proof Against the Christian Creator God

#6  Postby AlanF » Nov 07, 2019 7:23 pm

aban57 wrote:Your argument is nothing new. Epicurus wrotre that, about 2300 years ago :
...


Yes, I"m aware of that. But much of my intended audience is too unsophisticated to understand Epicurus. That's why I'm breaking it down as simply as I know how. This avoids the problem of defining "evil" and shifts the burden to the reader in the sense that most everyone these days possesses what I call an "Eeewww factor", namely, an aversion to seeing the blood and gore of a leopard devouring a live wild boar.

Also, you seem to start with the premise that Christians can be sensible to rational arguments. Good luck finding convincing evidence for that.


I'm well aware of that, but many who read my essay will be ex-JWs who have already thrown off the thrall of their religious masters but still retain a Christian mindset.
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Re: Proof Against the Christian Creator God

#7  Postby Spearthrower » Nov 07, 2019 7:45 pm

The history of the last 550 million years of life, with the constant conflict between predators and prey and all the pain and suffering that history entails, proves unarguably that any postulated Creator is far from loving. A loving Creator, by definition, could not create a world in which the daily lot of so many life forms is to suffer a nature “red in tooth and claw”. Thus, either the God of the Bible is not loving, or he does not exist.


I've written extensively about this in the past as it absolutely impossible to reconcile.

However, the faithful will reconcile it in the most banal and mindless ways. They won't ever engage with this honestly; they'll either become incredibly ignorant and unfeeling, or they'll start asking you to come up with better ways then pretending that whatever you say isn't possible thereby defeating the concept of the Creator god they buy into.

It's actually a crushing argument, which is why fundies can only seek to wave it away. It also makes for very uncomfortable reading for theistic evolutionists, but I usually leave them alone as they're at least not out to deny knowledge.
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Re: Proof Against the Christian Creator God

#8  Postby AlanF » Nov 08, 2019 8:53 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
The history of the last 550 million years of life, with the constant conflict between predators and prey and all the pain and suffering that history entails ... Thus, either the God of the Bible is not loving, or he does not exist.


I've written extensively about this in the past as it absolutely impossible to reconcile.


Can you point me to your writings, on this forum or elsewhere?

However, the faithful will reconcile it in the most banal and mindless ways. They won't ever engage with this honestly; they'll either become incredibly ignorant and unfeeling, or they'll start asking you to come up with better ways then pretending that whatever you say isn't possible thereby defeating the concept of the Creator god they buy into.


I know. I presented this to a Christian once, who then argued that animals don't actually suffer because they don't feel pain. I challenged him, but he came up with all manner of ridiculous rationalizations, much like flat-earthers and others who accept pseudoscience do.

It's actually a crushing argument, which is why fundies can only seek to wave it away. It also makes for very uncomfortable reading for theistic evolutionists, but I usually leave them alone as they're at least not out to deny knowledge.


;)
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Re: Proof Against the Christian Creator God

#9  Postby laklak » Nov 09, 2019 7:34 pm

I don't engage with them, because it's all fucking nonsense on the face of it. To even address it in rational terms is a waste of time. There are people who believe in elves. Hell, there are people who think they're elves - Google "elfkin". No one bothers to argue with them, because we (most of us, anyway) realize they're fucking crazy and there's no point in wasting our time. The same holds true of people who've been abducted by aliens. What's the point? They've already shown they are incapable of rational thought, so why do we think that approaching them in a logical, rational, scientific manner is going to make the slightest bit of fucking difference? There is no difference in a Jesus Freak, elfkin, or alien abductee, they're all deluded fools.
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Re: Proof Against the Christian Creator God

#10  Postby AlanF » Nov 09, 2019 7:57 pm

laklak wrote:I don't engage with them, because it's all fucking nonsense on the face of it. To even address it in rational terms is a waste of time. ...


I understand all that, since I've been battling some of these people since 1992. I might be deluding myself somewhat, but I've received enough feedback to know that my efforts have convinced several hundred Jehovah's Witnesses to give up on their cult. At a minimum, that's satisfying.

As mentioned, my present project is writing a long essay, in the form of a letter to the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, taking the Watchtower Society to task for publishing decades of misrepresentations and lies about evolution, the trustworthiness of the Bible, etc. Of course, men such as those are incorrigible and firmly set in believing their own bullshit, so this essay is really for the thousands of ex-JWs who are on the fence about what to do after leaving their cult. I've seen that an inordinate number retain the creationist mindset, and become fanatical Evangelicals or the like. I think that at least some of these people can be educated enough by solid science, as well as pointed philosophical arguments, to at least examine what clear thinkers like Dawkins, Harris and others have to say. It pains me to see ex-JW relatives, for example, spend their last couple of decades expecting to meet loved ones "in the resurrection". Far better, I think, to view life realistically.
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Re: Proof Against the Christian Creator God

#11  Postby Alan B » Nov 09, 2019 8:22 pm

I've mentioned this before:
JWs arrive
"Where is God?" I asked.
"All around" they said waving their arms about.
"Read Luke 17:20-21" I said.
They went very silent after that.

I should have asked them if they thought Jesus was lying...
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Re: Proof Against the Christian Creator God

#12  Postby laklak » Nov 09, 2019 8:26 pm

I'm glad there are people like you who try, I'm sure it helps some of those who are questioning their faith. I just can't be arsed with it. There are JWs in my extended family. They are perhaps the most hypocritical assholes I've ever dealt with, I'd rather spend time with a black mamba. You know where you stand with a mamba, and unlike a door knocker they'll leave you alone if you don't fuck with them.
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Re: Proof Against the Christian Creator God

#13  Postby SafeAsMilk » Nov 09, 2019 9:31 pm

Alan B wrote:I've mentioned this before:
JWs arrive
"Where is God?" I asked.
"All around" they said waving their arms about.
"Read Luke 17:20-21" I said.
They went very silent after that.

I should have asked them if they thought Jesus was lying...

Not sure I follow. Saying that God is all around doesn't seem much different from saying God is amongst or within you. If he was within or amongst you, he'd be all around, right?
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Re: Proof Against the Christian Creator God

#14  Postby Gila Guerilla » Nov 10, 2019 2:31 am

There are umpteen variants of the Christian god, as delineated by various sects and denominations. From the POV of any one of those believers, does your argument cover their god version? Do they for example believe that Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden is literally true, or do they accept it as a metaphor for something? It must make a difference from their POV.
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Re: Proof Against the Christian Creator God

#15  Postby SafeAsMilk » Nov 10, 2019 2:38 am

I bet if they thought about why they rejected the other and applied it to their own belief, they'd see why it doesn't make a difference.
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Re: Proof Against the Christian Creator God

#16  Postby Hermit » Nov 10, 2019 3:44 am

SafeAsMilk wrote:I bet if they thought about why they rejected the other and applied it to their own belief, they'd see why it doesn't make a difference.

You'd lose. "No true Scotsman" will be applied before you can say "informal fallacy". The other - whatever it is - will be written off as not being "True Christianity". Christians have accused each other of being heretics since well before the first Council of Nicea. Irenaeus (~ 130 - 202 AD) and Tertullian (155 - 240 AD) wrote extensively about the topic. Hundreds of thousands of people who regarded themselves as Christians have died because others who regarded themselves as the true Christians labelled them as heretics.
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Re: Proof Against the Christian Creator God

#17  Postby AlanF » Nov 10, 2019 4:42 pm

Gila Guerilla wrote:There are umpteen variants of the Christian god, as delineated by various sects and denominations. From the POV of any one of those believers, does your argument cover their god version?


I'm dealing with the Jehovah's Witness version of God. Most Fundamentalists have a similar version except for the Trinity, but descriptions of God apart from the Trinity are similar between JWs and all the non-JW Fundamentalists I know about.

Do they for example believe that Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden is literally true, or do they accept it as a metaphor for something? It must make a difference from their POV.


Literally true. How does this question relate to the "God is love" notion?
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Re: Proof Against the Christian Creator God

#18  Postby Wortfish » Nov 17, 2019 12:52 pm

AlanF wrote:

I'd like to get comments from people on my argument. Are there flaws that Christian defenders can exploit? Etc.

Thanks,
Alan


I think this is what many would call "an argument from ignorance and personal incredulity".

From my own sources in the spirit world, it is clear that the earth was created to be a place of conflict and suffering - this is hell . In the world of spirit, there is no harm done and everyone is at peace. But it is only through trials and hardships that we learn anything and that is why spirits take on bodies. God, as our loving Father, wants us to grow and "evolve" as spiritual beings.

Moreover, the Christian religion is based on the idea that God sent his Son to suffer and be crucified so that he could show his love for humanity through redemption. That is entirely consistent with a loving God.
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Re: Proof Against the Christian Creator God

#19  Postby Hermit » Nov 17, 2019 1:51 pm

Wortfish wrote:Moreover, the Christian religion is based on the idea that God sent his Son to suffer and be crucified so that he could show his love for humanity through redemption. That is entirely consistent with a loving God.

Have you never been struck by the absurdity of the omnipotent Christian god's incapability to redeem humanity unless humans kill his son? Ignoring the utter absurdity of this scenario I can only marvel at how much that god must have hated his son.
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Re: Proof Against the Christian Creator God

#20  Postby Wortfish » Nov 17, 2019 2:04 pm

Hermit wrote:
Wortfish wrote:Moreover, the Christian religion is based on the idea that God sent his Son to suffer and be crucified so that he could show his love for humanity through redemption. That is entirely consistent with a loving God.

Have you never been struck by the absurdity of the omnipotent Christian god's incapability to redeem humanity unless humans kill his son? Ignoring the utter absurdity of this scenario I can only marvel at how much that god must have hated his son.


I see no inconsistency. Someone had to pay the debt for the forgiveness of sins. That meant someone had to suffer.
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