Questioning Darwin

Incl. intelligent design, belief in divine creation

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Questioning Darwin

#1  Postby DoctorE » Feb 12, 2014 2:41 pm

:crazy: :yuk: :thumbdown: some crazy christans here :)
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Re: Questioning Darwin

#2  Postby Calilasseia » Feb 12, 2014 9:45 pm

"This video has been removed by the user".

Perhaps because they didn't want a global audience to see how stupid they were?
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Re: Questioning Darwin

#3  Postby Aca » Feb 13, 2014 7:33 am

Video here

http://gawker.com/watch-creationists-ta ... 1520841986

These clips come from last night's HBO documentary Questioning Darwin. Says the first interviewee you'll see above, Pastor Peter LaRuffa, "If somewhere within the Bible, I were to find a passage that said 2 + 2 = 5, I wouldn't question what I'm reading in the Bible. I would believe it, accept it as true, and then do my best to work it out and understand it."
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Re: Questioning Darwin

#4  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Feb 13, 2014 8:27 am

Aca wrote:Video here

http://gawker.com/watch-creationists-ta ... 1520841986

These clips come from last night's HBO documentary Questioning Darwin. Says the first interviewee you'll see above, Pastor Peter LaRuffa, "If somewhere within the Bible, I were to find a passage that said 2 + 2 = 5, I wouldn't question what I'm reading in the Bible. I would believe it, accept it as true, and then do my best to work it out and understand it."

:facepalm:
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Re: Questioning Darwin

#5  Postby Aca » Feb 13, 2014 8:52 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Aca wrote:Video here

http://gawker.com/watch-creationists-ta ... 1520841986

These clips come from last night's HBO documentary Questioning Darwin. Says the first interviewee you'll see above, Pastor Peter LaRuffa, "If somewhere within the Bible, I were to find a passage that said 2 + 2 = 5, I wouldn't question what I'm reading in the Bible. I would believe it, accept it as true, and then do my best to work it out and understand it."

:facepalm:


same here.

Just that i am actually glad that this guy admits it so freely & publicly. He explained in a very simple way how it all works in their minds, that they are basically rationalising everything they find in the bible, often employing mental gymnastics of the highest order, in order to justify their "knowledge".

Also, it is notable that 2+2=5 has nothing to do with biology and evolution. It is a gross denial of reality, of maths solvable by 4 year old child, that they are ready to justify by any means necessary. The same applies when they talk about their "knowledge" of physics, their understanding of ethics, morality...anything.

sad, but revealing.
Last edited by Aca on Feb 13, 2014 9:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Questioning Darwin

#6  Postby Bribase » Feb 13, 2014 8:55 am

It's interesting to see Ken Ham abandon his position again in 3:20, he did the same thing during the Bill Nye debate. He often makes an admission of what the fossil record actually shows and then goes on to say that it can't be true because of the consequences of believing it.
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Re: Questioning Darwin

#7  Postby Briton » Feb 13, 2014 9:09 am

Aca wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Aca wrote:Video here

http://gawker.com/watch-creationists-ta ... 1520841986

These clips come from last night's HBO documentary Questioning Darwin. Says the first interviewee you'll see above, Pastor Peter LaRuffa, "If somewhere within the Bible, I were to find a passage that said 2 + 2 = 5, I wouldn't question what I'm reading in the Bible. I would believe it, accept it as true, and then do my best to work it out and understand it."

:facepalm:


same here.

Just that i am actually glad that this guy admits it so freely & publicly. He explained in a very simple way how it all works in their minds, that they are basically rationalising everything they find in the bible, often employing mental gymnastics of the highest order, in order to justify their "knowledge".

Also, it is notable that 2+2=5 has nothing to do with biology and evolution. It is a gross denial of reality, of maths solvable by 4 year old child, that they are ready to justify but any means necessary. The same applies when they talk about their "knowledge" of physics, their understanding of ethics, morality...anything.

sad, but revealing.


...and of course they have little to no idea as to where/when/how the Bible came to be. It's just 'God's word'; nothing more needs to be known.
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Re: Questioning Darwin

#8  Postby TMB » Feb 13, 2014 9:56 am

Briton wrote:
Aca wrote:


same here.

Just that i am actually glad that this guy admits it so freely & publicly. He explained in a very simple way how it all works in their minds, that they are basically rationalising everything they find in the bible, often employing mental gymnastics of the highest order, in order to justify their "knowledge".

Also, it is notable that 2+2=5 has nothing to do with biology and evolution. It is a gross denial of reality, of maths solvable by 4 year old child, that they are ready to justify but any means necessary. The same applies when they talk about their "knowledge" of physics, their understanding of ethics, morality...anything.

sad, but revealing.


...and of course they have little to no idea as to where/when/how the Bible came to be. It's just 'God's word'; nothing more needs to be known.


Why am I still suprised and disappointed to see evidence that humans can be so irrational when I have seen it so often. It is almost as if I do not want to accept what logic and evidence itself tells us. Rationality is not necessarily an adaptive trait.
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Re: Questioning Darwin

#9  Postby Matthew Shute » Feb 13, 2014 12:28 pm

These clips come from last night's HBO documentary Questioning Darwin. Says the first interviewee you'll see above, Pastor Peter LaRuffa, "If somewhere within the Bible, I were to find a passage that said 2 + 2 = 5, I wouldn't question what I'm reading in the Bible. I would believe it, accept it as true, and then do my best to work it out and understand it."


Where did he train to become a Pastor? The Ministry of Love? I find his remarks equally depressing, chilling, and contemptible.
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Re: Questioning Darwin

#10  Postby TMB » Feb 15, 2014 5:31 am

Matthew Shute wrote:
These clips come from last night's HBO documentary Questioning Darwin. Says the first interviewee you'll see above, Pastor Peter LaRuffa, "If somewhere within the Bible, I were to find a passage that said 2 + 2 = 5, I wouldn't question what I'm reading in the Bible. I would believe it, accept it as true, and then do my best to work it out and understand it."


Where did he train to become a Pastor? The Ministry of Love? I find his remarks equally depressing, chilling, and contemptible.


I agree, to see such a blind irrational approach might well support the idea of humans evolving this way, but what a tragedy it still is. RIP.
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Re: Questioning Darwin

#11  Postby Calilasseia » Feb 15, 2014 9:07 am

So basically, these guys are once again demonstrating that their position consists of "if reality and doctrine differ, reality is wrong and doctrine is right". I'm no longer surprised at this, but I still have trouble understanding this mindset from a viscerally immediate standpoint. I can understand it as an abstract concept, and formulate appropriate hypotheses to address it, but I still wonder how the hell supposedly grown adults can adopt this mindset.
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Re: Questioning Darwin

#12  Postby TMB » Feb 15, 2014 12:05 pm

Calilasseia wrote:So basically, these guys are once again demonstrating that their position consists of "if reality and doctrine differ, reality is wrong and doctrine is right". I'm no longer surprised at this, but I still have trouble understanding this mindset from a viscerally immediate standpoint. I can understand it as an abstract concept, and formulate appropriate hypotheses to address it, but I still wonder how the hell supposedly grown adults can adopt this mindset.


From watching the video, they still manage to avoid directly equating doctrine with unreality. What they do admit doing is that because they accept the bible as an absolute truth they knowingly suspend their critical faculty. One says that he believes first then works on trying to understand, but presumably does not take this very far possibly because. Their arguments for accepting the bible as the truth ironically lead them to highlight the very questions they should be using to validate if the bible is the picture of reality, but once again they manage to detour at the last moment to a headon collision with the flaws.

What is interesting is their obvious struggle to present themselves as rational (as contemporary society now demands), and that they accept evidence and facts as ways to accurately validate reality, all the while denying these very things when they are at odds with biblical teaching. Being forced to rationalise and support their position with the the very same mechanisms they must deny in order to believe the bible, shows the ability of our minds to bend objective reality. Now that multiple religions are well socialised globally, all with various exclusive rights to the truth that negates the rest, means they have to bend their minds even more.

Could it argued that these people have a pathology that can be objectively classified as mental illness? Is it something inherent in all human minds that explains our ability to blend socially as well as we do, and these are extreme examples or extreme situations producing people of this sort? My concern is that there are plenty of examples outside of religion of similar minds and I recall my own behavior as a teenager that was truly mindless. Perhaps my own sense of rational thought is my own delusion, hiding behind itself as it seems to do with the muppets in the video - what a morbid thought.

The video would be funny if it was not so wasteful and potentially dangerous. I tell myself that I should not be drawn to debate with them given the futility of doing it, but I find it hard to resist. If a God did create the minds displayed in the video in his own image, then God help us all.
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Re: Questioning Darwin

#13  Postby questioner121 » Feb 15, 2014 10:37 pm

TMB wrote:
Calilasseia wrote:So basically, these guys are once again demonstrating that their position consists of "if reality and doctrine differ, reality is wrong and doctrine is right". I'm no longer surprised at this, but I still have trouble understanding this mindset from a viscerally immediate standpoint. I can understand it as an abstract concept, and formulate appropriate hypotheses to address it, but I still wonder how the hell supposedly grown adults can adopt this mindset.


From watching the video, they still manage to avoid directly equating doctrine with unreality. What they do admit doing is that because they accept the bible as an absolute truth they knowingly suspend their critical faculty. One says that he believes first then works on trying to understand, but presumably does not take this very far possibly because. Their arguments for accepting the bible as the truth ironically lead them to highlight the very questions they should be using to validate if the bible is the picture of reality, but once again they manage to detour at the last moment to a headon collision with the flaws.

What is interesting is their obvious struggle to present themselves as rational (as contemporary society now demands), and that they accept evidence and facts as ways to accurately validate reality, all the while denying these very things when they are at odds with biblical teaching. Being forced to rationalise and support their position with the the very same mechanisms they must deny in order to believe the bible, shows the ability of our minds to bend objective reality. Now that multiple religions are well socialised globally, all with various exclusive rights to the truth that negates the rest, means they have to bend their minds even more.

Could it argued that these people have a pathology that can be objectively classified as mental illness? Is it something inherent in all human minds that explains our ability to blend socially as well as we do, and these are extreme examples or extreme situations producing people of this sort? My concern is that there are plenty of examples outside of religion of similar minds and I recall my own behavior as a teenager that was truly mindless. Perhaps my own sense of rational thought is my own delusion, hiding behind itself as it seems to do with the muppets in the video - what a morbid thought.

The video would be funny if it was not so wasteful and potentially dangerous. I tell myself that I should not be drawn to debate with them given the futility of doing it, but I find it hard to resist. If a God did create the minds displayed in the video in his own image, then God help us all.


If you're referring to them denying evolution then I don't think you understand their position on evolution. Creationists don't deny evolution within species however they do deny evolution across kinds, ie. macroevolution. This is fine according to scripture and doesn't go against it. I can see why the atheists think what they do but I'm afraid it's they who are trusting in huge assumptions. The media is doing a great job deluding people but the truth will come out eventually.
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Re: Questioning Darwin

#14  Postby questioner121 » Feb 15, 2014 10:47 pm

Briton wrote:
Aca wrote:


same here.

Just that i am actually glad that this guy admits it so freely & publicly. He explained in a very simple way how it all works in their minds, that they are basically rationalising everything they find in the bible, often employing mental gymnastics of the highest order, in order to justify their "knowledge".

Also, it is notable that 2+2=5 has nothing to do with biology and evolution. It is a gross denial of reality, of maths solvable by 4 year old child, that they are ready to justify but any means necessary. The same applies when they talk about their "knowledge" of physics, their understanding of ethics, morality...anything.

sad, but revealing.


...and of course they have little to no idea as to where/when/how the Bible came to be. It's just 'God's word'; nothing more needs to be known.


Believers are told to find the truth. They can't just accept anything as the word of God. However some believers just accept whatever is written without trying to check if it's the truth or simply accepting other peoples interpretations. This leads to confusion, especially for the atheists.
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Re: Questioning Darwin

#15  Postby questioner121 » Feb 15, 2014 10:57 pm

Calilasseia wrote:So basically, these guys are once again demonstrating that their position consists of "if reality and doctrine differ, reality is wrong and doctrine is right". I'm no longer surprised at this, but I still have trouble understanding this mindset from a viscerally immediate standpoint. I can understand it as an abstract concept, and formulate appropriate hypotheses to address it, but I still wonder how the hell supposedly grown adults can adopt this mindset.


From an atheist perspective, isn't this just a product of evolution over millions of years?
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Re: Questioning Darwin

#16  Postby campermon » Feb 15, 2014 10:57 pm

questioner121 wrote:
Creationists don't deny evolution within species however they do deny evolution across kinds, ie. macroevolution. .


Long time no see! :beer:

Now. Do tell me about these 'kinds'.

:thumbup:
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Re: Questioning Darwin

#17  Postby questioner121 » Feb 15, 2014 11:02 pm

campermon wrote:
questioner121 wrote:
Creationists don't deny evolution within species however they do deny evolution across kinds, ie. macroevolution. .


Long time no see! :beer:

Now. Do tell me about these 'kinds'.

:thumbup:


Dogs, cats, lizards, fish, birds, etc.
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Re: Questioning Darwin

#18  Postby questioner121 » Feb 15, 2014 11:15 pm

Calilasseia wrote:So basically, these guys are once again demonstrating that their position consists of "if reality and doctrine differ, reality is wrong and doctrine is right". I'm no longer surprised at this, but I still have trouble understanding this mindset from a viscerally immediate standpoint. I can understand it as an abstract concept, and formulate appropriate hypotheses to address it, but I still wonder how the hell supposedly grown adults can adopt this mindset.


If you think about it there are two realities:

1. Reality of the physical world.
2. Reality of the subjective world in our minds.

Both have laws, boundaries and concepts. In my opinion humans consider the reality of the subjective world a lot more important than that of the physical world. I think atheists try to explain/understand their subjective reality based on observations of the physical world. I don't think it's possible to do that. For believers it's easy, God created it and provided us with guidance on how to live in our subjective reality.
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Re: Questioning Darwin

#19  Postby Animavore » Feb 15, 2014 11:16 pm

questioner121 wrote:
campermon wrote:
questioner121 wrote:
Creationists don't deny evolution within species however they do deny evolution across kinds, ie. macroevolution. .


Long time no see! :beer:

Now. Do tell me about these 'kinds'.

:thumbup:


Dogs, cats, lizards, fish, birds, etc.


Those definitions aren't very helpful to biologists when trying to class species. Their definitions are usually more robust. Something like this definition describing a primate.

Primates” are collectively defined as any gill-less, organic RNA/DNA protein-based, metabolic, metazoic, nucleic, diploid, bilaterally-symmetrical, endothermic, digestive, tryploblast, opisthokont, deuterostome coelemate with a spinal chord and 12 cranial nerves connecting to a limbic system in an enlarged cerebral cortex with a reduced olfactory region inside a jawed-skull with specialized teeth including canines and premolars, forward-oriented fully-enclosed optical orbits, and a single temporal fenestra, -attached to a vertebrate hind-leg dominant tetrapoidal skeleton with a sacral pelvis, clavical, and wrist & ankle bones; and having lungs, tear ducts, body-wide hair follicles, lactal mammaries, opposable thumbs, and keratinized dermis with chitinous nails on all five digits on all four extremities, in addition to an embryonic development in amniotic fluid, leading to a placental birth and highly social lifestyle.


It's a very useful definition for identifying creatures as primates. Monkeys, apes and humans all perfectly fit into this definition. Creatures failing to meet all these criteria cannot usually, properly be classed as primates.
Just saying 'dog' is of no use. And 'bird' and 'lizard' are even more useless when we consider the variety of them. You could mean anything from an ostrich to an eagle on the former, and a monitor lizard to a snake on the other.
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Re: Questioning Darwin

#20  Postby Animavore » Feb 15, 2014 11:22 pm

questioner121 wrote: God created it and provided us with guidance on how to live in our subjective reality.


Really? So which godly inspired book do we follow? The bible? The koran? The vedas? The book of Mormon? The Upanishads?
Saying "God created it" isn't helpful and it's not even half the story. You might as well say, "Fred created it." How did he create it? What was the process? Where did the matter come from which he used to fashion it? How does He interact with it? Don't think you can just get away with making such an assertion. I want to see your homework. Your theories. Your train of observation and logic leading you to conclude that "God created it" or your assertions are worthless.
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