Remember Stevebee?

Incl. intelligent design, belief in divine creation

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Re: Remember Stevebee?

#401  Postby Shrunk » Sep 09, 2010 10:41 am

I don't know why I bother, but I posted these two messages on his blog:

You continue to ignore the challenge I put to you on Rational Skepticism. The diagram you created above, with the A’s B’s and C’s, is actually an accurate depiction of how evolved traits distribute themselves along phylogenetic lines. The test for evolution is whether the actually observed distribution of traits fall into such an arrangement. So you’ve presented a hypothesis but failed to test it. To do the latter, you need to substitue the “ABC’s” with actual traits (or “biosystems” if you prefer) and use an actual phylogenetic tree, as determined by evolutionary biologists, to see if your problem actually arises when applied to real life. You have the choice of any “biosystems” and species you want, so this should be easy. Let us know what you find.


To give just one example of what I’m talking about: Bilateral symmetry is one trait that arose quite early in evolution, above the phylum level. This is defined as organisms having a defined front and back, as well as a top and bottom. This includes most animals, including all vertebrates, molluscs, arthropods, etc. However, it does not include jellyfish, sponges, anemones, corals, etc. So evolutionary theory will predict that there should not be a single creature in the latter group that demonstrates bilateral symmetry, whereas all in the former group will, as the trait is determined by common ancestry. And of course, that’s what we observe. According to intellgent design, there is no reason why not a single sponge, say, should have been “designed” with bilateral symmetry, or a single vertebrate without it, but that is not observed.

So, sorry, you can’t use that one. It won’t work. But that still leaves you milions of other species and traits to try and find an exception.
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Re: Remember Stevebee?

#402  Postby Fallible » Sep 09, 2010 11:32 am


!
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Hi, lucek and welcome. Stevebee is a current member of the forum, and is therefore protected from personal attacks by the FUA. Please give it a look over when you get a chance if you have not already. This part of your post
lucek wrote:I'll take the challenge. The following was sent to him. I know nothing will come of it (he already shot down the eye example and called the person proposing it a troll) but who here thinks that they are changing a raving lunatics mind?
violates this section of it:
You may challenge and criticise posts robustly but personal attacks on other members are not permitted.
This is simply a heads-up, to let you know that further posts in this vein could lead to more advisories and eventually to warnings.

If you have any questions or comments about this, feel free to PM me or a global moderator, or to start a thread in the feedback section. Thanks.
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Re: Remember Stevebee?

#403  Postby CADman2300 » Sep 09, 2010 12:06 pm

When halucigenia was the first to comment on Steve's new article, Steve responded with this piece of rudeness.
Not close. You are in an avalanche. You lose. You have no answer, and yours isn’t close to one. I thought you might do better than that. Who is “we”? You and the congregation?
BTW I like Havana’s.

Steve constantly fails to realize that questions based on scientific misrepresentations are never going to be answered the way he wants them to be answered. He dismisses without explaining why, pretends that he's victorious when he hasn't shown or proven anything, continues to disregard his own statements about correcting his mistakes, and to top it off, he still thinks that legitimate biology is some kind of questionable religion.

After all the debates I've read, inarticulate articles he's written, and the vandalism he's done on a couple scientific papers, I have to wonder if this guy is even worth talking about, much less having a debate with. I mean, he's a dentist who lies about his real-life identity and patents. He says that he's studied evolution for 30+ years but is clearly lying about that because he uses pro-ID arguments. Since all the cool evolutionists and biologists completely ignore these kinds of people, it might be a good idea for all of us on this forum to do the same, although writing him off as troll probably won't do anything.
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Re: Remember Stevebee?

#404  Postby Jehannum » Sep 09, 2010 12:58 pm

Aside from the usual creationist self-image of 'lone crusader battling against group-thinkers', do you think his engineering background is part of the problem; that he is unable to see biological systems away from the engineering model and therefore in need of a designer, like himself? I say this because, at first, it is surprising that a technically-capable mind could entertain such notions as he does.
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Re: Remember Stevebee?

#405  Postby Shrunk » Sep 09, 2010 1:02 pm

Well, it seems my posts have disappeared. There was a problem with disappearing posts on his blog before that seemed to have been due to problems with the website, so I'm not jumping to conclusions.
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Re: Remember Stevebee?

#406  Postby lucek » Sep 09, 2010 5:05 pm

Yup dismissed my entire line of evidence as imagination. Figured as much. A true Hovindite we got here.
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Re: Remember Stevebee?

#407  Postby stevebee92653 » Sep 09, 2010 5:29 pm

Shrunk wrote:Well, it seems my posts have disappeared. There was a problem with disappearing posts on his blog before that seemed to have been due to problems with the website, so I'm not jumping to conclusions.


Posting takes about 24 hours. So don't be so sad. And look up "traits" and "organs" and see if you can figure out why they are not the same. You keep mixing them up in your answers.
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Re: Remember Stevebee?

#408  Postby Shrunk » Sep 09, 2010 5:35 pm

stevebee92653 wrote:
Shrunk wrote:Well, it seems my posts have disappeared. There was a problem with disappearing posts on his blog before that seemed to have been due to problems with the website, so I'm not jumping to conclusions.


Posting takes about 24 hours. So don't be so sad. And look up "traits" and "organs" and see if you can figure out why they are not the same. You keep mixing them up in your answers.


The distinction, assuming one exists, is irrelevant to my question. You can use any physical feature you want. Bilateral symmetry, the example I used, is not an "organ". But you can use eyes, skulls, digestive tracts, or whatever you want. The field is wide open for you.
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Re: Remember Stevebee?

#409  Postby Rumraket » Sep 09, 2010 5:50 pm

stevebee92653 wrote:
Shrunk wrote:Well, it seems my posts have disappeared. There was a problem with disappearing posts on his blog before that seemed to have been due to problems with the website, so I'm not jumping to conclusions.


Posting takes about 24 hours. So don't be so sad. And look up "traits" and "organs" and see if you can figure out why they are not the same. You keep mixing them up in your answers.

This argument fails horribly, as the mechanism for divsersification through splitting of populations and subsequent speciation still solves the problem, whether they are "traits" or "organs" or "limbs" or "behaviors", the mechanism is the same and still solves the problem.

Draw a correct cladistic diagram and prove me wrong.
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Re: Remember Stevebee?

#410  Postby lucek » Sep 09, 2010 6:00 pm

stevebee92653 wrote:
Shrunk wrote:Well, it seems my posts have disappeared. There was a problem with disappearing posts on his blog before that seemed to have been due to problems with the website, so I'm not jumping to conclusions.


Posting takes about 24 hours. So don't be so sad. And look up "traits" and "organs" and see if you can figure out why they are not the same. You keep mixing them up in your answers.

If you want an Organ how about the heart. There are distinct groups with out a heart, ones with a 1 chambered, 2 chambered, 3 chambered, and 4 chambered heart and they follow evolutionary lines as to their distribution. IE you don't find earth worms with a 4 chambered hear and you don't find reptiles without a heart etc.
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Re: Remember Stevebee?

#411  Postby tytalus » Sep 09, 2010 6:44 pm

Amusing to see that steve is still monitoring activity here, and some skeptics are monitoring his activity on his blog. Since all he's done here is repeat baseless assertions, what's the point? :) Although it might be more fun to poke at him about the identity of his mystery intelligent designer.
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Re: Remember Stevebee?

#412  Postby Mirage » Sep 09, 2010 7:01 pm

This vid made my day, especially the obscene last part.
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Re: Remember Stevebee?

#413  Postby Mr P » Sep 09, 2010 7:27 pm

Jehannum wrote:Aside from the usual creationist self-image of 'lone crusader battling against group-thinkers', do you think his engineering background is part of the problem; that he is unable to see biological systems away from the engineering model and therefore in need of a designer, like himself? I say this because, at first, it is surprising that a technically-capable mind could entertain such notions as he does.

I'm an engineer and I have no problem grasping the concept of order emerging naturally out of chaos, I can form a basic understanding of the processes involved without having to resort to myth and fable. There appears to be a certain mindset out there that can cherry pick their desired evidence, ignore any contradictions and yet still maintain confidence in their own integrity. Professional background has nothing to do with it.
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Re: Remember Stevebee?

#414  Postby ADParker » Sep 10, 2010 6:10 am

Mr P wrote:
I'm an engineer and I have no problem grasping the concept of order emerging naturally out of chaos, I can form a basic understanding of the processes involved without having to resort to myth and fable. There appears to be a certain mindset out there that can cherry pick their desired evidence, ignore any contradictions and yet still maintain confidence in their own integrity. Professional background has nothing to do with it.

No offence intended to all those engineers that are capable of such understanding. I know there are many.

But there is something of an appearance of an over-abundance of engineers posing as "scientists" (which they are too of course, but I mean using the general moniker of "I'm a scientist so trust me on this...") as an assumed appeal to authority when going on about the impossibility of evolution. Something not of their field of expertise at all!

A part of this at least seems (to me at least) to be an excessive tendency to see the "Design" in everything (because that is what they do themselves; design and build stuff) and to assume that holds for biological organisms as well. The problem there of course, is not being an engineer, but a blinkered outlook on things, not being able to (or interested in) look beyond the "engineer perspective." And that may well be the direction of the correlation; such people (natural ID proponents) lean toward engineering as opposed to other sciences a little more. As opposed to them being engineers first and IDiots second.

stevebee92653 of course is not an engineer but a dentist. Although as an oh so proud holder of a few patents , there is a notable "engineer" side to him I think.
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Re: Remember Stevebee?

#415  Postby Shrunk » Sep 10, 2010 10:52 am

BTW, ADParker, thanks for the patient responses on Steve's blog. You summarized my thoughts perfectly. Sailed right over Steve's head, of course, but there's nothing new in that, unfortunately.
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Re: Remember Stevebee?

#416  Postby ADParker » Sep 11, 2010 5:14 am

Shrunk wrote:BTW, ADParker, thanks for the patient responses on Steve's blog. You summarized my thoughts perfectly. Sailed right over Steve's head, of course, but there's nothing new in that, unfortunately.

Thanks. And yeah, but that's okay; I just find his little games funny now. :lol:
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Re: Remember Stevebee?

#417  Postby CADman2300 » Sep 11, 2010 8:49 pm

I wonder what SteveBee's next article is going to be about. Maybe he'll post another debate that he had recently on YouTube. Or maybe he'll write an article where he tries to explain why anyone should care what a dentist says about evolution. That last idea has been floating in my head ever since he came forward and claimed to be a dentist and a patent holder. Too bad his patent numbers don't exist and his supposed real-life names Steven B. Lyndon or Anders Lyndon don't appear in any database at the patent office or college he said he went to.
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Re: Remember Stevebee?

#418  Postby Varangian » Sep 11, 2010 9:27 pm

I think we can be fairly sure that he's a dentist, though, as his arguments are like dentistry - they say "This will not hurt a single bit", and you know it is a lie. ;)
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Re: Remember Stevebee?

#419  Postby CADman2300 » Oct 06, 2010 1:47 am

I think this is an important issue to bring up, and it explains why so many comments have been deleted on his blog lately.
When you go to his blog: evillusion.net, and click on article 1A on the side menu, he lists his rules for engagement and they're probably the most one-sided rules that I've ever come across.

But it's a few that really annoy me. Rule #1 for example:
1. Get an education, read a biology book………my education was far more adequate than that required for a Masters in Biological Science degree.

This is an outright lie. He doesn't try to substantiate this claim in his entire blog, nor does he show the expected level of professionalism in anything he writes or says.

8. Any kind of personal demeaning, name calling. I go by the same rules as a major pro-evolution site: www.rationalskepticism.org. You can say anything you want about a comment, but not the commenter.

This is the most hypocritical rule in the list because I've seen the way he treats critics on his blog. He'd much rather attack people than address anything and this rule is his excuse. It's his way or the highway.

11. Don’t leave links to YouTube vids by evo-gurus such as potholer54, AronRa, cdk007, donexodus or the like. I have debated with these people, and some of the debates are copied on this blog. p.23 I am VERY familiar with what they have to say, and I have watched most of their videos. I have debated with PhD molecular biologist, PZ Meyers group, university biology instructors, richarddawkins.net, rationalskepticism.org…..a great sampling of the most intelligent evolutionauts I could find.

I've read all of those debates and the ones where he's up against the PHD people are the most memorable because he doesn't address anything or show the slightest sign of interest in what the professors are saying.
His blog also gives him an excuse to vandalize what opponents say by tossing in some red or orange text commentary that reflects nothing more than his personal spin on the topic.

12. Don’t leave links to other sites that “know the truth”: They don’t. No one does. I have reviewed just about every major evolution site on the net.

To me the last sentence is the most ludicrous. But I digress.
He's admitting to the use of censorship which is extremely dishonest because it prevents anyone from being able to substantiate their arguments against him and this is crucial in an open debate. It's likely that he recognizes the importance of source-sighting and he probably knows that he can't go head to head against professional biologists so he thinks that giving critics a serious handicap will help him.

My guess is that he did this update to the rules page quite recently which may explain why so many comments from users Unicron and HellaStyle were either deleted or edited without them knowing until later. I had the good fortune to read them before that happened and the comments were clearly well thought out but Steve just didn't want to deal with them in any kind of polite manner.
HellaStyle pointed out that claiming a decades-long education and not showing the expected professionalism made Steve an open target for all kinds of criticisms. Steve edited that part out, possibly because he knew he couldn't counteract it.
Unicron got most of his recent corrective comments deleted under the dubious grounds that they were repetitive and he was "indoctrinated"; Steve's favorite manta. Unicron also had some comments that were well researched and sighted, they all got deleted.

Another reason I bring this up is because it may make engaging him in the future a more difficult endeavor because he won't let anyone address anything properly. It's clear right now that he doesn't want honesty nor does he want to learn anything. He just wants to irritate people he doesn't like.
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Re: Remember Stevebee?

#420  Postby stevebee92653 » Oct 06, 2010 5:48 pm

As usual, you are way off. You didn't mention that I have acres of attacks on me already in the comments section of my blog. They have been left for the joyful reading of any evolutionaut. Even Cali's long essay on how terrible I am, that he wrote on RD is also posted by me on my blog. Wordpress is not like RS.org. I cannot archive the comments or continually make new threads. The comments go on and on, and at some point, repetitive personal attacks and repetitive evo-rants that have been done dozens of times become tiring and space wasting. My "rules" are very liberal. All I ask is that people say something with a little thought. Attack my stuff all you want using your own thinking and research. I have a large blog, and there are plenty of targets. But to continually get the same stuff over and over....."argument from ignorance",,,,,'magic space fairies".....'little stevie and his little heart", and continual links to anti-religious videos and sites is just irritating and a waste of space and time. The "don't do's" are tiny and very specific compared to what you can write. I even post many comments that break the rules horribly. You didn't mention that of course. What almost NEVER happens is any evolutionaut coming on my site and taking any page, paragraph, or point, and saying "here is where you are wrong". Is that too much of a challenge? The strange thing in this world is there is nothing that an anti-evo can do that is fair and right. Which I find very strange. But that is the way things are in this world. The BOO HOO button was just pressed, so have at it. Autopilot is always on here.
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