The 7 deadly myths about creationism

Misconceptions about what creationist believe

Incl. intelligent design, belief in divine creation

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Re: The 7 deadly myths about creationism

#141  Postby laklak » Aug 21, 2018 5:25 pm

"Blobulous wibble". Lol. I'm going to use that.
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Re: The 7 deadly myths about creationism

#142  Postby Keep It Real » Aug 21, 2018 5:40 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
1. There was no vacuum before the big bang.


That's far from proven actually

Not at all, the current hypothesis is that the big bang is an expansion of pre-existing matter, not a explosion in a vacuum.

Vacuum is not matter. That's what vacuum means.

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:An ever-expanding universe requires that an ever-increasing further vacuum be created between objects of mass as the distance between those objects and their velocities increase. Many view that as being highly improbable IIRC, myself included.

Not only does it not require that, I have not made any claims about an ever expanding universe.

a. How does it not require that if there were not pre "existing" vacuum?
b. What leads you to think the universe is going to stop expanding?
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Re: The 7 deadly myths about creationism

#143  Postby aban57 » Aug 21, 2018 5:52 pm

Keep It Real wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
1. There was no vacuum before the big bang.


That's far from proven actually

Not at all, the current hypothesis is that the big bang is an expansion of pre-existing matter, not a explosion in a vacuum.

Vacuum is not matter. That's what vacuum means.

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:An ever-expanding universe requires that an ever-increasing further vacuum be created between objects of mass as the distance between those objects and their velocities increase. Many view that as being highly improbable IIRC, myself included.

Not only does it not require that, I have not made any claims about an ever expanding universe.

a. How does it not require that if there were not pre "existing" vacuum?
b. What leads you to think the universe is going to stop expanding?


You don't seem to understand that the universe is expanding as its space-time expands too. It means that whatever "vacuum" existed "around" the singularity before the big bang occured, got expanded as it was "pushed away" by the space-time and the matter contained inside the singularity. As for your second comment, no single scientist, that I'm aware of, ever claimed the universe is ever-expanding and neither did Thomas. Only you are claiming that, which means only you claim it requires more vacuum created. I don't know much on this specific topic I must say, but it seems unlikely, as your premisses are wrong anyway.

ETA : regarding your last question : science makes deductions based on observation. The observation today is that the universe is expanding at an increasing speed. This information alone is not enough to postulate whether the universe will keep expanding forever, or will one day shrink and go back to its initial state.
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Re: The 7 deadly myths about creationism

#144  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Aug 21, 2018 6:11 pm

Keep It Real wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
1. There was no vacuum before the big bang.


That's far from proven actually

Not at all, the current hypothesis is that the big bang is an expansion of pre-existing matter, not a explosion in a vacuum.

Vacuum is not matter. That's what vacuum means.

:sigh: You're missing the point. The current hypothesis is that there was no vacuum.

Keep It Real wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:An ever-expanding universe requires that an ever-increasing further vacuum be created between objects of mass as the distance between those objects and their velocities increase. Many view that as being highly improbable IIRC, myself included.

Not only does it not require that, I have not made any claims about an ever expanding universe.

a. How does it not require that if there were not pre "existing" vacuum?

Because you keep begging the question that there is something besides the universe.

Keep It Real wrote:b. What leads you to think the universe is going to stop expanding?

Another thing I have not claimed. Please try to respond to what I actually post.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: The 7 deadly myths about creationism

#145  Postby Keep It Real » Aug 21, 2018 6:21 pm

Meh; CBA; I think ur (both) missing the point(s); u think I'm missing the point(s); none of us are cosmologists so fuck it; it's all completely irrelevant to the situation on earth anyway, except when theists say stuff like "well then what caused the big bang eh!?" to which I reply "Nobody knows, but we do know there's fuck all evidence for any intervention on planet earth from a god and a shit-ton of evidence of suffering of the innocents so even if a god did kick things off he clearly don't give a fuck about us."
Arthur : All my life I've had this strange feeling that there's something big and sinister going on in the world. Slartibartfast : No, that's perfectly normal paranoia.
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Re: The 7 deadly myths about creationism

#146  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Aug 21, 2018 6:52 pm

Keep It Real wrote:Meh; CBA; I think ur (both) missing the point(s);

It's actually the other way around.
You keep making claims and asking questions that beg the question that there is such a thing as before and/or outside the universe.

Keep It Real wrote: u think I'm missing the point(s);

Because you are. Your responses do not actually adress the points being made.

Keep It Real wrote: none of us are cosmologists so fuck it;

It's not a black and white situation. I may not be a cosmologist but I've read quite a number of articles on the BB theory.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: The 7 deadly myths about creationism

#147  Postby Keep It Real » Aug 21, 2018 6:55 pm

Either way, you've certainly missed the point in my last post for sure.
Arthur : All my life I've had this strange feeling that there's something big and sinister going on in the world. Slartibartfast : No, that's perfectly normal paranoia.
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Re: The 7 deadly myths about creationism

#148  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Aug 21, 2018 10:07 pm

Keep It Real wrote:Either way, you've certainly missed the point in my last post for sure.

So you assert without evidence....
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: The 7 deadly myths about creationism

#149  Postby Wortfish » Aug 22, 2018 9:54 pm

aban57 wrote:
Wortfish wrote:Genesis, however, is not one of them. It is a creation myth used to explain God's purposes.


Who decides that exactly ? Who decides what has to be taken litterally, and what is myth ? And how do these people know they're right, compared to the other people having a different interpretation ?
I mean, if you believe the Bible is sacred, transmitted to us by God, who are you to say that some parts are myths ? Shouldn't you believe it to the letter ?

Common sense. In fact, some have read into Genesis a crypto-evolutionary message behind a creationist smokescreen.

1. God creates Adam from slime: The first living organisms are believed to have emerged from slime or something similar: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 143318.htm

2. In the Garden of Eden, there is a tree of life, just as in the modern phylogenetic tree of life representing common ancestry.

3. There is a talking snake who has his legs removed for being bad....snake ancestors did lose their legs in the evolutionary past.

4. Eve is created from Adam's rib which was modified. This is how evolution is supposed to work by taking pre-existing materials and reworking it into something else.

5. Man is created last, not first, as according to some other creationist myths.

The author of Genesis may, thus, have left us clues about evolution but was mindful not to make it too overt as it would have probably offended his readers and created confusion.
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Re: The 7 deadly myths about creationism

#150  Postby Sendraks » Aug 22, 2018 10:32 pm

Wortfish wrote:
Common sense.


Please to be illustrating the process by which you apply this "common sense."
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Re: The 7 deadly myths about creationism

#151  Postby Fallible » Aug 23, 2018 6:35 am

Wortfish wrote:
aban57 wrote:
Wortfish wrote:Genesis, however, is not one of them. It is a creation myth used to explain God's purposes.


Who decides that exactly ? Who decides what has to be taken litterally, and what is myth ? And how do these people know they're right, compared to the other people having a different interpretation ?
I mean, if you believe the Bible is sacred, transmitted to us by God, who are you to say that some parts are myths ? Shouldn't you believe it to the letter ?

Common sense. In fact, some have read into Genesis a crypto-evolutionary message behind a creationist smokescreen.

1. God creates Adam from slime: The first living organisms are believed to have emerged from slime or something similar: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 143318.htm

2. In the Garden of Eden, there is a tree of life, just as in the modern phylogenetic tree of life representing common ancestry.

3. There is a talking snake who has his legs removed for being bad....snake ancestors did lose their legs in the evolutionary past.

4. Eve is created from Adam's rib which was modified. This is how evolution is supposed to work by taking pre-existing materials and reworking it into something else.

5. Man is created last, not first, as according to some other creationist myths.

The author of Genesis may, thus, have left us clues about evolution but was mindful not to make it too overt as it would have probably offended his readers and created confusion.


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Sorry that you think you had it rough in the first world.
You ought to get out a map sooner than later.
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Re: The 7 deadly myths about creationism

#152  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Aug 23, 2018 6:45 am

Wortfish wrote:
aban57 wrote:
Wortfish wrote:Genesis, however, is not one of them. It is a creation myth used to explain God's purposes.


Who decides that exactly ? Who decides what has to be taken litterally, and what is myth ? And how do these people know they're right, compared to the other people having a different interpretation ?
I mean, if you believe the Bible is sacred, transmitted to us by God, who are you to say that some parts are myths ? Shouldn't you believe it to the letter ?

Common sense.

Guess I'll have to repost this again:
Image
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: The 7 deadly myths about creationism

#153  Postby Blackadder » Aug 23, 2018 7:57 am

Wortfish wrote:
aban57 wrote:
Wortfish wrote:Genesis, however, is not one of them. It is a creation myth used to explain God's purposes.


Who decides that exactly ? Who decides what has to be taken litterally, and what is myth ? And how do these people know they're right, compared to the other people having a different interpretation ?
I mean, if you believe the Bible is sacred, transmitted to us by God, who are you to say that some parts are myths ? Shouldn't you believe it to the letter ?

Common sense.


That would be the same "common sense" that was once used by religious authorities to establish that the sun orbited the Earth, that disease was caused by curses and demonic possession and that crop yields could be improved by sacrificing small children to the god the day? Is that really the intellectual level at which you wish to operate? It seems so.
That credulity should be gross in proportion to the ignorance of the mind that it enslaves, is in strict consistency with the principle of human nature. - Percy Bysshe Shelley
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Re: The 7 deadly myths about creationism

#154  Postby Wortfish » Aug 23, 2018 6:21 pm

Sendraks wrote:
Wortfish wrote:
Common sense.


Please to be illustrating the process by which you apply this "common sense."


How many trees do you know that have fruit bearing the knowledge of good and evil?
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Re: The 7 deadly myths about creationism

#155  Postby Alan B » Aug 23, 2018 6:49 pm

There are trees with poisonous fruits.
There are trees with edible fruits.
And one has to have knowledge to know the difference.

Jebus! That's so obvious! :snooty:

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I have NO BELIEF in the existence of a God or gods. I do not have to offer evidence nor do I have to determine absence of evidence because I do not ASSERT that a God does or does not or gods do or do not exist.
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Re: The 7 deadly myths about creationism

#156  Postby Fallible » Aug 23, 2018 7:02 pm

Wortfish wrote:
Sendraks wrote:
Wortfish wrote:
Common sense.


Please to be illustrating the process by which you apply this "common sense."


How many trees do you know that have fruit bearing the knowledge of good and evil?


The same number that you do.
Sorry that you think you had it rough in the first world.
You ought to get out a map sooner than later.
Knowledge has turned into a trap; you have to slow down.
Get out of your head and spend less time alone.
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Re: The 7 deadly myths about creationism

#157  Postby newolder » Aug 23, 2018 7:18 pm

Family Tree
Tree of Life
Deciduous Tree
Evergreen Tree
Tremendous

Nope, got nothing about 'evil'. :dunno:
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Re: The 7 deadly myths about creationism

#158  Postby Spinozasgalt » Aug 23, 2018 9:55 pm

I have a lemon tree.
When the straight and narrow gets a little too straight, roll up the joint.
Or don't. Just follow your arrow wherever it points.

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Re: The 7 deadly myths about creationism

#159  Postby felltoearth » Aug 23, 2018 10:45 pm

Spinozasgalt wrote:I have a lemon tree.

It's very pretty.
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Re: The 7 deadly myths about creationism

#160  Postby Spinozasgalt » Aug 23, 2018 10:50 pm

Aww. Come 'ere.
Image
When the straight and narrow gets a little too straight, roll up the joint.
Or don't. Just follow your arrow wherever it points.

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