The 7 deadly myths about creationism

Misconceptions about what creationist believe

Incl. intelligent design, belief in divine creation

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Re: The 7 deadly myths about creationism

#61  Postby Alan C » Mar 30, 2018 1:44 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Wortfish wrote: around 700 million years ago, must have grown on soil
Plant life originated in the oceans and freshwater lakes Wortfish, not on dry land.

Indeed. I would so the gradual spread of the first mosses and their recent descendants laid the 'groundwork' for higher plants.
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Re: The 7 deadly myths about creationism

#62  Postby Wortfish » Mar 30, 2018 3:30 pm

Alan C wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Wortfish wrote: around 700 million years ago, must have grown on soil
Plant life originated in the oceans and freshwater lakes Wortfish, not on dry land.

Indeed. I would so the gradual spread of the first mosses and their recent descendants laid the 'groundwork' for higher plants.


That is a self-defeating point. If plant life originated in the oceans, then there was obviously no soil full of the remains of insects and the like there.
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Re: The 7 deadly myths about creationism

#63  Postby Wortfish » Mar 30, 2018 3:32 pm

laklak wrote:So Adam and Eve should be viewed as allegory. OK. How do you know what bits are allegory and what bits are "God's Revealed Truth"? Is there some special font? Looks to me like the entire fucking thing is allegory, just a bunch of desert goat roasters making up shit about things they didn't understand.

Like JRR Tolkien, I have detested allegory since I was old enough to detect its presence.


A talking snake, and a tree of the knowledge of good and evil, are obviously allegorical. Genesis is a work of theology, not of science or history. Unfortunately, in our fact-based society, we relegate the place of allegory. We mustn't conflate truth with fact.
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Re: The 7 deadly myths about creationism

#64  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Mar 30, 2018 3:35 pm

Wortfish wrote:
Alan C wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Wortfish wrote: around 700 million years ago, must have grown on soil
Plant life originated in the oceans and freshwater lakes Wortfish, not on dry land.

Indeed. I would so the gradual spread of the first mosses and their recent descendants laid the 'groundwork' for higher plants.


That is a self-defeating point.

That is a counterfactual assertion.

Wortfish wrote: If plant life originated in the oceans, then there was obviously no soil full of the remains of insects and the like there.

Once again confirming that you don't know what you're talking about or are just trolling in a mundane manner.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: The 7 deadly myths about creationism

#65  Postby Wortfish » Mar 30, 2018 3:36 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Wortfish wrote:then Eve from one of his ribs. He gave them both reproductive parts that allow the human race to profilerate and continue without having to create each and every one of us from scratch again and again: "Go forth and multiply!" That sounds a lot like evolution!

Only if you fail to understand what evolution is or are employing a dishonest humpty-dumpty definition.


Put it this way. In Genesis, takes a rib from Adam and clothes it with flesh to make Eve. That's a classic case of taking a pre-existing part and modifying it to make something original. Now, according to most accounts for eukaryogenesis, Evolution took a bacterium and inserted it into an archaeon to produce a new type of organism, a eukaryote.
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Re: The 7 deadly myths about creationism

#66  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Mar 30, 2018 3:39 pm

laklak wrote:So Adam and Eve should be viewed as allegory. OK. How do you know what bits are allegory and what bits are "God's Revealed Truth"? Is there some special font? Looks to me like the entire fucking thing is allegory, just a bunch of desert goat roasters making up shit about things they didn't understand.

Like JRR Tolkien, I have detested allegory since I was old enough to detect its presence.


A talking snake, and a tree of the knowledge of good and evil, are obviously allegorical.

Not in a book filled with miraculous claims like people living in whales, coming back from the dead, walking on water.
And you fail to provide a rigourous method to distinguish between whats allegorical and what's not.
Just asserting it's obvious doesn't make it so.

Genesis is a work of theology, not of science or history.

More baseless, idiosyncratic interpetation.

Unfortunately, in our fact-based society, we relegate the place of allegory.

Green sounds dream furiously.

We mustn't conflate truth with fact.

We also musn't confuse chocolate with vanilla, so what?
Once again you completely fail to adress the points being made, offering nothing but blind assertions and word salad.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: The 7 deadly myths about creationism

#67  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Mar 30, 2018 3:40 pm

Wortfish wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Wortfish wrote:then Eve from one of his ribs. He gave them both reproductive parts that allow the human race to profilerate and continue without having to create each and every one of us from scratch again and again: "Go forth and multiply!" That sounds a lot like evolution!

Only if you fail to understand what evolution is or are employing a dishonest humpty-dumpty definition.


Put it this way. In Genesis, takes a rib from Adam and clothes it with flesh to make Eve.

You can mindlessly regurgitate this is as much as you want, it'll still be fantastical nonsense.

Wortfish wrote:That's a classic case of taking a pre-existing part and modifying it to make something original.

And nowhere near analogous to evolution.

Wortfish wrote:Now, according to most accounts for eukaryogenesis, Evolution took a bacterium and inserted it into an archaeon to produce a new type of organism, a eukaryote.

Nope. Already poitned out to you that evolution isn't an entity nor does have intent or act.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: The 7 deadly myths about creationism

#68  Postby Wortfish » Mar 30, 2018 3:42 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Once again confirming that you don't know what you're talking about or are just trolling in a mundane manner.



Biology lesson: Plants are made up of water, proteins, fats, DNA, RNA, carbohydrates, cellulose and chlorophyll.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesi ... nts3.shtml

Plants get hydrogen and oxygen from water in the soil, and carbon and oxygen from carbon dioxide and oxygen in the atmosphere. Water and carbon dioxide are used to synthesise food during photosynthesis. Oxygen is used to release energy from food during respiration. In addition to these three elements, plants need a number of minerals for healthy growth. These are absorbed through the roots as mineral ions dissolved in the soil water. Two important mineral ions needed by plants are: nitrate - for making amino acids, which are needed to make proteins and magnesium - for making chlorophyll
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Re: The 7 deadly myths about creationism

#69  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Mar 30, 2018 3:43 pm

Wortfish wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Once again confirming that you don't know what you're talking about or are just trolling in a mundane manner.



Biology lesson: Plants are made up of water, proteins, fats, DNA, RNA, carbohydrates and chlorophyll.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesi ... nts3.shtml

Plants get hydrogen and oxygen from water in the soil, and carbon and oxygen from carbon dioxide and oxygen in the atmosphere. Water and carbon dioxide are used to synthesise food during photosynthesis. Oxygen is used to release energy from food during respiration. In addition to these three elements, plants need a number of minerals for healthy growth. These are absorbed through the roots as mineral ions dissolved in the soil water. Two important mineral ions needed by plants are: nitrate - for making amino acids, which are needed to make proteins and magnesium - for making chlorophyll

Copy pasting quotes and links to websites does not actually constitute making an argument Wortfish.
You've posted nothing to refute my point.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: The 7 deadly myths about creationism

#70  Postby Wortfish » Mar 30, 2018 3:44 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Copy pasting quotes and links to websites does not actually constitute making an argument Wortfish.
You've posted nothing to refute my point.


Plants need water and minerals taken from the soil to support their structure. They get their oxygen and food source from the air.
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Re: The 7 deadly myths about creationism

#71  Postby Wortfish » Mar 30, 2018 3:47 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Not in a book filled with miraculous claims like people living in whales, coming back from the dead, walking on water.
And you fail to provide a rigourous method to distinguish between whats allegorical and what's not.
Just asserting it's obvious doesn't make it so.


As I say, we live in a fact-based society where allegory is not used to convey truth. In the ancient world, allegory was the principal way of explaining deep meaning for which a purely factual account was unsatisfactory.
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Re: The 7 deadly myths about creationism

#72  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Mar 30, 2018 3:49 pm

Wortfish wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Copy pasting quotes and links to websites does not actually constitute making an argument Wortfish.
You've posted nothing to refute my point.


Plants need water and minerals taken from the soil to support their structure. They get their oxygen and food source from the air.

Still doesn't refute point I made Wortfish and that you fail to acknolwedge only serves to reinforce either your ignorance or trollish intent.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: The 7 deadly myths about creationism

#73  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Mar 30, 2018 3:49 pm

Wortfish wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Not in a book filled with miraculous claims like people living in whales, coming back from the dead, walking on water.
And you fail to provide a rigourous method to distinguish between whats allegorical and what's not.
Just asserting it's obvious doesn't make it so.


As I say, we live in a fact-based society where allegory is not used to convey truth. In the ancient world, allegory was the principal way of explaining deep meaning for which a purely factual account was unsatisfactory.

Another non-sequitur response that fails to adress the point being made.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: The 7 deadly myths about creationism

#74  Postby MS2 » Mar 30, 2018 4:35 pm

Wortfish wrote:
laklak wrote:So Adam and Eve should be viewed as allegory. OK. How do you know what bits are allegory and what bits are "God's Revealed Truth"? Is there some special font? Looks to me like the entire fucking thing is allegory, just a bunch of desert goat roasters making up shit about things they didn't understand.

Like JRR Tolkien, I have detested allegory since I was old enough to detect its presence.


A talking snake, and a tree of the knowledge of good and evil, are obviously allegorical. Genesis is a work of theology, not of science or history. Unfortunately, in our fact-based society, we relegate the place of allegory. We mustn't conflate truth with fact.

If you regard it as allegorical, do you not regard it as fully compatible with the reality of evolution? Could God not have created everything as it is now through the agency of evolution? If not, why not?
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Re: The 7 deadly myths about creationism

#75  Postby sdelsolray » Mar 30, 2018 4:45 pm

Wortfish wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Copy pasting quotes and links to websites does not actually constitute making an argument Wortfish.
You've posted nothing to refute my point.


Plants need water and minerals taken from the soil to support their structure. They get their oxygen and food source from the air.


Tide pools and other interfaces between bodies of water and land infuse the land with organic material and non-organic minerals. Plants do not consume oxygen (O2), they expel it as a waste product. I could go on.
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Re: The 7 deadly myths about creationism

#76  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Mar 30, 2018 4:46 pm

sdelsolray wrote:
Wortfish wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Copy pasting quotes and links to websites does not actually constitute making an argument Wortfish.
You've posted nothing to refute my point.


Plants need water and minerals taken from the soil to support their structure. They get their oxygen and food source from the air.


Tide pools and other interfaces between bodies of water and land infuse the land with organic material and non-organic minerals. Plants do not consume oxygen (O2), they expel it as a waste product. I could go on.

That would be a waste of time, as Wortfish will just ignore it, dismiss it out of hand or pretend you haven't pointed this out and simply repeat his rectally extracted assertion.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: The 7 deadly myths about creationism

#77  Postby felltoearth » Mar 30, 2018 7:02 pm

Wortfish wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Copy pasting quotes and links to websites does not actually constitute making an argument Wortfish.
You've posted nothing to refute my point.


Plants need water and minerals taken from the soil to support their structure. They get their oxygen and food source from the air.

No they don’t. You clearly know shit fuck all about plants.
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Re: The 7 deadly myths about creationism

#78  Postby Rumraket » Mar 31, 2018 2:56 am

Wortfish wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Wortfish wrote:then Eve from one of his ribs. He gave them both reproductive parts that allow the human race to profilerate and continue without having to create each and every one of us from scratch again and again: "Go forth and multiply!" That sounds a lot like evolution!

Only if you fail to understand what evolution is or are employing a dishonest humpty-dumpty definition.


Put it this way. In Genesis, takes a rib from Adam and clothes it with flesh to make Eve.

Where did the flesh come from? Did Eve have one less rib after this?

Actually don't even bother answering because it doesn't matter one way or the other. We know the biblical fable is wrong. Homo sapiens share common descent with probably all other life that currently exists on Earth and we know this beyond all rational doubt.
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Re: The 7 deadly myths about creationism

#79  Postby aban57 » Mar 31, 2018 8:53 am

Wortfish wrote:
As I say, we live in a fact-based society where allegory is not used to convey truth.


Because an allegory isn't always a perfect represeentation of reality, and because it is not necesarily true. It can be wrongfully used by someone who has an agenda, like converting masses fo uneducated people, for example.

Also, why would you make up an entire story to make a point, instead of actually making it ?
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Re: The 7 deadly myths about creationism

#80  Postby Wortfish » Mar 31, 2018 11:41 pm

MS2 wrote:
If you regard it as allegorical, do you not regard it as fully compatible with the reality of evolution? Could God not have created everything as it is now through the agency of evolution? If not, why not?

Most Christians and Jews regard it as allegorical/figurative, but evangelical Protestants believe every single word in Genesis is the inerrant and literal reality. Of course, as I have pointed out, by creating Eve from a rib of Adam, God shows that he can - like evolution - use existing parts to generate new ones.
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