Were dinosaurs descended from birds?

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Re: Were dinosaurs descended from birds?

#21  Postby Wortfish » Nov 06, 2018 3:29 am

theropod wrote:Oh, and Archaeopteryx lithographica is a maniraptoran theropod, but please continue your educational mastery, Wortfish. It also MIGHT be of interest to note that feathered maniraptoran theropods have been found which predate Archaeopteryx. This pretty much puts a hole below the waterline of your insipid lies.

RS


Birds like Protoavis texensis, long predate the theropods assumed to have evolved into birds.
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Re: Were dinosaurs descended from birds?

#22  Postby Fenrir » Nov 06, 2018 3:43 am

Ha.

That's a classic.

Now do Archaeoraptor liaoningensis. I bet that was really truly for reals a bird too.
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Re: Were dinosaurs descended from birds?

#23  Postby theropod » Nov 06, 2018 5:08 am

Sigh.

Protoavis texensis Is so problematic anyone seriously using it as a anchor for the emergence of birds clearly has NOT actually examined the issues surrounding it. More than likely it a chimera.

Next I suppose we are going to talk about fake Chinese fossils.

Wortfish, if you can’t do better than this just quit. I almost feel pity for you. Almost.

RS
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Re: Were dinosaurs descended from birds?

#24  Postby Blackadder » Nov 06, 2018 7:20 am

Hmmm. I’m getting a distinct whiff of old socks here.
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Re: Were dinosaurs descended from birds?

#25  Postby Fallible » Nov 06, 2018 10:38 am

Theropod, I wouldn't even bother with Wortfish. He's either a troll or more unwilling and unable to have a cogent discussion than almost anyone I've ever read on here.
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Re: Were dinosaurs descended from birds?

#26  Postby theropod » Nov 06, 2018 11:20 am

Fallible wrote:Theropod, I wouldn't even bother with Wortfish. He's either a troll or more unwilling and unable to have a cogent discussion than almost anyone I've ever read on here.


You are correct in your assessment, but this sort of thing forces me to use a few lazy neurons that have been binge watching “Breaking Bad” for the last couple years. Then there are the lurkers that might actually learn something, and that makes it worth the effort (what little is required to counter Wortfish). Then there is the fact that this sort of thing falls in my wheel house, and while retired my passion for paleontology has wained but a little. I probably should expend the effort to put together another titanic post addressing an important aspect of the fossil record, and ignore trivial distractions like this. It’s just cheap fun to watch the contortionist squirm when the thumbscrews of cold hard reality are brought to bear.

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Re: Were dinosaurs descended from birds?

#27  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Nov 06, 2018 1:05 pm

Fallible wrote:Theropod, I wouldn't even bother with Wortfish. He's either a troll or more unwilling and unable to have a cogent discussion than almost anyone I've ever read on here.

Ahem:
http://www.rationalskepticism.org/general-debunking/i-am-you-nonsense-t48598-360.html#p2661113
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Re: Were dinosaurs descended from birds?

#28  Postby Fallible » Nov 06, 2018 1:31 pm

'almost' :)

Roger, I think those are good points, but I wouldn't think for a second that he's squirming. I don't think he cares one bit about reconciling his alleged views with reality, or about anything other than spouting shit and watching people try to reason with him.
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Re: Were dinosaurs descended from birds?

#29  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Nov 06, 2018 2:19 pm

Fallible wrote:'almost' :)

Missed that. :oops:

Fallible wrote:
Roger, I think those are good points, but I wouldn't think for a second that he's squirming. I don't think he cares one bit about reconciling his alleged views with reality, or about anything other than spouting shit and watching people try to reason with him.

:nod:
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Were dinosaurs descended from birds?

#30  Postby Jayjay4547 » Nov 06, 2018 8:01 pm

Rumraket wrote:
Fenrir wrote:I'm quessing you wouldn't know what a cladogram represents and couldn't generate one if your life depended on it.

Or how progression from sea to land to air is reflected in the age of fossils for that matter.

Creationism cannot survive the collision with an actual understanding of the methods of cladistics, taxonomy, and phylogenetics and their application to real data from comparative physiology and genetics.

It is impossible for a thinking person to learn how the algorithms of classification and phylogenetics actually work, then to see what results they give when applied to real biological data, and still maintain their strange creationistic ideas. One would have to be absolutely crazy and delusional to remain a creationist.


Thanks for that. This cladistics that you shake in my face brought back a faint memory from around 1978 when a botanist friend said something to me about cladistics. I remember he was intense about it, though I can't be sure now, I hope he had something bad to say about cladistics.

Because, while I was fishing around this issue of the possible flying origin of dinosaurs, I came across the Wikipedia entry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phylogeny_of_pterosaurs That has three main cladograms of progressively later date and each coding for more characters. What struck me was that they didn't look at all similar. If they were converging on the truth, I really couldn't have confidence about their rate of convergence. Indeed they told me squat and I even got a bit annoyed because they seemed to reflect "original research"; which is one of the corruptions Wikipedia is fighting so hard against infecting its encyclopedia.

So long as I was feeling negative about cladograms it struck me that as a graphic, they oddly miss the obvious dimension of Time. If you grow one with the stem at the bottom and if it is so well calculated as to be correct then its vertical axis seems to represent nothing so much as space to create the graphic without lines crossing. Well if you pinned the vertical coordinate of each species to the dimension of time, you would get the Tree of Life; that marvellous summary and symbol of the Creation.
Image

So it seems to me that cladograms are sometimes non-robust tools (or weapons); it's no use shaking them in my face. And they are somehow like Frankenstein's monster; just working blind with characteristics of many species and without knowing anything about their time, a good algorithm will give you a reasonable facsimile of the history of life but wierdly distorted in time and somehow lifeless.

For one thing, leaving out the time dimension hides the dramatic extinction events that have been so formative in the creation.

The crippling effect of ignoring the time dimension in cladograms reminded me of how evolution enthusiasts are crippled by denying themselves the use of that useful word "Creation". Plus cognate terms like Learning, Teaching, Progress. Why? Just because of atheist ideology. But the story of the Creation is intrinsically to great that it must in the end break out of that straight jacket
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Re: Were dinosaurs descended from birds?

#31  Postby laklak » Nov 06, 2018 8:12 pm

Did you miss the timescale on the vertical axis?
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Re: Were dinosaurs descended from birds?

#32  Postby Sendraks » Nov 06, 2018 8:17 pm

JayJay whines about Cladistics whilst also demonstrating he knows nothing about cladistics. Case in point, posts of picture that is not a cladiogram.
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Re: Were dinosaurs descended from birds?

#33  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Nov 06, 2018 8:46 pm

Guys you still don't get it after all these years. It's not about the facts or evidence, it's about what things seem or don't seem like to Jayjay. The world does operate based on his (in)credulity after all. :crazy:
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Were dinosaurs descended from birds?

#34  Postby felltoearth » Nov 06, 2018 9:03 pm

Jayjay4547 wrote:
So long as I was feeling negative about cladograms it struck me that as a graphic, they oddly miss the obvious dimension of Time.


IKR!!!??!! I mean, I have the same problem with my family tree! How do I know that my grandfather isn’t ALSO my son? Someone throw a timeline on that shit, please!
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Re: Were dinosaurs descended from birds?

#35  Postby laklak » Nov 06, 2018 9:59 pm

At least your family tree has branches, mine is just a stick.
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Re: Were dinosaurs descended from birds?

#36  Postby Thommo » Nov 06, 2018 10:04 pm

felltoearth wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:
So long as I was feeling negative about cladograms it struck me that as a graphic, they oddly miss the obvious dimension of Time.


IKR!!!??!! I mean, I have the same problem with my family tree! How do I know that my grandfather isn’t ALSO my son? Someone throw a timeline on that shit, please!


Technically speaking I'm sure those are both scale issues rather than dimension issues.
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Re: Were dinosaurs descended from birds?

#37  Postby Jayjay4547 » Nov 07, 2018 6:42 am

Thommo wrote:
felltoearth wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:
So long as I was feeling negative about cladograms it struck me that as a graphic, they oddly miss the obvious dimension of Time.


IKR!!!??!! I mean, I have the same problem with my family tree! How do I know that my grandfather isn’t ALSO my son? Someone throw a timeline on that shit, please!


Technically speaking I'm sure those are both scale issues rather than dimension issues.



if the cladogram has a time axis in direction away from its stem then the pterosaurs are still with us. According to Science. Wait. maybe that's the real reason for flight delays out of Heathrow. Runway lights not working, My Eye. The Deep State still at work in the shadows.

When drawn on a sheet of paper, isn't the axis perpendicular to the stem of a cladogram, a proxy for phenotype space? That would be another weak joke, seeing that in reality, phenotype space has more axes than one could poke a stick at. But that's as much as mortals can manage and when we see a picture of a tree our mind easily accommodates the notion that the thing pictured actually has one more dimension and so "theoretically" it could have more.

If one adds the time dimension in the direction of the stem then it becomes the Tree of Life and horizontal sections through it map the region of phenotype space occupied by living things at that particular time. I mean, assuming its a pic of all critters, not just pterosaurs. Of All that has Breath and Life. Then it's the tree of knowing how to stay alive. and how to be conceived, to grow to adulthood and to procreate one's kind. so it's a picture of a Tree of Knowledge; an immensely complex structure of know-how that has come into being on this planet, though several times battered nearly flat.
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Re: Were dinosaurs descended from birds?

#38  Postby Wortfish » Nov 07, 2018 11:42 am

theropod wrote:Sigh.

Protoavis texensis Is so problematic anyone seriously using it as a anchor for the emergence of birds clearly has NOT actually examined the issues surrounding it. More than likely it a chimera.

Next I suppose we are going to talk about fake Chinese fossils.

Wortfish, if you can’t do better than this just quit. I almost feel pity for you. Almost.

RS


Well, there ARE fake fossils coming out of China: https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... y-excerpt/


The problem of faked fossils in China is serious and growing. It is exacerbated by the fact that most of the fossils are pulled from the ground by desperately poor farmers and then sold on to dealers and museums rather than being found by paleontologists on fossil digs, which is how specimens are discovered in most other parts of the world.....Another much more serious problem, however, is posed by forged, faked and manipulated specimens – such as National Geographic’s Archaeoraptor – which are becoming increasingly common.


Authenticity of China's Fabulous Fossils Gets New Scrutiny: http://science.sciencemag.org/content/340/6137/1153
DOI: 10.1126/science.340.6137.1153

Last week, a feathered fossil from northeastern China made headlines when paleontologists unveiled it as the earliest known bird. Aurornis was the latest in a decadelong string of splendidly preserved bird and dinosaur specimens from Liaoning province, where a burgeoning industry in fossil hunting and preparation has given scientists around the world access to many more specimens (Aurornis among them) than they could dig up themselves. But such secondhand fossils have a downside: Sloppy records or even outright forgeries can make it hard for researchers studying a specimen to tell where it came from, how old it is, or sometimes even whether it is genuine.


The great dinosaur fossil hoax: https://cosmosmagazine.com/palaeontolog ... ossil-hoax

Fossils can be faked in a variety of ways. Sometimes they’re hewn from parts from the same species but come from different individuals, so you might have a Microraptor skull, tail and body all from different individuals. Another method involves combining the parts of different species to make a complete fossil that appears to be a new animal.


In an authoritarian state like China, where forgery and intellectual property theft is rampant, you need to treat fossil specimens with a little more scrutiny than those found in the Badlands by scientists who live in a free country.
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Re: Were dinosaurs descended from birds?

#39  Postby Thommo » Nov 07, 2018 11:53 am

Jayjay4547 wrote:
Thommo wrote:Technically speaking I'm sure those are both scale issues rather than dimension issues.


if the cladogram has a time axis in direction away from its stem then the pterosaurs are still with us.


If it has an orthogonal linear scale time axis it might (although you've written that quite badly and it's hard to even tell what you think you mean). Of course you're replying to a post which didn't mention orthogonality, linearity or indeed axes. Thing is, I don't recall even saying that it was a graph, now I come to think of it.

I think that's a sign you've smuggled in a few additional premises.

ETA: Actually, in truth I can't even see pterosaurs on the diagram, so I'm not quite sure that you haven't just made that up. It certainly looks like plenty of lines of dinosaurs go extinct in the triassic, jurassic and cretaceous any of which could be pterosaurs, invalidating your claim (assuming you mean that the time axis is the orthogonal y-axis depicted).
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Re: Were dinosaurs descended from birds?

#40  Postby hackenslash » Nov 07, 2018 12:04 pm

Wortfish wrote:
theropod wrote:Sigh.

Protoavis texensis Is so problematic anyone seriously using it as a anchor for the emergence of birds clearly has NOT actually examined the issues surrounding it. More than likely it a chimera.

Next I suppose we are going to talk about fake Chinese fossils.

Wortfish, if you can’t do better than this just quit. I almost feel pity for you. Almost.

RS


Well, there ARE fake fossils coming out of China: https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... y-excerpt/


The problem of faked fossils in China is serious and growing. It is exacerbated by the fact that most of the fossils are pulled from the ground by desperately poor farmers and then sold on to dealers and museums rather than being found by paleontologists on fossil digs, which is how specimens are discovered in most other parts of the world.....Another much more serious problem, however, is posed by forged, faked and manipulated specimens – such as National Geographic’s Archaeoraptor – which are becoming increasingly common.


Authenticity of China's Fabulous Fossils Gets New Scrutiny: http://science.sciencemag.org/content/340/6137/1153
DOI: 10.1126/science.340.6137.1153

Last week, a feathered fossil from northeastern China made headlines when paleontologists unveiled it as the earliest known bird. Aurornis was the latest in a decadelong string of splendidly preserved bird and dinosaur specimens from Liaoning province, where a burgeoning industry in fossil hunting and preparation has given scientists around the world access to many more specimens (Aurornis among them) than they could dig up themselves. But such secondhand fossils have a downside: Sloppy records or even outright forgeries can make it hard for researchers studying a specimen to tell where it came from, how old it is, or sometimes even whether it is genuine.


The great dinosaur fossil hoax: https://cosmosmagazine.com/palaeontolog ... ossil-hoax

Fossils can be faked in a variety of ways. Sometimes they’re hewn from parts from the same species but come from different individuals, so you might have a Microraptor skull, tail and body all from different individuals. Another method involves combining the parts of different species to make a complete fossil that appears to be a new animal.


In an authoritarian state like China, where forgery and intellectual property theft is rampant, you need to treat fossil specimens with a little more scrutiny than those found in the Badlands by scientists who live in a free country.


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