Were dinosaurs descended from birds?

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Were dinosaurs descended from birds?

#1  Postby Jayjay4547 » Nov 05, 2018 7:28 am

If you haven't come across that notion before, remember that you heard it first from a creationist.

If one can dedicate a thread to someone, I dedicate this one to Jonathan Wells. Although, in his Icons of Evolution I think Wells was wrong to pour scorn on the idea that some non-flying dinosaurs had feathers. Dinosaurs might well have had feathers because they were descended from flying critters, like the ostrich is. It's seldom a good idea to pour scorn on an idea; an idea can be right or wrong or maybe partly right. To pour scorn is just to the express the crowd position.

The prospect that dinosaurs might be descended from flying critters back in the Triassic, comes from the perception that dinosaurs had somehow learned the trick of making a strong and yet light skeleton; something that mammals never learned, (except for bats). As exhibit, I plan to drop in a pic of giraffe neck vertebrae, compared with those of argentinosaurus.

Many pitfalls face the prediction that such a fossil will be found in the Triassic beds. It could even be wrong but it would be marvelous if true; that a particular lineage repeatedly budded species that shuffled between flying and walking. How creative our Creator!
Last edited by Jayjay4547 on Nov 05, 2018 7:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Were dinosaurs descended from birds?

#2  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Nov 05, 2018 7:35 am

Jayjay4547 wrote:If you haven't come across that notion before, remember that you heard it first from a creationist.

Not surprising since you got it wrong.

Either you failed to a 5 minute google search on the relationship between birds and dinosaurs, or your trolling is fallen to truly vapid levels.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Were dinosaurs descended from birds?

#3  Postby Fenrir » Nov 05, 2018 7:40 am

I'm quessing you wouldn't know what a cladogram represents and couldn't generate one if your life depended on it.

Or how progression from sea to land to air is reflected in the age of fossils for that matter.
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Re: Were dinosaurs descended from birds?

#4  Postby theropod » Nov 05, 2018 1:12 pm

Sigh.

If only I had bothered to post on this very topic, in detail, several years back perhaps this sort of absurdity wouldn’t have happened. Oh wait, I did that very thing, and formulated another distinct post about the emergence of dinosaurs. Too lazy to post links, but those posts are still here.

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Re: Were dinosaurs descended from birds?

#5  Postby Rumraket » Nov 05, 2018 2:09 pm

Fenrir wrote:I'm quessing you wouldn't know what a cladogram represents and couldn't generate one if your life depended on it.

Or how progression from sea to land to air is reflected in the age of fossils for that matter.

Creationism cannot survive the collision with an actual understanding of the methods of cladistics, taxonomy, and phylogenetics and their application to real data from comparative physiology and genetics.

It is impossible for a thinking person to learn how the algorithms of classification and phylogenetics actually work, then to see what results they give when applied to real biological data, and still maintain their strange creationistic ideas. One would have to be absolutely crazy and delusional to remain a creationist.
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Re: Were dinosaurs descended from birds?

#6  Postby Wortfish » Nov 05, 2018 5:35 pm

Jayjay4547 wrote:If you haven't come across that notion before, remember that you heard it first from a creationist.

If one can dedicate a thread to someone, I dedicate this one to Jonathan Wells. Although, in his Icons of Evolution I think Wells was wrong to pour scorn on the idea that some non-flying dinosaurs had feathers. Dinosaurs might well have had feathers because they were descended from flying critters, like the ostrich is. It's seldom a good idea to pour scorn on an idea; an idea can be right or wrong or maybe partly right. To pour scorn is just to the express the crowd position.

The prospect that dinosaurs might be descended from flying critters back in the Triassic, comes from the perception that dinosaurs had somehow learned the trick of making a strong and yet light skeleton; something that mammals never learned, (except for bats). As exhibit, I plan to drop in a pic of giraffe neck vertebrae, compared with those of argentinosaurus.

Many pitfalls face the prediction that such a fossil will be found in the Triassic beds. It could even be wrong but it would be marvelous if true; that a particular lineage repeatedly budded species that shuffled between flying and walking. How creative our Creator!


No. Birds are not descended from dinosaurs. They are descended from smaller tree-dwelling archosaurs.
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Re: Were dinosaurs descended from birds?

#7  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Nov 05, 2018 6:05 pm

Wortfish wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:If you haven't come across that notion before, remember that you heard it first from a creationist.

If one can dedicate a thread to someone, I dedicate this one to Jonathan Wells. Although, in his Icons of Evolution I think Wells was wrong to pour scorn on the idea that some non-flying dinosaurs had feathers. Dinosaurs might well have had feathers because they were descended from flying critters, like the ostrich is. It's seldom a good idea to pour scorn on an idea; an idea can be right or wrong or maybe partly right. To pour scorn is just to the express the crowd position.

The prospect that dinosaurs might be descended from flying critters back in the Triassic, comes from the perception that dinosaurs had somehow learned the trick of making a strong and yet light skeleton; something that mammals never learned, (except for bats). As exhibit, I plan to drop in a pic of giraffe neck vertebrae, compared with those of argentinosaurus.

Many pitfalls face the prediction that such a fossil will be found in the Triassic beds. It could even be wrong but it would be marvelous if true; that a particular lineage repeatedly budded species that shuffled between flying and walking. How creative our Creator!


No. Birds are not descended from dinosaurs. They are descended from smaller tree-dwelling archosaurs.

:picard:
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Were dinosaurs descended from birds?

#8  Postby theropod » Nov 05, 2018 6:56 pm

Wortfish,

Please cite something to support your assertion that maniraptoran theropod dinosaurs did not give rise to birds, and please use a source from actual studies of real specimens.

In the mean time take a look at the post I put together HERE. I would appreciate your input. Considering the years I spent in both deep study, and hands on application, I feel my cited sources tell a different story.

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Re: Were dinosaurs descended from birds?

#9  Postby Wortfish » Nov 05, 2018 8:42 pm

theropod wrote:Wortfish,

Please cite something to support your assertion that maniraptoran theropod dinosaurs did not give rise to birds, and please use a source from actual studies of real specimens.

In the mean time take a look at the post I put together HERE. I would appreciate your input. Considering the years I spent in both deep study, and hands on application, I feel my cited sources tell a different story.

RS


Jurassic archosaur is a non-dinosaurian bird: https://link.springer.com/article/10.10 ... 014-1098-9

Along with unique adaptations for an arboreal lifestyle, Scansoriopteryx fulfills predictions from the early twentieth century that the ancestors of birds did not evolve from dinosaurs, and instead were derived from earlier arboreal archosaurs which originated flight according to the traditional trees-down scenario.
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Re: Were dinosaurs descended from birds?

#10  Postby theropod » Nov 05, 2018 9:11 pm

Ok, if you want to resort to this, and it raises no red flags for you, feel free to buy into this argument. The trouble arises when one examines a broader spectrum of sources. If you had bothered to read the post wherein I examine this issue more fully you would discover that many of the findings of A.F. et al have been found wanting.

Nevertheless I expected your response to be just so, and it informs me that rather than examine the issue in depth you have reached a conclusion via confirmational bias.

Thanks for playing.

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Re: Were dinosaurs descended from birds?

#11  Postby felltoearth » Nov 05, 2018 9:22 pm

As exemplified in other threads, Wortfish has little concept of what peer reviewed science is and why it matters.
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Re: Were dinosaurs descended from birds?

#12  Postby Wortfish » Nov 05, 2018 10:09 pm

theropod wrote:Ok, if you want to resort to this, and it raises no red flags for you, feel free to buy into this argument. The trouble arises when one examines a broader spectrum of sources. If you had bothered to read the post wherein I examine this issue more fully you would discover that many of the findings of A.F. et al have been found wanting.

Nevertheless I expected your response to be just so, and it informs me that rather than examine the issue in depth you have reached a conclusion via confirmational bias.

Thanks for playing.

RS


And this...Cardio‐pulmonary anatomy in theropod dinosaurs: Implications from extant archosaurs: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/jmor.10752

Theropods were unlikely to have possessed a specialized bird‐like, air‐sac lung. The likely absence of bird‐like pulmonary function in theropods is inconsistent with suggestions of cardiovascular anatomy more sophisticated than that of modern crocodilians.


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Re: Were dinosaurs descended from birds?

#13  Postby theropod » Nov 05, 2018 10:39 pm

Wortfish,

For the love of all that is good just go read the thread I posted and stop making a fool of yourself. This issue highlights just how little you understand about the ongoing, and constantly improving, research into this issue. Your citation is from 2009, and was wrong then. Now there have been confirmation in several different types of theopods WITH the exact pulmonary anatomy as described. Some of these theropods are far removed from the maniraptoran theropods, which is an indicator of the pervasive trait among all theropods.

Please use proper citing format so that we all may check your sources more easily, and include the DOI number if possible. Need I explain why this common curtesy should be extended? Besides ease of use by other forum members such practice allows for searching for other repositories where full access is possible.

Unless you are willing to at least review my post, and the extensive citations therein, I have little interest in continuing this. I addressed every issue you are raising, and I refuse to cover the same ground twice. I feel I amassed a preponderance of positive evidence in said thread, and your apparent refusal to even look is tantamount to a slap in the face. Surely you can appreciate my position in this regard, and if not there is no point in further exchange.

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Re: Were dinosaurs descended from birds?

#14  Postby Wortfish » Nov 05, 2018 10:57 pm

theropod wrote:Wortfish,

For the love of all that is good just go read the thread I posted and stop making a fool of yourself. This issue highlights just how little you understand about the ongoing, and constantly improving, research into this issue. Your citation is from 2009, and was wrong then. Now there have been confirmation in several different types of theopods WITH the exact pulmonary anatomy as described. Some of these theropods are far removed from the maniraptoran theropods, which is an indicator of the pervasive trait among all theropods.

Please use proper citing format so that we all may check your sources more easily, and include the DOI number if possible. Need I explain why this common curtesy should be extended? Besides ease of use by other forum members such practice allows for searching for other repositories where full access is possible.

Unless you are willing to at least review my post, and the extensive citations therein, I have little interest in continuing this. I addressed every issue you are raising, and I refuse to cover the same ground twice. I feel I amassed a preponderance of positive evidence in said thread, and your apparent refusal to even look is tantamount to a slap in the face. Surely you can appreciate my position in this regard, and if not there is no point in further exchange.

RS


Theropods, including Maniraptora, are just too large and too specialized for terrestrial cursoriality to give rise to birds; they possess anatomical characters that preclude an avian ancestry, and appear too late in the Mesozoic record to be ancestral to Archaeopteryx. It isn't even a serious proposition (Kentucky Fried Dino) and most ornithologists dismiss it outright.
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Re: Were dinosaurs descended from birds?

#15  Postby hackenslash » Nov 05, 2018 11:08 pm

Sorry, did you really just say that theropods were too big to have given rise to aves? Just need to be certain whether to get a hernia surgeon on hold at the MRI before I start laughing.

I can enjoy an good belly laugh at you arguing with a paleontologist either way.
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Re: Were dinosaurs descended from birds?

#16  Postby theropod » Nov 05, 2018 11:23 pm

Oh, and Archaeopteryx lithographica is a maniraptoran theropod, but please continue your educational mastery, Wortfish. It also MIGHT be of interest to note that feathered maniraptoran theropods have been found which predate Archaeopteryx. This pretty much puts a hole below the waterline of your insipid lies.

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Re: Were dinosaurs descended from birds?

#17  Postby Sendraks » Nov 05, 2018 11:25 pm

Wortfish wrote:and most ornithologists dismiss it outright.


Do you really think such utter bollocks is going to impress people vastly more knowlegable on this subject than you are?
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Re: Were dinosaurs descended from birds?

#18  Postby MS2 » Nov 05, 2018 11:37 pm

hackenslash wrote:Sorry, did you really just say that theropods were too big to have given rise to aves?

He said it, but he didn’t say it first: https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/te ... -movement/.
The guy is a plagiarist and a troll.
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Re: Were dinosaurs descended from birds?

#19  Postby MS2 » Nov 05, 2018 11:43 pm

Wortfish wrote:
theropod wrote:Wortfish,

For the love of all that is good just go read the thread I posted and stop making a fool of yourself. This issue highlights just how little you understand about the ongoing, and constantly improving, research into this issue. Your citation is from 2009, and was wrong then. Now there have been confirmation in several different types of theopods WITH the exact pulmonary anatomy as described. Some of these theropods are far removed from the maniraptoran theropods, which is an indicator of the pervasive trait among all theropods.

Please use proper citing format so that we all may check your sources more easily, and include the DOI number if possible. Need I explain why this common curtesy should be extended? Besides ease of use by other forum members such practice allows for searching for other repositories where full access is possible.

Unless you are willing to at least review my post, and the extensive citations therein, I have little interest in continuing this. I addressed every issue you are raising, and I refuse to cover the same ground twice. I feel I amassed a preponderance of positive evidence in said thread, and your apparent refusal to even look is tantamount to a slap in the face. Surely you can appreciate my position in this regard, and if not there is no point in further exchange.

RS


Theropods, including Maniraptora, are just too large and too specialized for terrestrial cursoriality to give rise to birds; they possess anatomical characters that preclude an avian ancestry, and appear too late in the Mesozoic record to be ancestral to Archaeopteryx. It isn't even a serious proposition (Kentucky Fried Dino) and most ornithologists dismiss it outright.

Just quoting so it doesn’t get edited
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Re: Were dinosaurs descended from birds?

#20  Postby laklak » Nov 06, 2018 12:34 am

If birds came from theropod dinosaurs then why are there still theropo...

wait a minute.....
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