What is the difference between ID and "theistic evolution"?

Incl. intelligent design, belief in divine creation

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Re: What is the difference between ID and "theistic evolution"?

#461  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Sep 14, 2017 6:41 am

Wortfish wrote:
Sendraks wrote:
So the deity you're trying to define, clearly isn't omnipotent. Whilst this does resolve a lot of issues (why doesn't this deity divert X disaster/basically does fuck all), it also raises issues about how your definition is different to that of other theists. Which definition are we supposed to work to?

Basically.

Stop squirming.
:lol:


No. It refers to the fact that establishing a set of rules, interactions and principles means not tampering and changing them all the time - else they would not have any real meaning as rules.

Ah, so Western legal systems is another subject you do not understand, just like parenting.

Again, an omnipotent god would be able to break any rules.
Again, there's no reason for such a god to create a system that restrains himself, rather than just the universe.
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Re: What is the difference between ID and "theistic evolution"?

#462  Postby Scot Dutchy » Sep 14, 2017 7:01 am

Still not answering the question about the universes Wortfish. Of course your magic book has no answers because when god was invented there was no concept of universe. In fact there was no concept of our solar system and to go further there was not concept of Earth. The ancient world was just that ancient as is every religion. Earth was flat and its centre was Jerusalem. The sun and moon appeared and disappeared to the terror of the people. Would the sun return? Very simple and so is it still; very simple.
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Re: What is the difference between ID and "theistic evolution"?

#463  Postby BlackBart » Sep 14, 2017 8:06 am

Wortfish wrote:
BlackBart wrote:He can't do things that are logically incoherent, like exist.

There is no logical incoherence in God's necessary existence.

Except that its totally redundant. I take it that this God thingy is supposed to be a living sentient intelligence? So you're announcing that living sentient intelligences are impossible in nature so must have been created by a ... Er... living sentient intelligence?

You're seriously asserting that?

Fuuucking Nora.
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Re: What is the difference between ID and "theistic evolution"?

#464  Postby Cito di Pense » Sep 14, 2017 8:46 am

Wortfish wrote:winning the lottery and learning you have inherited a fortune, and learning that your wife has unexpectedly and suddenly recovered from cancer - all on the same day. That would be grounds to suppose a miracle had taken place.


So you say.
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Re: What is the difference between ID and "theistic evolution"?

#465  Postby surreptitious57 » Sep 14, 2017 10:00 am

Wortfish wrote:
winning the lottery and learning you have inherited a fortune and learning that your wife has unexpectedly and
suddenly recovered from cancer - all on the same day. That would be grounds to suppose a miracle had taken place

All those things are entirely possible even if the odds of them happening on the same day are infinitesimal since infinitesimal is still within reason even if you do not think it is. A miracle would have to be some thing that defied all rational explanation What you have described is not a miracle but unconnected though explainable events occurring within a specific time period
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Re: What is the difference between ID and "theistic evolution"?

#466  Postby Sendraks » Sep 14, 2017 10:36 am

Wortfish wrote:
No. It refers to the fact that establishing a set of rules, interactions and principles means not tampering and changing them all the time - else they would not have any real meaning as rules.


This is irrelevant when it comes to an omnipotent entity. An omnipotent deity can do whatever it likes. An omnipotent deity can choose not to change the rules once it has set them up but, being omnipotent, there is no reason why it should have set the rules up in a particular way.

Wortfish wrote:The best systems require the least intervention.

You're again conflating human made processes with how the universe simply is but, failing to see that you're simply trying to assume that a) there is something behind those processes and b) you're anthropomorphising onto it. Basically, you don't even recognise you're simply projecting humanity onto things.

Wortfish wrote:But God being good, cannot do evil.

Either god cannot do anything or god willingly allows evil to happen.

Wortfish wrote: Likewise, having created a universe, God cannot destroy it.

Why not?

Wortfish wrote: So omnipotence refers to God being all-powerful, but not in an absolute or arbitrary sense,

So God isn't omnipotent. Because to be omnipotent is absolute.

Wortfish wrote:rather in the sense that everything depends on him for their existence and that there is no greater power than the deity.

How do you know? How do you know that God wasn't created by another entity more powerful than God is simply testing to see how well God is working out?

Wortfish wrote: God may also choose to limit himself to working with, rather than against, natural processes to produce desired effects.

Ah, so God is omnipotent but, chooses not to use his power, so that natural processes which cause great suffering and harm, happen.

If you could make it through a post without stumbling over your own arguments and contradicting yourself, that'd be grand.
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Re: What is the difference between ID and "theistic evolution"?

#467  Postby Shrunk » Sep 14, 2017 11:14 am

Wortfish wrote:#2 refers not to some natural phenomenon for which we don't know too much about, but rather an undiscovered/unknown one.


Perhaps you could elaborate on the difference between the two, because I can't see it.

#3 doesn't refers to several extremely unlikely events happening at once: winning the lottery and learning you have inherited a fortune, and learning that your wife has unexpectedly and suddenly recovered from cancer - all on the same day. That would be grounds to suppose a miracle had taken place.


:picard:

Nothing more to say.
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Re: What is the difference between ID and "theistic evolution"?

#468  Postby Calilasseia » Sep 14, 2017 8:13 pm

So Wortfish is now effectively asserting that coincidence = miracle?

This is hilarious.
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Re: What is the difference between ID and "theistic evolution"?

#469  Postby Zadocfish2 » Sep 15, 2017 2:42 am

Calilasseia wrote:So Wortfish is now effectively asserting that coincidence = miracle?

This is hilarious.


Hey, woah, that's an identical point to the thread I made a bit ago! http://www.rationalskepticism.org/chris ... 54399.html

The idea was... not well received. I guess I know what Cali thinks of the idea now...
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Re: What is the difference between ID and "theistic evolution"?

#470  Postby Greyman » Sep 17, 2017 4:08 am

Sort of, Zadocfish2. You were wondering if apparently meaningful coincidences were actually a subtle means of communication arranged by an extremely-shy omnipotent being, rather than just false-positive pattern-recognition triggers.

Wortfish is just defining "miracle" as an incredibly fortunate series of coincidences, to reinforce his claim that his incredulity proves that Ptah did it.
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Re: What is the difference between ID and "theistic evolution"?

#471  Postby Wortfish » Sep 17, 2017 11:23 am

Calilasseia wrote:So Wortfish is now effectively asserting that coincidence = miracle?

This is hilarious.


Not really. But it can be argued that the simultaneous occurrence of many extremely improbably events is miraculous.
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Re: What is the difference between ID and "theistic evolution"?

#472  Postby Wortfish » Sep 17, 2017 11:27 am

Shrunk wrote:
Wortfish wrote:#2 refers not to some natural phenomenon for which we don't know too much about, but rather an undiscovered/unknown one.


Perhaps you could elaborate on the difference between the two, because I can't see it.


Suspension of natural law is quite different from there being an undiscovered law or phenomenon. In the example I gave about throwing a pen in the air, and it remaining there, I offered two possibilities: 1) the law of gravity is suspended by a supernatual entity. 2) somene uses psyschokinesis - natural powers unknown to science - to prevent the pen from falling.
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Re: What is the difference between ID and "theistic evolution"?

#473  Postby Wortfish » Sep 17, 2017 11:30 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Wortfish wrote:
winning the lottery and learning you have inherited a fortune and learning that your wife has unexpectedly and
suddenly recovered from cancer - all on the same day. That would be grounds to suppose a miracle had taken place

All those things are entirely possible even if the odds of them happening on the same day are infinitesimal since infinitesimal is still within reason even if you do not think it is. A miracle would have to be some thing that defied all rational explanation What you have described is not a miracle but unconnected though explainable events occurring within a specific time period


Such an outcome is possible, but the chances of it happening are so remote that it can be regarded as a miracle.
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Re: What is the difference between ID and "theistic evolution"?

#474  Postby Shrunk » Sep 17, 2017 12:19 pm

Wortfish wrote:
Shrunk wrote:
Wortfish wrote:#2 refers not to some natural phenomenon for which we don't know too much about, but rather an undiscovered/unknown one.


Perhaps you could elaborate on the difference between the two, because I can't see it.


Suspension of natural law is quite different from there being an undiscovered law or phenomenon. In the example I gave about throwing a pen in the air, and it remaining there, I offered two possibilities: 1) the law of gravity is suspended by a supernatual entity. 2) somene uses psyschokinesis - natural powers unknown to science - to prevent the pen from falling.


That's not an answer to my question.
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Re: What is the difference between ID and "theistic evolution"?

#475  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Sep 17, 2017 12:20 pm

Wortfish wrote:
Calilasseia wrote:So Wortfish is now effectively asserting that coincidence = miracle?

This is hilarious.


Not really. But it can be argued that the simultaneous occurrence of many extremely improbably events is miraculous.

Only in the metaphorical sense, not in the literal sense.
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Re: What is the difference between ID and "theistic evolution"?

#476  Postby Shrunk » Sep 17, 2017 12:21 pm

Wortfish wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
Wortfish wrote:
winning the lottery and learning you have inherited a fortune and learning that your wife has unexpectedly and
suddenly recovered from cancer - all on the same day. That would be grounds to suppose a miracle had taken place

All those things are entirely possible even if the odds of them happening on the same day are infinitesimal since infinitesimal is still within reason even if you do not think it is. A miracle would have to be some thing that defied all rational explanation What you have described is not a miracle but unconnected though explainable events occurring within a specific time period


Such an outcome is possible, but the chances of it happening are so remote that it can be regarded as a miracle.


Provide the precise numerical probability at which a random occurrence should be considered a "miracle", and show how this number was derived.
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Re: What is the difference between ID and "theistic evolution"?

#477  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Sep 17, 2017 12:21 pm

Wortfish wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
Wortfish wrote:
winning the lottery and learning you have inherited a fortune and learning that your wife has unexpectedly and
suddenly recovered from cancer - all on the same day. That would be grounds to suppose a miracle had taken place

All those things are entirely possible even if the odds of them happening on the same day are infinitesimal since infinitesimal is still within reason even if you do not think it is. A miracle would have to be some thing that defied all rational explanation What you have described is not a miracle but unconnected though explainable events occurring within a specific time period


Such an outcome is possible, but the chances of it happening are so remote that it can be regarded as a miracle.

Again, that's not what miraculous means in a literal sense.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: What is the difference between ID and "theistic evolution"?

#478  Postby Wortfish » Sep 17, 2017 7:22 pm

Shrunk wrote:
Provide the precise numerical probability at which a random occurrence should be considered a "miracle", and show how this number was derived.

I believe, if the odds are less than 1 in 10^40, then we can rule out the possibility of sheer chance.
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Re: What is the difference between ID and "theistic evolution"?

#479  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Sep 17, 2017 7:48 pm

Wortfish wrote:
Shrunk wrote:
Provide the precise numerical probability at which a random occurrence should be considered a "miracle", and show how this number was derived.

I believe, if the odds are less than 1 in 10^40, then we can rule out the possibility of sheer chance.

Based on what?
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: What is the difference between ID and "theistic evolution"?

#480  Postby Rumraket » Sep 17, 2017 9:13 pm

Wortfish wrote:
Shrunk wrote:
Provide the precise numerical probability at which a random occurrence should be considered a "miracle", and show how this number was derived.

I believe, if the odds are less than 1 in 10^40, then we can rule out the possibility of sheer chance.

Go to Random Letter Sequence Generator.
In the field "Length of each random letter sequence:" enter "29". Leave the other fields at default. Press the button "click to generate random sequence" and observe your miracle at the click of a button. Press it again. Another miracle. Press it ten times, you've witnessed ten miracles.

Clearly your definition of a miracle is utterly fucking ridiculous. :coffee:
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