Why are creationists called frequently liars at this forum ?

[NatureTestifiesGod]

That is a acusation, i hear constantly being thrown at me. That i am lying. Lets look a littlebit closer to it.
First of all, what reason do you think, could i or any creationist that visits and posts at this forum, possibly have, to willfullingly lie to the skeptics ? How and why would that make sense ? That means, i would be a skeptic or atheist or naturalist, but would come here, and present a oposing, creationist position, despite of what i really believe, trying to delude you. That is obviously not the case. I am sincere in regard of what i present that i believe. The belief of special creation is something, that goes into the core of my heart. It is , what i deeply believe and defend, for manyfold reasons. These reasons are the result of knowledge, which i adquired over 20 years based on personal experience, the study of theology, philosophy, and science. My position is based on reason, on intuition, on personal experience, and testimonies of other believers, all over the globe. That knowledge, and the result, which is belief in God, is the most precious experience i have found in my life. The knowledge, that there is a unimaginably powerful creator of all things, that despite me being so small, loves me, cares for me, and has a plan for my life. I am fully aware that this special plan is happening based on special personal experiences, which i will not expose here, since they are personal. What i want to say however , is following : If you do want to make a convincing and compelling case for positive or strong atheism, stop acusing the counterpart of lying. That is just a signal of weakness. Rather than this, make a strong case of your own. Defend your position based on good, compelling and convincing evidence, which does back up your position. Stop name calling the counterpart, stop calling creationist as liars, they are not! That will make a discussion more productive, and maibe you can learn a lot more of things...... even if you do not agree in the end. It will make you grow as well as a person.

[chairman bill]

Personal experience counts for sod all. Philosophy, whilst a useful endeavour, doesn't necessarily relate to what is factual & true. Theology is worthless discussion of fantasy. Your knowledge & understanding of science appears to be even worse than your spelling & grammar, i.e. woeful.

As for the lying part - whenever someone misrepresents something/body, they are lying. Whenever they assert something to be true, without good cause to believe it true, they are lying. Truth claims, grounded in fantasy & wishful thinking, are also lies, even if they are true, because the person making the claim has no good grounds to assert the claim. And there are loads of 'em about.

[DaveScriv]

Creationists are often called liars here because they keep repeating lies well after they've been called out on lies they've been peddling. Here I don't mean you, but more like leading 'Liars for Jebus', such as Kent Hovind, Ken Ham and Ray Comfort, in the last case, for example, when he continued to peddle his line about bananas long after he was told that bananas as we know them are a completely man made sterile hybrid ('Cavendish'), nothing like the virtually inedible wild banana.

[Richiyaado]

Just a quick example. Jonathan Wells, DI fellow and author of 'Icons of Evolution,' said he wrote his book because he was 'surprised' to discover what he claimed were fatal weaknesses in evolutionary theory. Later, it was revealed that the only reason he had pursued an advanced degree in biology was because he wanted to discredit evolution for 'Father' (he's a Moonie). It was shown that he'd said this long before the publication of his book. So was he really 'surprised' as he'd claimed, or was he simply lying?

[NatureTestifiesGod]

Here I don't mean you

You might not mean me, but check how often my posts have been classified as lies........

[scott1328]

Creationist are called liars because they lie and are dishonest.

[NatureTestifiesGod]

Just a quick example. Jonathan Wells, DI fellow and author of 'Icons of Evolution,' said he wrote his book because he was 'surprised' to discover what he claimed were fatal weaknesses in evolutionary theory. Later, it was revealed that the only reason he had pursued an advanced degree in biology was because he wanted to discredit evolution for 'Father' (he's a Moonie). It was shown that he'd said this long before the publication of his book. So was he really 'surprised' as he'd claimed, or was he simply lying?

i am not arguing, that there might be creationists, which did willfullingly lie to defend their case. That happens btw. on both sides. There are many lies in evolution science books. But i don't make a case based on that. Neither do i all the time call skeptics or atheist arguments lies. I think that is a weak argument. Rather do i prefere to concentrate on the subject, and try to find the best explanation for given phenomena. That makes a discussion more productive.

[NatureTestifiesGod]

Creationist are called liars because they lie and are dishonest.

Then you loose your time with them.

[scott1328]

Creationist are called liars because they lie and are dishonest.

Then you loose your time with them.

What?

[Weaver]

i am not arguing, that there might be creationists, which did willfullingly lie to defend their case. That happens btw. on both sides. There are many lies in evolution science books. But i don't make a case based on that. Neither do i all the time call skeptics or atheist arguments lies. I think that is a weak argument. Rather do i prefere to concentrate on the subject, and try to find the best explanation for given phenomena. That makes a discussion more productive.

Citation needed. What are these lies of which you speak?

Fair warning - don't try to parrot some crap from the Dishonesty Institute (Discovery Institute) about pepper moths or transitional fossils - we've heard them all.

[theropod]

When you present so-called evidence about the fossil record, have that LIE exposed as a LIE and then go into silent running about the LIE, with no retraction, it constitutes ample reason to make note of the LIES. Your POSITION was nothing but LIES.

You want to fucking degrade the work of real paleontologists, some of whom I know on a personal level, and expect LIES not to be called LIES? Good luck with that.

Now, you are not your posted words here, and your words here are all I give a shit about.

You have not studied near enough paleontology to even being to lecture us here, as your post about the whale fossils bares excellent witness. The fact is your POSITION was nothing about the facts, but was a set of LIES fabricated in an utterly failed attempt to discredit the hard work of real scientists. If you choose to feel that your position and your person are one in the same then do so, but do not expect, much less demand, that your opposition accept your limitations.

Your posts contain LIES. Don't like having that pointed out? Stop posting creationist bullshit LIES.

RS

[Ihavenofingerprints]

Where exactly in the bible does it say that Jesus wants religious institutions spending millions of dollars, and countless hours of their time researching the intelligent design theory? I thought he was less about empirically proving the existence of Yaweh and more about helping the less fortunate?

[Nicko]

First of all, if you have been called a liar on this forum, you would have recourse in the FUA. Of course, you have most likely not been called a liar; rather, it has been stated or suggested that you have lied. Which brings me to my second point.

Take it as a compliment.

Effectively, people are saying, "I don't think you are an idiot, therefore you must be lying."

As far as making a case for positive atheism without calling people liars goes, have a look at this and this for starters. Oh, also this for an expansion of what CB said about the honesty of holding a belief for what should be easily recognisable as very bad reasons.

[DaveScriv]

Here I don't mean you

You might not mean me, but check how often my posts have been classified as lies........

I might have said similar in those threads, but chose just to read them as a 'lurker'.
To be honest, I just couldn't be bothered to write long posts of 'sciency stuff', and there seemed not to be a shortage of others who did have the time and inclination to present ample evidence that evolution is a fact.

By the way, did anyone mention the 'London Underground mosquito'? Google it. A great example of a new species of a relatively complex species (i.e. considerably bigger than a virus or bacterium) which has evolved in just over a century. not quite quick enough for the usual creotard response, "Were you there?", but well within the limits of accurate recording by just a few generations of biologists.

[Richiyaado]

I gather, NTG, you agree that Jonathan Wells is a liar. Good. How about this: The DI's 'wedge' strategy was clearly never intended to be made public, but was leaked. In it, there's nothing about doing rigorous science. Rather, it's a step-by-step plan to harness politics, public relations and propaganda to sow public doubt about science (particularly evolutionary theory), and thus set the stage for religious dominion in government (theocracy). I suppose they could have tried to disavow the document's existence, but realized they couldn't. Even so, DI fellows Steven Meyer, Bill Dembski, Jonathan Wells, and several others all claim to be doing rigorous science. Are they? No, they are what they are... liars.

[stijndeloose]

Here I don't mean you

You might not mean me, but check how often my posts have been classified as lies........

True, but that doesn't necessarily imply that you're a liar. You might just unknowingly be repeating other people's lies. Like AIG's.

[Weaver]

If you are upset that many of your posts are classified as lies, become better at properly sourcing your claims with accurate, truthful background material and links.

[Mycernius]

If you post something which is then shown to be a creationist lie and then continue to insist that it is true after being told why it is a lie, by people who are a damn sight more qualified than you on the subject, then you are a liar. If you post something from The Discovery Institute or AiG as a truth, you will be called a liar because they have been debunked. All it takes is to google the real science. The papers are there. If you are even given the papers but do not bother to even scan through them, then you are lying. It is either that or you are being lazy. There is normally a good reason why a creationist has been called a liar, because they are lying.

[stijndeloose]

If you post something which is then shown to be a creationist lie and then continue to insist that it is true after being told why it is a lie, by people who are a damn sight more qualified than you on the subject, then you are a liar. If you post something from The Discovery Institute or AiG as a truth, you will be called a liar because they have been debunked. All it takes is to google the real science. The papers are there. If you are even given the papers but do not bother to even scan through them, then you are lying. It is either that or you are being lazy. There is normally a good reason why a creationist has been called a liar, because they are lying.

I hope that's a generic "you" in your post there.

[chairman bill]

If you post something which is then shown to be a creationist lie and then continue to insist that it is true after being told why it is a lie, by people who are a damn sight more qualified than you on the subject, then you are a liar. If you post something from The Discovery Institute or AiG as a truth, you will be called a liar because they have been debunked. All it takes is to google the real science. The papers are there. If you are even given the papers but do not bother to even scan through them, then you are lying. It is either that or you are being lazy. There is normally a good reason why a creationist has been called a liar, because they are lying.

To be clear, you can say that a poster is lying, but not that they're a liar. I got these mixed up a while back & a week's suspension for my troubles.