AGW impact of air travel

Keep It Real · #1 by **Keep It Real** » Feb 02, 2019 11:51 am

I've had it in my mind for 15 years at least that air travel is bogeyman number 1 as far as AGW goes, ever since an environmental economics module at uni. What's the scientific understanding today? I suppose my personal main gripe with air travel in particular is that it's overwhelmingly completely unnecessary. Commercial passenger flights have been around for 5 minutes, in terms of the time humans have been on the planet, yet many now seem to use them as if their happiness depends on them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_aviation

This does not strike me as being a well put together page, unfortunately. EG:

The level and effects of CO2 emissions are currently believed to be broadly the same regardless of altitude (i.e., they have the same atmospheric effects as ground-based emissions).

But then further down the page:

For perspective, per passenger a typical economy-class New York to Los Angeles round trip produces about 715 kg (1574 lb) of CO2 (but is equivalent to 1,917 kg (4,230 lb) of CO2 when the high altitude "climatic forcing" effect is taken into account)

Keep It Real · #2 by **Keep It Real** » Feb 02, 2019 12:09 pm

In attempting to aggregate and quantify the total climate impact of aircraft emissions the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) has estimated that aviation's total climate impact is some two to four times that of its direct CO2 emissions alone

felltoearth · #3 by **felltoearth** » Feb 02, 2019 5:05 pm

Air Travel within continental Europe is unnecessary for the most part however not in North America where the next major city can be up to 8hrs away by train. Toronto to Montreal is about 6-7hrs by train plus getting to and from the station and the recommended time for showing up is about one hour ahead of time. This can add up to 10-11hrs of travel total compared to flying which can be a bitting as 3-4 hours (actual flight time about one hour.) Regional flying in North America is lower cost v. rail because it can piggy back off existing infrastructure. It's cheaper to buy carbon offsets.

Your attitude is very Eurocentric.

Keep It Real · #4 by **Keep It Real** » Feb 02, 2019 5:09 pm

No it isn't. Why do the majority of passengers fly? Socialising and fun. Unnecessary. As if we in the West aren't bathed up to the gills in luxury already, they take more. Do we drink from puddles? Et fucking c.

felltoearth · #5 by **felltoearth** » Feb 02, 2019 5:14 pm

Keep It Real wrote:No it isn't. Why do the majority of passengers fly? Socialising and fun. Unnecessary. As if we in the West aren't bathed up to the gills in luxury already, they take more. Do we drink from puddles? Et fucking c.

I do it to get where I need to go. I don't need your fucking judgement because you live within hours of most european cities. There are ways of dealing with this that doesn't involve not going anywhere by airplane. You need to update your attitude and knowledge.

Keep It Real · #6 by **Keep It Real** » Feb 02, 2019 5:16 pm

Where you NEED to go is it fellto? Oh, I take it all back then.

felltoearth · #7 by **felltoearth** » Feb 02, 2019 5:40 pm

Keep It Real wrote:Where you NEED to go is it fellto? Oh, I take it all back then.

Business for one. Relatives in other cities for another. If you got your head out of your eurocentric views, you might begin to understand that not everyone lives an hour or two away by rail in North America. Many people spend three to four hours a day just to get to and from work.

tuco · #8 by **tuco** » Feb 02, 2019 6:04 pm

There is no question so a cool story time. Lots of things people do they do not NEED to.

Some time ago before smoking was banned from enclosed public spaces I was reading an article by someone who lived here by abd had a job at Uni in the UK. This someone was bitching like mad, how inconsiderate smokers at the airport cafes are, smoking under his nose, potentially damaging his health and well stinking. So I wrote him if he does not mind flying around every other week, consuming finite resource, producing CO and shit. To my amazement, he did not think it was comparable because he needs to fly, right? No, dont fly, I dont care you have a job that makes you fly. Find another, local, then bitch about other people being selfish.

SafeAsMilk · #9 by **SafeAsMilk** » Feb 02, 2019 6:32 pm

Cool story indeed. We don't need more than enough water and food to survive, and somewhere to hide when the weather's particularly bad.

KIR apparently needs airline travel to be the #1 bogeyman of AGW, and needs airline travel to not be important enough for its environmental cost, in whatever arbitrary way he's measuring that. Until he provides some sort of concrete evidence to support either of these contentions, I don't see there being much else to say about them.

Keep It Real · **#10** by **Keep It Real** » Feb 02, 2019 6:48 pm

The vast majority of airtravel strikes me thus, correct. Perhaps it's partly the "charismatic mega fauna" nature of jet liners, as well as the superfluousness which shapes them that way in my outlook. And the head of my uni economics department saying the're dreadful, and his describing me as being head and shoulders above the rest and giving me a 1st, and probably more reasons still.

felltoearth · **#11** by **felltoearth** » Feb 02, 2019 6:49 pm

tuco wrote:There is no question so a cool story time. Lots of things people do they do not NEED to.

Some time ago before smoking was banned from enclosed public spaces I was reading an article by someone who lived here by abd had a job at Uni in the UK. This someone was bitching like mad, how inconsiderate smokers at the airport cafes are, smoking under his nose, potentially damaging his health and well stinking. So I wrote him if he does not mind flying around every other week, consuming finite resource, producing CO and shit. To my amazement, he did not think it was comparable because he needs to fly, right? No, dont fly, I dont care you have a job that makes you fly. Find another, local, then bitch about other people being selfish.

Cool story, indeed. You run a business in North America and try not to travel.

felltoearth · **#12** by **felltoearth** » Feb 02, 2019 6:50 pm

Keep It Real wrote:The vast majority of airtravel strikes me thus, correct. Perhaps it's partly the "charismatic mega fauna" nature of jet liners, as well as the superfluousness which shapes them that way in my outlook.

What the fuck are you talking about. That post doesn't even make sense.

Keep It Real · **#13** by **Keep It Real** » Feb 02, 2019 6:51 pm

They look and act like enormous cool birds. Where's your imagination bra?

ETA: Dawkins even uses the 747 as an analogy in TGD when describing the unlikeliness of one being assembled by chance in a whirlwind, in support of my conjecture.

tuco · **#14** by **tuco** » Feb 02, 2019 7:01 pm

One of the best activities connected to air travel is to me whale watching. Flying across the world because I am whale friendly. Yeah.

tuco · **#15** by **tuco** » Feb 02, 2019 7:03 pm

felltoearth wrote:
tuco wrote:There is no question so a cool story time. Lots of things people do they do not NEED to.

Some time ago before smoking was banned from enclosed public spaces I was reading an article by someone who lived here by abd had a job at Uni in the UK. This someone was bitching like mad, how inconsiderate smokers at the airport cafes are, smoking under his nose, potentially damaging his health and well stinking. So I wrote him if he does not mind flying around every other week, consuming finite resource, producing CO and shit. To my amazement, he did not think it was comparable because he needs to fly, right? No, dont fly, I dont care you have a job that makes you fly. Find another, local, then bitch about other people being selfish.

Cool story, indeed. You run a business in North America and try not to travel.

I do not want to run business and do not want to travel. And frankly, I don't care about your reasons, I care about your footprint, respectively how your behavior influences my life.

Keep It Real · **#16** by **Keep It Real** » Feb 02, 2019 7:04 pm

tuco wrote:One of the best activities connected to air travel is to me whale watching. Flying across the world because I am whale friendly. Yeah.

I would also not begrudge Sir David Attenborough any of his work related air miles for similar reasons. Especially given:

“Right now, we are facing a man-made disaster of global scale. Our greatest threat in thousands of years. Climate change. If we don’t take action, the collapse of our civilisations and the extinction of much of the natural world is on the horizon.”
– Sir David Attenborough December 2018

Keep It Real · **#17** by **Keep It Real** » Feb 02, 2019 7:14 pm

I've probably spent more time enjoying the work of Iain Banks RIP on balance, and did actually meet the man. He pinned a medal on my chest with a word and a gesture when he rated the question I asked him.

Iain Banks Wiki wrote:In February 2007, Banks sold his extensive car collection, including a 3.2-litre Porsche Boxster, a Porsche 911 Turbo, a 3.8-litre Jaguar Mark II, a 5-litre BMW M5 and a daily use diesel Land Rover Defender whose power he had boosted by about 50%. Banks exchanged all of the vehicles for a Lexus RX 400h hybrid – later replaced by a diesel Toyota Yaris – and said in the future he would fly only in emergencies.

tuco · **#18** by **tuco** » Feb 02, 2019 7:48 pm

The way I think about it is that let the rich and, well from our point of view, the rich fly whale watching, have their cars and bikes, dunno how many bedroom houses and whatnot, because what can you do? Can't stop them, we all have freedoms and shit. But make them pay for it, not only market price but an environmental one, and hopefully, they will STFU when it comes to (their) wealth redistribution.

felltoearth · **#19** by **felltoearth** » Feb 02, 2019 8:01 pm

tuco wrote:
felltoearth wrote:
tuco wrote:There is no question so a cool story time. Lots of things people do they do not NEED to.

Some time ago before smoking was banned from enclosed public spaces I was reading an article by someone who lived here by abd had a job at Uni in the UK. This someone was bitching like mad, how inconsiderate smokers at the airport cafes are, smoking under his nose, potentially damaging his health and well stinking. So I wrote him if he does not mind flying around every other week, consuming finite resource, producing CO and shit. To my amazement, he did not think it was comparable because he needs to fly, right? No, dont fly, I dont care you have a job that makes you fly. Find another, local, then bitch about other people being selfish.

Cool story, indeed. You run a business in North America and try not to travel.

I do not want to run business and do not want to travel. And frankly, I don't care about your reasons, I care about your footprint, respectively how your behavior influences my life.

Cool story.

tuco · **#20** by **tuco** » Feb 02, 2019 8:18 pm

We all have our reasons. Perhaps it sounds offensive that I do not care but why should I? I dunno how to measure them.

AGW impact of air travel

AGW impact of air travel

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