Do we live in a de facto post scarcity economy in Europe?

You can probably guess what I think...

Explore the business, economy, finance and trade aspects of human society.

Moderators: Calilasseia, ADParker

Re: Do we live in a de facto post scarcity economy in Europe?

#201  Postby Thommo » Sep 29, 2018 4:04 pm

Keep It Real wrote:
Thommo wrote:Yes, lots of people travel to work in countries where they get paid more. In fact, without these people the NHS would not have enough doctors, as large numbers of recruits already come for exactly this reason.

The problems surrounding our failure to train enough doctors are clearly more likely to be fixed outside of a global free market.


Why do you say that, given it's never happened?

You seemed quite exercised that I provide examples of the failures of central planning, does that not apply to this claim too?

Keep It Real wrote:
Thommo wrote:Huge numbers of people move for work every year, including to other countries. Just look at British immigration and emigration figures - it's hundreds of thousands a year.

A smallish proportion of the population then. Jobs are hard to come by - so much so that people often feel they have to leave their home country because being unemployed is not financially feasible (let alone free from stigma). Rise of the machines. Luxury communism is often termed fully automated luxury communism to make that point I feel, although FULL automation should/will probably never happen.


That doesn't seem at all related to the point you're replying to. People, including doctors, can and will be incentivised to move in large numbers if the difference is on the magnitude you proposed. This demonstrably already happens.

Keep It Real wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:
Thommo wrote:At present, in reality, Britain isn't producing enough doctors even with the current incentive structure.

Cuba doesn't have that problem.


It does.

https://www.statnews.com/2017/02/08/cub ... eager-pay/


No it doesn't - they produce more than enough good doctors - the trouble is they're drastically under paid due to Cuba's premature communist system.


This is making less and less sense. We were discussing drastically "under paying" doctors in exactly the same way as Cuba as per your express wish that we do so. In fact doctors in Cuba work abroad (as far as they can) to earn more money as a consequence.

Keep It Real wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:Apart from communist countries which existed for large parts of the 20th century, where it was tried.

They were too big, too poor and not tech/infrastructure advanced enough. Apples and oranges.


It isn't. It was tried, and it did fail. You may make excuses for that failure, but it still happened. And it was still contrasted with capitalist societies for which no excuses are required.

Keep It Real wrote:
Thommo wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:
Thommo wrote:For the record, a typical doctor is not paid a six figure salary in the UK.

Yeh, I know, and if they were paid 1.5 times as much as a bin man they'd be on 47kpa.


I don't think binmen make that much actually.

Read the thread please. 32kpa is the mean income and it has been suggested that bin men should earn around that amount.


That's the mean income of neither doctors nor bin men, so I've no idea what you're talking about. I provided you with a link to the actual typical income of a binman. It's not 32k.

Keep It Real wrote:
Thommo wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:
Thommo wrote:There's also the secondary problem of what happens to economies that do not even strive to allocate resources efficiently, in accordance with the value they present to society.

They wouldn't be full of chuggers, PPI and doubleglazing cold callers etc ad infinitum. Newsflash - many desires are not rational or advisable. Market failures 101.


Be that as it may, central planning has failed far worse, far more often, wherever it has been applied.


Central planning is in effect already in the UK in many ways, and needn't be in a dirty way if lux com phased in. Also, apples and oranges. I mean they didn't even have the internet.


No, the UK does not have a centrally planned economy, this is total poppycock.
User avatar
Thommo
 
Posts: 25995

Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Do we live in a de facto post scarcity economy in Europe?

#202  Postby Keep It Real » Sep 29, 2018 6:11 pm

I find it insulting you refuse to read the thread to see where the 32kpa binmen came from and will not do you the courtesy of refuting your "points" in kind.
Arthur : All my life I've had this strange feeling that there's something big and sinister going on in the world. Slartibartfast : No, that's perfectly normal paranoia.

Sometimes "A hero is someone who's too frightened to be a coward" - Cracker
User avatar
Keep It Real
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 8550
Age: 38
Male

England (eng)
Print view this post

Re: Do we live in a de facto post scarcity economy in Europe?

#203  Postby Keep It Real » Oct 02, 2018 6:00 pm

What are people's personal definitions of post scarcity?

Not to have to worry about food, heating and shelter?
The above + internet, mobile phone, 1 foreign holiday a year, eating out once a week?
The above + 1 gold plated automobile?
The above + 1000 gold plated Ferraris?

We're so there, IMO.
Arthur : All my life I've had this strange feeling that there's something big and sinister going on in the world. Slartibartfast : No, that's perfectly normal paranoia.

Sometimes "A hero is someone who's too frightened to be a coward" - Cracker
User avatar
Keep It Real
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 8550
Age: 38
Male

England (eng)
Print view this post

Re: Do we live in a de facto post scarcity economy in Europe?

#204  Postby surreptitious57 » Oct 02, 2018 7:18 pm

Absolute minimum : electricity / water / oxygen / shelter / food / clothes / shoes / will to live
Reasonable additions : phone / computer / radio / television / car / books / friends / soulmate
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
surreptitious57
 
Posts: 10074

Print view this post

Re: Do we live in a de facto post scarcity economy in Europe?

#205  Postby jamest » Oct 02, 2018 10:57 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:[b]Absolute minimum : electricity / water / oxygen / shelter / food / clothes / shoes / will to live

Please don't abuse the word 'absolute' willy nilly. I'll grant you that 'people' need water/oxygen/food to survive, but nothing else absolutely on that list. Even the "will to live" can be diluted to a will not to suffer, which is not necessarily a will to live. There are a multitude of people alive all over the planet whose primary goal is to avert suffering. If The Buddha had been born within the last century, he'd have become a billionaire within a decade.
Il messaggero non e importante.
Ora non e importante.
Il resultato futuro e importante.
Quindi, persisto.
jamest
 
Posts: 17778
Male

Country: England
Jolly Roger (arr)
Print view this post

Re: Do we live in a de facto post scarcity economy in Europe?

#206  Postby Keep It Real » Oct 03, 2018 9:45 am

Sur's not the only one to do it. Take the gov's definition on absolute poverty (this is extremely on topic IMO).

Currently, when the government talks about poverty, they either use a measure of relative poverty - that is, how someone is doing financially compared with the rest of the country - or absolute poverty....To establish whether someone is living in relative poverty, the government looks at the median income - that is the midpoint where half of the working population earn more than that amount and half earn less. Then they take 60% of this middle amount and anyone who earns less than this is considered to be living in relative poverty.....When government talks about absolute poverty, they do the same calculation but using the median income in 2010-11 to give a constant measure over time.
Arthur : All my life I've had this strange feeling that there's something big and sinister going on in the world. Slartibartfast : No, that's perfectly normal paranoia.

Sometimes "A hero is someone who's too frightened to be a coward" - Cracker
User avatar
Keep It Real
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 8550
Age: 38
Male

England (eng)
Print view this post

Re: Do we live in a de facto post scarcity economy in Europe?

#207  Postby Keep It Real » Oct 03, 2018 9:56 am

Arthur : All my life I've had this strange feeling that there's something big and sinister going on in the world. Slartibartfast : No, that's perfectly normal paranoia.

Sometimes "A hero is someone who's too frightened to be a coward" - Cracker
User avatar
Keep It Real
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 8550
Age: 38
Male

England (eng)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Do we live in a de facto post scarcity economy in Europe?

#208  Postby Keep It Real » Oct 09, 2018 2:39 pm

Keep It Real wrote:I can't quite believe I changed back to this old avatar a few days ago lolz


Just met with my crown court liaison and we discussed the circumstances and details of what happened/is happening. She said she knows both the judges and would be "EXTREMELY surprised" and "no way, not on my watch" at my concerns I might go to prison. I'm so fucking relieved - not that I'm counting my chickens just yet but I estimate a dozen, at least :) :) :)

Back on topic - wealth psychotherapists. Many people don't actually like being mega ultra rich these days!

“I shifted toward it naturally,” he said of his becoming an expert in wealth therapy. “We are trained to have empathy, no judgment and so many of the uber wealthy – the 1% of the 1% – they feel that their problems are really not problems. But they are. A lot of therapists do not give enough weight to their issues.”

And as they stroll through Manhattan, what issues are America’s 1% struggling with? There is guilt over being rich in the first place, he said. There is the feeling that they have to hide the fact that they are rich. And then there is the isolation – being in the 1%, it turns out, can be lonely. It seems F Scott Fitzgerald was right, the very rich “are different from you and me”.


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/oct/17/wealth-therapy-tackles-woes-of-the-rich-its-really-isolating-to-have-lots-of-money
Arthur : All my life I've had this strange feeling that there's something big and sinister going on in the world. Slartibartfast : No, that's perfectly normal paranoia.

Sometimes "A hero is someone who's too frightened to be a coward" - Cracker
User avatar
Keep It Real
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 8550
Age: 38
Male

England (eng)
Print view this post

Re: Do we live in a de facto post scarcity economy in Europe?

#209  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » Feb 07, 2019 12:25 pm

Wrong thread. Ignore me.
User avatar
Rachel Bronwyn
 
Name: a certain type of girl
Posts: 12899
Age: 31
Female

Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Do we live in a de facto post scarcity economy in Europe?

#210  Postby Keep It Real » Jun 15, 2019 4:29 pm

This thread is NOT wrong!!!!! ;)
Arthur : All my life I've had this strange feeling that there's something big and sinister going on in the world. Slartibartfast : No, that's perfectly normal paranoia.

Sometimes "A hero is someone who's too frightened to be a coward" - Cracker
User avatar
Keep It Real
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 8550
Age: 38
Male

England (eng)
Print view this post

Re: Do we live in a de facto post scarcity economy in Europe?

#211  Postby laklak » Jun 16, 2019 2:26 am

I got them old Hierarchy of Needs Blues again, Mama.

One man's minimum is another man's surfeit.
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way. - Mark Twain
The sky is falling! The sky is falling! - Chicken Little
I never go without my dinner. No one ever does, except vegetarians and people like that - Oscar Wilde
User avatar
laklak
RS Donator
 
Name: Florida Man
Posts: 19577
Age: 65
Male

Country: The Great Satan
Swaziland (sz)
Print view this post

Re: Do we live in a de facto post scarcity economy in Europe?

#212  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 16, 2019 11:14 am

laklak wrote:I got them old Hierarchy of Needs Blues again, Mama.


I'm starting to think we live in a de scherzo, post fappity economy, pretty much fucking everywhere.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
User avatar
Cito di Pense
 
Name: Amir Bagatelle
Posts: 28419
Age: 22
Male

Country: The Heartland
Mongolia (mn)
Print view this post

Re: Do we live in a de facto post scarcity economy in Europe?

#213  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 16, 2019 1:20 pm

Keep It Real wrote:Everybody I know has got enough money to piss it away on booze/fags/drugs/flash cars/foreign holidays etc ad infinitum. Thoughts?


Thoughts: sampling bias.

A statistically negligible quantity of people presumably taken from a particular area, comprised of a particular socioeconomic group of a particular nation.

I'd say straight away that the rise in usage of food-banks in the UK should be enough to make this idea a non-starter, but even ignoring that, most definitions of post-scarcity are defined as resources being so cheap and the production of goods so inexpensive with minimal human labour input that the cost to own the finished products is negligible meaning everyone can own them.

I don't think the concept of post-scarcity has ever been defined by the consumption of luxuries, no matter how widespread, because there has always been a group in every human society that has access to luxuries.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 24123
Age: 43
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: Do we live in a de facto post scarcity economy in Europe?

#214  Postby Keep It Real » Jun 16, 2019 1:24 pm

People's readiness to take free food given the opportunity (eg - food banks) has been discussed at great length in the thread already. Read the whole thread before contributing valueless diluting thoughts off the top of your head. There's a good fellow.
Arthur : All my life I've had this strange feeling that there's something big and sinister going on in the world. Slartibartfast : No, that's perfectly normal paranoia.

Sometimes "A hero is someone who's too frightened to be a coward" - Cracker
User avatar
Keep It Real
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 8550
Age: 38
Male

England (eng)
Print view this post

Re: Do we live in a de facto post scarcity economy in Europe?

#215  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 16, 2019 1:37 pm

Keep It Real wrote: Read the whole thread before contributing valueless diluting thoughts off the top of your head.


I was responding to the OP, so I'm afraid the value of the content of my post may well necessarily be a reflection of that.

You realize that's how threads work, right? You post a question, people then respond to that question. There's no obligation to read through 10 pages of responses to answer that question?

Incidentally, I did then go onto read the rest of the thread, and it seems like the minor establishing counterpoint I made about food banks actually was brought up by several sensible people, and then fapped at gormlessly for a while, before it was basically ignored thereafter.

Any time you want to respond to the other points, do feel free.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 24123
Age: 43
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Previous

Return to Economics

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest