First Libor now ISDAfix?

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First Libor now ISDAfix?

#1  Postby Sovereign » Apr 26, 2013 1:37 pm

Conspiracy theorists of the world, believers in the hidden hands of the Rothschilds and the Masons and the Illuminati, we skeptics owe you an apology. You were right. The players may be a little different, but your basic premise is correct: The world is a rigged game. We found this out in recent months, when a series of related corruption stories spilled out of the financial sector, suggesting the world's largest banks may be fixing the prices of, well, just about everything.

You may have heard of the Libor scandal, in which at least three – and perhaps as many as 16 – of the name-brand too-big-to-fail banks have been manipulating global interest rates, in the process messing around with the prices of upward of $500 trillion (that's trillion, with a "t") worth of financial instruments. When that sprawling con burst into public view last year, it was easily the biggest financial scandal in history – MIT professor Andrew Lo even said it "dwarfs by orders of magnitude any financial scam in the history of markets."

That was bad enough, but now Libor may have a twin brother. Word has leaked out that the London-based firm ICAP, the world's largest broker of interest-rate swaps, is being investigated by American authorities for behavior that sounds eerily reminiscent of the Libor mess. Regulators are looking into whether or not a small group of brokers at ICAP may have worked with up to 15 of the world's largest banks to manipulate ISDAfix, a benchmark number used around the world to calculate the prices of interest-rate swaps.

Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/ne ... z2RZmacDAI
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Re: First Libor now ISDAfix?

#2  Postby chairman bill » Apr 26, 2013 2:08 pm

Dontcha just love capitalism?
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Re: First Libor now ISDAfix?

#3  Postby Loren Michael » Apr 27, 2013 4:58 am

We "found this out in recent months"?

I guess this is a sign that I shouldn't go to Rolling Stone for breaking news.
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Re: First Libor now ISDAfix?

#4  Postby Loren Michael » Apr 27, 2013 4:59 am

And yes, capitalism is fucking awesome. Bee's knees wearing cat's pajamas.
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Re: First Libor now ISDAfix?

#5  Postby Calilasseia » May 01, 2013 12:54 pm

Yes, capitalism is fucking awesome. It means that if you're too big to fail, you're also too big to jail, even when you launder money for murderous drug gangs and international terrorists.

In short, become one of the mega-pigs with your snout in the trough, and you can get away with anything. Which means that the banks have now become a threat to the very integrity of civil society itself.
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Re: First Libor now ISDAfix?

#6  Postby FACT-MAN-2 » May 01, 2013 2:20 pm

Loren Michael wrote:We "found this out in recent months"?

I guess this is a sign that I shouldn't go to Rolling Stone for breaking news.

As a monthly publication, Rolling Stone is not generally considered to be the source of "breaking news," in case you hadn't noticed. There are news sites that serve that purpose. If you want breaking news, check them out.

But if you want in-depth investigative reporting stop by Rolling Stone.

Now, is this the extent of your reaction to the piece? You have no further comment? No apologetics to offer? No explaining away? No rationalizations? No hubris or pithy explanations?

You must be slipping.
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Re: First Libor now ISDAfix?

#7  Postby Loren Michael » May 01, 2013 2:43 pm

FACT-MAN-2 wrote:Now, is this the extent of your reaction to the piece? You have no further comment? No apologetics to offer? No explaining away? No rationalizations? No hubris or pithy explanations?

You must be slipping.


Given that how awful the status quo is and how the interests at the top protect themselves and how big a problem that is is a recurring theme that I touch on, I have to wonder if you're perhaps mistaking me for another poster or have perhaps taken leave of your senses?

I hope you're not mistaking frequent disagreement as being a sign of particularly large political differences.
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Re: First Libor now ISDAfix?

#8  Postby Loren Michael » May 01, 2013 2:52 pm

Calilasseia wrote:Yes, capitalism is fucking awesome.


Yes!

It means that if you're too big to fail, you're also too big to jail, even when you launder money for murderous drug gangs and international terrorists.

In short, become one of the mega-pigs with your snout in the trough, and you can get away with anything. Which means that the banks have now become a threat to the very integrity of civil society itself.


Nah. Support for a capitalist system doesn't imply support for the political and economic status quo.
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Re: First Libor now ISDAfix?

#9  Postby FACT-MAN-2 » May 02, 2013 6:00 am

Loren Michael wrote:
FACT-MAN-2 wrote:Now, is this the extent of your reaction to the piece? You have no further comment? No apologetics to offer? No explaining away? No rationalizations? No hubris or pithy explanations?

You must be slipping.


Given that how awful the status quo is and how the interests at the top protect themselves and how big a problem that is is a recurring theme that I touch on, I have to wonder if you're perhaps mistaking me for another poster or have perhaps taken leave of your senses?

I hope you're not mistaking frequent disagreement as being a sign of particularly large political differences.

You "touch on" things ever so gently and apologetically, in what few moments you're not cheering the system as the best that ever was. Hell, you won't even entertain or even countenance a conversation about changing it up, that's how hooked on it you are. I expect you'd give your life in its defense.

Me? I'd not piss on it if it were ablaze and I'd sure as hell not call the fire department.
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Re: First Libor now ISDAfix?

#10  Postby Loren Michael » May 02, 2013 7:43 am

FACT-MAN-2 wrote:
Loren Michael wrote:
FACT-MAN-2 wrote:Now, is this the extent of your reaction to the piece? You have no further comment? No apologetics to offer? No explaining away? No rationalizations? No hubris or pithy explanations?

You must be slipping.


Given that how awful the status quo is and how the interests at the top protect themselves and how big a problem that is is a recurring theme that I touch on, I have to wonder if you're perhaps mistaking me for another poster or have perhaps taken leave of your senses?

I hope you're not mistaking frequent disagreement as being a sign of particularly large political differences.


You "touch on" things ever so gently and apologetically, in what few moments you're not cheering the system as the best that ever was.


I gently touched on the the Senate by apologetically calling it the thing that enables and sustains almost all other political problems.

I think you're mistaking our disagreements for large political differences. I share your assessment for what is wrong a good deal of the time. I believe you're poor at approaching many issues in even a farce of a reasonable and/or well-thought-out way though. This is why, save for a handful of genuine difference issues, most of our disagreements are over process.

If you want to keep asserting strawmen of my statements and positions, I suppose this could be a new subject for disagreement. It doesn't seem particularly on-topic though.
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Re: First Libor now ISDAfix?

#11  Postby Macdoc » May 02, 2013 7:46 am

The usual nonsense from the anti-capitalism crowd that can't separate baby and bath water. Get's tiresome.

If the guy in the commune next door scampered off with the marijuana plants would you diss communes?

If the administrator of the pension funds skims the money - would you diss pension plans?

If the school principal raids the kids lockers for pocket change do you diss schools?

It's a stupid stance to conflate the criminal and unethical aspects of ANY system with the system itself. :crazy:
People make decisions to act unethically or criminally.
Society/gov can make that easier or more difficult by way of oversight and regulation.

The failure here is not an ism but of oversight and regulation which was severely dismantled by the likes of Bush, Thatcher and all the self regulating market ditzes giving the predators a free hand to steal unchecked.

Until the knee jerk anti-capitalists get that message no rational dialogue is possible. :nono:

•••

one wonders if FMs pension plan comes by way of snouts in the trough since he worked in the military industrial complex. :ask:
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Re: First Libor now ISDAfix?

#12  Postby FACT-MAN-2 » May 02, 2013 8:50 pm

Calilasseia wrote:Yes, capitalism is fucking awesome. It means that if you're too big to fail, you're also too big to jail, even when you launder money for murderous drug gangs and international terrorists.

In short, become one of the mega-pigs with your snout in the trough, and you can get away with anything. Which means that the banks have now become a threat to the very integrity of civil society itself.

And yet some here continue with their unabashed support for it and continue to champion it at every turn, while ridiculing those who are critical of it.

I expect they don't take you on because they know they couldn't compete, and the truth is they couldn't. They can't compete with any of the systems's critics except by resorting to ridicule, which is rather juvenile.

They blame the human element and insist the system's just fine as it is, apparently never realizing that the system is as much those who operate it as it is its rules and principles and goals, it's very arhitecture. No decent system would be as easily manipulated or corrupted or cause such widespread damage to the world's biosphere and its people.

Any system that threatens the integrity of civil society is an enemy of that society, how can there be any question about this?

There is an enormous failure of imagination and creativity among those who can't see past Capitalism and realize that we could do so much better. This extends to include a refusal to even consider or countenance a discussion that goes in that direction, which they've consistently shut down by yelling ridicule at those who might wish to have such a conversation. Talk about closed mindedness! An unwillingness to allow others their right of free speech to converse on a topic of their own choosing, which smacks of fascism, oppression, and narrow mindedness.

how they look at themselves in the mirror is beyond me. I guess having no shame helps.
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Re: First Libor now ISDAfix?

#13  Postby Loren Michael » May 02, 2013 10:02 pm

FACT-MAN-2 wrote:No decent system would be as easily manipulated or corrupted


No system fully accounts for the human element because the human element isn't fully understood.

This means that all systems either decay or reform to adjust to those changing elements because of manipulation and corruption.

I understand that there's a fantasy system out there that you're thinking of, but it's just that, a fantasy. If you want to change it, you have to acknowledge that there's a system now that needs to be dealt with somehow. You're not doing that.
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Re: First Libor now ISDAfix?

#14  Postby FACT-MAN-2 » May 03, 2013 2:54 am

Loren Michael wrote:
FACT-MAN-2 wrote:No decent system would be as easily manipulated or corrupted


No system fully accounts for the human element because the human element isn't fully understood.

This means that all systems either decay or reform to adjust to those changing elements because of manipulation and corruption.

I understand that there's a fantasy system out there that you're thinking of, but it's just that, a fantasy. If you want to change it, you have to acknowledge that there's a system now that needs to be dealt with somehow. You're not doing that.

No, I'm not, because I know a dead horse when I see one. You apparently do not and are too easily satisfied.

If no one ever imagined a better future, we'd probably not ever achieve one. But if they do, we'll stand a chance. Why are you so against this?
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Re: First Libor now ISDAfix?

#15  Postby Loren Michael » May 03, 2013 4:57 am

FACT-MAN-2 wrote:
Loren Michael wrote:
FACT-MAN-2 wrote:No decent system would be as easily manipulated or corrupted


No system fully accounts for the human element because the human element isn't fully understood.

This means that all systems either decay or reform to adjust to those changing elements because of manipulation and corruption.

I understand that there's a fantasy system out there that you're thinking of, but it's just that, a fantasy. If you want to change it, you have to acknowledge that there's a system now that needs to be dealt with somehow. You're not doing that.


No, I'm not


I know. Given the relevance of that system to so many visions of a better world, including your own, that's a huge problem for you. You're ignoring the height of the mountain you have to climb. I'm just noting that you're going to die on that mountain if you ever tire of telling everyone how great the other side is that you have never seen, and once you're done telling everyone how little the naysayers know about the mountain's height and other side.

If no one ever imagined a better future, we'd probably not ever achieve one. But if they do, we'll stand a chance. Why are you so against this?


This is again you confusing disagreement for political difference. I'm against "solutions" that don't grapple with political and economic realities. This is why I spend my time on things like the aforementioned Senate thread, saying things like that if people want to get things done, they need to account for that.

People who agitate for a better future without acknowledging the heavy lifting are less than useless to their own goal.
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Re: First Libor now ISDAfix?

#16  Postby FACT-MAN-2 » May 04, 2013 2:11 am

Loren Michael wrote:
FACT-MAN-2 wrote:
No decent system would be as easily manipulated or corrupted

No system fully accounts for the human element because the human element isn't fully understood.

This means that all systems either decay or reform to adjust to those changing elements because of manipulation and corruption.

So I take it that given this, if we devise a system for transporiing humans to, oh, say, one of Jupiter's moons, we should not implement it and yranmsport people there because it will "decay" before we ever get there? Or before they get back? (remember, we're talking years here).

Let's just say you are no visionary. You're probably suited to being an accountant , which is not a crime but it won't get anyone to Mars or anywhere else out there.

Now, my experience includes several years on Apollo, a decade more or less, up to my neck in getting our people to the moon and safely home. We built systems, including human systems, that worked and did not "decay" or become corrupted and were so strong nobody even thought about manipulating them.

That's not an experience you've ever had, so building human systems that work is unfamiliar to you, you're stuck on all the old obsolete models, living in the past so to speak. You haven't the foggiest notion or the faintest clue about how to build human systems that work as intended, but I do ... you see, I had the experience, I've been there and done that. You wouldn't know where to begin, couldn't even imagine where to begin I don't expect.

You're just rattling, like an old worn out car. You have no idea.

Loren Michael wrote:
fact-man-2 wrote:
Loren Michael wrote:
I understand that there's a fantasy system out there that you're thinking of, but it's just that, a fantasy. If you want to change it, you have to acknowledge that there's a system now that needs to be dealt with somehow. You're not doing that.

No, I'm not

I know. Given the relevance of that system to so many visions of a better world, including your own, that's a huge problem for you. You're ignoring the height of the mountain you have to climb. I'm just noting that you're going to die on that mountain if you ever tire of telling everyone how great the other side is that you have never seen, and once you're done telling everyone how little the naysayers know about the mountain's height and other side.

Most of what we know was "never seen" before some imaginitive and very creative character built it or showed it to us in one way or another, dude.

Besides, it isn't me who has to climb the mountain, it's everyone, and leaders will arise to lead them up it, as history has shown time and again.

Loren Michael wrote:
If no one ever imagined a better future, we'd probably not ever achieve one. But if they do, we'll stand a chance. Why are you so against this?

This is again you confusing disagreement for political difference.

You didn't answert he question, why are you so against this? Speak to it, dude, man up.

Loren Michael wrote:[
I'm against "solutions" that don't grapple with political and economic realities.

You've never examined my solution so you cannot know this, thinking you do is just blind arrogance, with a heaping shovel full of condescension and bullshit.

I'd agree that examining my sysem takes some effort and a few brain cells and even some courage. You seem to be lacking in these qualities because you've consistently refused to do a close examination. Maybe it's fear, I dunno.

Loren Michael wrote:
This is why I spend my time on things like the aforementioned Senate thread, saying things like that if people want to get things done, they need to account for that.

You described the problem but you never said how it might be repaired or even if its reparable. A solution has to be specified, dude, you never specified. You just kept describing the problem.

Loren Michael wrote:
People who agitate for a better future without acknowledging the heavy lifting are less than useless to their own goal.

I've acknowledged the heavy lifting a thousand times, are you kidding? :scratch:

Ive also said it's not an impossible task.

I've also said it's a lot like a pot of water placed over heat on a stove, which because we know the facts about thermodynamics, we can predict will come to a boil, and whatta ya know, we do it every time. My science does that, it predicts the next most probable state, which is the system I have tried to elaborate here on several occasions only to be rudely interrupted and ceaselessly ridiculed and really quite prevented from doing what I set out to do, a quashing you participated in with some glee, i might add.

So get it straight dude, or STFU about it. I'm not going to do this, everyone is going to do it, except those who jump from tall buildings when the market smokes, a lot of those gamblers no doubt. I am predicting the next most probable state. Try to get that through your head.

The water boils. We can predict this. Boiling is the next most probable state after applying heat.

And your assertion that we don't fully understand humans and therefore can't build human systems that won't decay or become corrupted ... is bogus. We don't know eveything about human nature, but we know enough to do what we have to do and if you think not then move over and get out of the way of those who do, you're holding up the show.

In terms of stress and difficulty, nothing in politics, governance, or economics or any combination of the three holds a candle to what the crew of Apollo 13 experienced. Nothing! And they did not fail. They did not come unglued. They did not leap from a window in their tall building. They did the job, and nobody could have deterred them from it with an offer of a $50 billion bribe.

Get real, dude, read your own posts, but do it honestly, they're flopping like a tuna
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Re: First Libor now ISDAfix?

#17  Postby FACT-MAN-2 » May 05, 2013 4:32 am

FACT-MAN-2 wrote:
Loren Michael wrote:
FACT-MAN-2 wrote:
No decent system would be as easily manipulated or corrupted

No system fully accounts for the human element because the human element isn't fully understood.

This means that all systems either decay or reform to adjust to those changing elements because of manipulation and corruption.

So I take it that given this, if we devise a system for transporiing humans to, oh, say, one of Jupiter's moons, we should not implement it and yranmsport people there because it will "decay" before we ever get there? Or before they get back? (remember, we're talking years here).

Let's just say you are no visionary. You're probably suited to being an accountant , which is not a crime but it won't get anyone to Mars or anywhere else out there.

Now, my experience includes several years on Apollo, a decade more or less, up to my neck in getting our people to the moon and safely home. We built systems, including human systems, that worked and did not "decay" or become corrupted and were so strong nobody even thought about manipulating them.

That's not an experience you've ever had, so building human systems that work is unfamiliar to you, you're stuck on all the old obsolete models, living in the past so to speak. You haven't the foggiest notion or the faintest clue about how to build human systems that work as intended, but I do ... you see, I had the experience, I've been there and done that. You wouldn't know where to begin, couldn't even imagine where to begin I don't expect.

You're just rattling, like an old worn out car. You have no idea.

Loren Michael wrote:
fact-man-2 wrote:
Loren Michael wrote:
I understand that there's a fantasy system out there that you're thinking of, but it's just that, a fantasy. If you want to change it, you have to acknowledge that there's a system now that needs to be dealt with somehow. You're not doing that.

No, I'm not

I know. Given the relevance of that system to so many visions of a better world, including your own, that's a huge problem for you. You're ignoring the height of the mountain you have to climb. I'm just noting that you're going to die on that mountain if you ever tire of telling everyone how great the other side is that you have never seen, and once you're done telling everyone how little the naysayers know about the mountain's height and other side.

Most of what we know was "never seen" before some imaginitive and very creative character built it or showed it to us in one way or another, dude.

Besides, it isn't me who has to climb the mountain, it's everyone, and leaders will arise to lead them up it, as history has shown time and again.

Loren Michael wrote:
If no one ever imagined a better future, we'd probably not ever achieve one. But if they do, we'll stand a chance. Why are you so against this?

This is again you confusing disagreement for political difference.

You didn't answert he question, why are you so against this? Speak to it, dude, man up.

Loren Michael wrote:[
I'm against "solutions" that don't grapple with political and economic realities.

You've never examined my solution so you cannot know this, thinking you do is just blind arrogance, with a heaping shovel full of condescension and bullshit.

I'd agree that examining my sysem takes some effort and a few brain cells and even some courage. You seem to be lacking in these qualities because you've consistently refused to do a close examination. Maybe it's fear, I dunno.

Loren Michael wrote:
This is why I spend my time on things like the aforementioned Senate thread, saying things like that if people want to get things done, they need to account for that.

You described the problem but you never said how it might be repaired or even if its reparable. A solution has to be specified, dude, you never specified. You just kept describing the problem.

Loren Michael wrote:
People who agitate for a better future without acknowledging the heavy lifting are less than useless to their own goal.

I've acknowledged the heavy lifting a thousand times, are you kidding? :scratch:

Ive also said it's not an impossible task.

I've also said it's a lot like a pot of water placed over heat on a stove, which because we know the facts about thermodynamics, we can predict will come to a boil, and whatta ya know, we do it every time. My science does that, it predicts the next most probable state, which is the system I have tried to elaborate here on several occasions only to be rudely interrupted and ceaselessly ridiculed and really quite prevented from doing what I set out to do, a quashing you participated in with some glee, i might add.

So get it straight dude, or STFU about it. I'm not going to do this, everyone is going to do it, except those who jump from tall buildings when the market smokes, a lot of those gamblers no doubt. I am predicting the next most probable state. Try to get that through your head.

The water boils. We can predict this. Boiling is the next most probable state after applying heat.

And your assertion that we don't fully understand humans and therefore can't build human systems that won't decay or become corrupted ... is bogus. We don't know eveything about human nature, but we know enough to do what we have to do and if you think not then move over and get out of the way of those who do, you're holding up the show.

In terms of stress and difficulty, nothing in politics, governance, or economics or any combination of the three holds a candle to what the crew of Apollo 13 experienced. Nothing! And they did not fail. They did not come unglued. They did not leap from a window in their tall building. They did the job, and nobody could have deterred them from it with an offer of a $50 billion bribe.

Get real, dude, read your own posts, but do it honestly, they're flopping like a tuna

Just as I expected, no response.

Whenever LM finds his back has been driven to the wall and he has no answers, he runs and hides.
Capitalism is obsolete, yet we keep dancing with its corpse.

When will large scale corporate capitalism and government metamorphose to embrace modern thinking and allow us to live sustainably?
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Re: First Libor now ISDAfix?

#18  Postby Matt8819 » May 08, 2013 12:42 am


!
MODNOTE
FACT-MAN-2, this post and this post of yours contain personal attacks/insults:

[Reveal] Spoiler: your reported posts,
FACT-MAN-2 wrote:
Loren Michael wrote:
FACT-MAN-2 wrote:
No decent system would be as easily manipulated or corrupted

No system fully accounts for the human element because the human element isn't fully understood.

This means that all systems either decay or reform to adjust to those changing elements because of manipulation and corruption.

So I take it that given this, if we devise a system for transporiing humans to, oh, say, one of Jupiter's moons, we should not implement it and yranmsport people there because it will "decay" before we ever get there? Or before they get back? (remember, we're talking years here).

Let's just say you are no visionary. You're probably suited to being an accountant , which is not a crime but it won't get anyone to Mars or anywhere else out there.

Now, my experience includes several years on Apollo, a decade more or less, up to my neck in getting our people to the moon and safely home. We built systems, including human systems, that worked and did not "decay" or become corrupted and were so strong nobody even thought about manipulating them.

That's not an experience you've ever had, so building human systems that work is unfamiliar to you, you're stuck on all the old obsolete models, living in the past so to speak. You haven't the foggiest notion or the faintest clue about how to build human systems that work as intended, but I do ... you see, I had the experience, I've been there and done that. You wouldn't know where to begin, couldn't even imagine where to begin I don't expect.

You're just rattling, like an old worn out car. You have no idea.

Loren Michael wrote:
fact-man-2 wrote:
Loren Michael wrote:
I understand that there's a fantasy system out there that you're thinking of, but it's just that, a fantasy. If you want to change it, you have to acknowledge that there's a system now that needs to be dealt with somehow. You're not doing that.

No, I'm not

I know. Given the relevance of that system to so many visions of a better world, including your own, that's a huge problem for you. You're ignoring the height of the mountain you have to climb. I'm just noting that you're going to die on that mountain if you ever tire of telling everyone how great the other side is that you have never seen, and once you're done telling everyone how little the naysayers know about the mountain's height and other side.

Most of what we know was "never seen" before some imaginitive and very creative character built it or showed it to us in one way or another, dude.

Besides, it isn't me who has to climb the mountain, it's everyone, and leaders will arise to lead them up it, as history has shown time and again.

Loren Michael wrote:
If no one ever imagined a better future, we'd probably not ever achieve one. But if they do, we'll stand a chance. Why are you so against this?

This is again you confusing disagreement for political difference.

You didn't answert he question, why are you so against this? Speak to it, dude, man up.

Loren Michael wrote:[
I'm against "solutions" that don't grapple with political and economic realities.

You've never examined my solution so you cannot know this, thinking you do is just blind arrogance, with a heaping shovel full of condescension and bullshit.

I'd agree that examining my sysem takes some effort and a few brain cells and even some courage. You seem to be lacking in these qualities because you've consistently refused to do a close examination. Maybe it's fear, I dunno.

Loren Michael wrote:
This is why I spend my time on things like the aforementioned Senate thread, saying things like that if people want to get things done, they need to account for that.

You described the problem but you never said how it might be repaired or even if its reparable. A solution has to be specified, dude, you never specified. You just kept describing the problem.

Loren Michael wrote:
People who agitate for a better future without acknowledging the heavy lifting are less than useless to their own goal.

I've acknowledged the heavy lifting a thousand times, are you kidding? :scratch:

Ive also said it's not an impossible task.

I've also said it's a lot like a pot of water placed over heat on a stove, which because we know the facts about thermodynamics, we can predict will come to a boil, and whatta ya know, we do it every time. My science does that, it predicts the next most probable state, which is the system I have tried to elaborate here on several occasions only to be rudely interrupted and ceaselessly ridiculed and really quite prevented from doing what I set out to do, a quashing you participated in with some glee, i might add.

So get it straight dude, or STFU about it. I'm not going to do this, everyone is going to do it, except those who jump from tall buildings when the market smokes, a lot of those gamblers no doubt. I am predicting the next most probable state. Try to get that through your head.

The water boils. We can predict this. Boiling is the next most probable state after applying heat.

And your assertion that we don't fully understand humans and therefore can't build human systems that won't decay or become corrupted ... is bogus. We don't know eveything about human nature, but we know enough to do what we have to do and if you think not then move over and get out of the way of those who do, you're holding up the show.

In terms of stress and difficulty, nothing in politics, governance, or economics or any combination of the three holds a candle to what the crew of Apollo 13 experienced. Nothing! And they did not fail. They did not come unglued. They did not leap from a window in their tall building. They did the job, and nobody could have deterred them from it with an offer of a $50 billion bribe.

Get real, dude, read your own posts, but do it honestly, they're flopping like a tuna

FACT-MAN-2 wrote:
Mike_L wrote:
Loren Michael wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:The major corperations have taken over. THe great 1% is claiming more and more of the national wealth. More and more people are slipping into poverty. There is no investment in infrastructure. The country is literally going to collapse.


The only purpose economic forecasts have is that they make astrology respectable, as someone once said.

The economy is recovering now, things are getting better now. Things may head deep south in the future, but it'd be silly to assume that collapse will be the likely outcome of future tension. Future could usher in the votes for politicians in favor of broad reforms. Or not. I don't know, and neither do you.

According to The Pew Research Center, recovery is pretty much limited to the fortunate "seven percent". :dunno:

Don't confuse LM with facts, judging by his commentary, he seems quite unable to fathom them.

Making personal attacks against and inflammatory comments toward other forum members is not allowed, as per the Forum User's Agreement, paragraph 1.2.c and 1.2.e, to which you agreed when you joined our forum.

[Reveal] Spoiler: relevant section of the Forum User's Agreement
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Re: First Libor now ISDAfix?

#19  Postby UndercoverElephant » Mar 29, 2014 10:19 pm

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-02-2 ... as-removed


Two days ago the FT released a clear, informative and fact-based article, titled simply enough "Gold price rigging fears put investors on alert" in which author Madison Marriage, citing a report by the Fideres consultancy, revealed that global gold prices may have been manipulated on 50 per cent of occasions between January 2010 and December 2013.


All that is there now is this:

Image


And since we can only assume the article has been lost to FT readers due to some server glitch, and not due to post-editorial consorship or certainly an angry phone call from the Bank of England or some comparable institution, we are happy to recreate it in its entirety.


Financial Times wrote:
Gold price rigging fears put investors on alert

By Madison Marriage

Global gold prices may have been manipulated on 50 per cent of occasions between January 2010 and December 2013, according to analysis by Fideres, a consultancy.

The findings come amid a probe by German and UK regulators into alleged manipulation of the gold price, which is set twice a day by Deutsche Bank, HSBC, Barclays, Bank of Nova Scotia and Société Générale in a process known as the “London gold fixing”.

Fideres’ research found the gold price frequently climbs (or falls) once a twice-daily conference call between the five banks begins, peaks (or troughs) almost exactly as the call ends and then experiences a sharp reversal, a pattern it alleged may be evidence of “collusive behaviour”.

“[This] is indicative of panel banks pushing the gold price upwards on the basis of a strategy that was likely predetermined before the start of the call in order to benefit their existing positions or pending orders,” Fideres concluded.

“The behaviour of the gold price is very suspicious in 50 per cent of cases. This is not something you would expect to see if you take into account normal market factors,“ said Alberto Thomas, a partner at Fideres.

Alasdair Macleod, head of research at GoldMoney, a dealer in physical gold, added: “When the banks fix the price, the advantage they have is that they know what orders they have in the pocket. There is a possibility that they are gaming the system.”

Pension funds, hedge funds, commodity trading advisers and futures traders are most likely to have suffered losses as a result, according to Mr Thomas, who said that many of these groups were “definitely ready” to file lawsuits.

Daniel Brockett, a partner at law firm Quinn Emanuel, also said he had spoken to several investors concerned about potential losses.

“It is fair to say that economic work suggests there are certain days when [the five banks] are not only tipping their clients off, but also colluding with one another,” he said.

Matt Johnson, head of distribution at ETF Securities, one of the largest providers of exchange traded products, said that if gold price collusion is proven, “investors in products with an expiry price based around the fixing could have been badly impacted”.

Gregory Asciolla, a partner at Labaton Sucharow, a US law firm, added: “There are certainly good reasons for investors to be concerned. They are paying close attention to this and if the investigations go somewhere, it would not surprise me if there were lawsuits filed around the world.”

All five banks declined to comment on the findings, which come amid growing regulatory scrutiny of gold and precious metal benchmarks.

BaFin, the German regulator, has launched an investigation into gold-price manipulation and demanded documents from Deutsche Bank. The bank last month decided to end its role in gold and silver pricing. The UK’s Financial Conduct Authority is also examining how the price of gold and other precious metals is set as part of a wider probe into benchmark manipulation following findings of wrongdoing with respect to Libor and similar allegations with respect to the foreign exchange market.

The US Commodity Futures Trading Commission has reportedly held private meetings to discuss gold manipulation, but declined to confirm or deny that an investigation was ongoing.
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