From the Department of We're All In It Together...

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Re: From the Department of We're All In It Together...

#121  Postby Agrippina » Mar 28, 2014 5:03 pm

azeed wrote:Zimbabwe's land reform ten years on: new study dispels the myths

Professor Bill Kinsey, of the Ruzivo Trust and the Free University, Amsterdam, commented: 'Whatever you thought about the land issue in Zimbabwe, be prepared to change your mind.'

Myth 1 - Land reform has been a total failure
Myth 2 - The beneficiaries have been largely political 'cronies'
Myth 3 - There is no investment in the new resettlements
Myth 4 - Agriculture is in complete ruins creating chronic food insecurity
Myth 5 - The rural economy has collapsed


Please bring that and your message to the millions of illegal aliens taking jobs from our local people because there aren't any jobs in their country.
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Re: From the Department of We're All In It Together...

#122  Postby mrjonno » Mar 28, 2014 5:11 pm

Not really sure having income tax or inheritance tax on large estates is quite the same as Zimbabwe farming policy
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Re: From the Department of We're All In It Together...

#123  Postby ED209 » Mar 28, 2014 5:15 pm

It's not, but apparently it's a good idea to replace inheritance tax with a system where all ownership reverts to some unnamed governing body for them to decide who gets to borrow it next.
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Re: From the Department of We're All In It Together...

#124  Postby minininja » Mar 28, 2014 5:42 pm

ED209 wrote:It's not, but apparently it's a good idea to replace inheritance tax with a system where all ownership reverts to some unnamed governing body for them to decide who gets to borrow it next.

Oh come on, nobody has suggested anything like that. If you're not going to attempt to engage seriously it makes the whole discussion rather pointless.
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Re: From the Department of We're All In It Together...

#125  Postby ED209 » Mar 28, 2014 6:26 pm

That is precisely what has been suggested.

And to be absolutely clear, I say 'unnamed' not because it will be done in secret but because the question of exactly who gets to apportion everything is currently a 'detail' which is still to be worked out, and there were objections when someone used the word 'state' earlier.
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Re: From the Department of We're All In It Together...

#126  Postby Agrippina » Mar 28, 2014 6:44 pm

ED209 wrote:That is precisely what has been suggested.

And to be absolutely clear, I say 'unnamed' not because it will be done in secret but because the question of exactly who gets to apportion everything is currently a 'detail' which is still to be worked out, and there were objections when someone used the word 'state' earlier.


It's the thin edge of the wedge. Allow the government into your decisions about who can have your property when it's no longer your property, and they'll be taking it from you in your lifetime.
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Re: From the Department of We're All In It Together...

#127  Postby ED209 » Mar 28, 2014 6:57 pm

Well it's already been said that controls over lifetime gifts will be necessary to prevent abuse of the wonderful new system, so the wedge is in there good and proper already. If you have even a lifetime lease over something, you don't own it, you are borrowing it, and if you are working in order to pay to have your limited claim over it then you are renting it. Everything falls under inheritance tax, not just houses BTW.
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Re: From the Department of We're All In It Together...

#128  Postby azeed » Mar 28, 2014 8:36 pm

minininja wrote:Oh come on, nobody has suggested anything like that.


It's very interesting to see so many people so determined to deny greater equality even though they would all personally benefit from it.
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Re: From the Department of We're All In It Together...

#129  Postby azeed » Mar 28, 2014 8:56 pm

ED209 wrote:Well it's already been said that controls over lifetime gifts will be necessary to prevent abuse of the wonderful new system, so the wedge is in there good and proper already. If you have even a lifetime lease over something, you don't own it, you are borrowing it, and if you are working in order to pay to have your limited claim over it then you are renting it. Everything falls under inheritance tax, not just houses BTW.


Unearned income is very bad for society because it is parasitical in nature. Other people will ultimately be forced to work to create the unearned income.

That doesn't mean you can't have personal property. You just have to earn it. Laws forbidding unearned income (perhaps with exemptions for modest amounts, or any amount given for the purpose of health care or education) are compatible with right-wing and left-wing societies.

The right-wing flavour would be a nation of small-scale shareholders and property-owners who pay for their own health care and pensions. The right do like to identify themselves as the kind of people who like to "get on" in life and since a more equal society levels the playing field opportunities to "get on" would be available to more people.

The left-wing flavour would have a larger state including more state-owned industries, health service, etc. There would be a better regulatory framework given that the left wisely don't believe in the magical ability of the free market to always take the correct decision.

A prohibition on unearned income, or punitive taxes which amount to the same thing, would not be the end of politics or of personal property. I'd love to know how a corpse can be said to own anything anyway.
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Re: From the Department of We're All In It Together...

#130  Postby Beatsong » Mar 29, 2014 12:00 am

I'm curious about the whole "providing for one's children" angle.

Average life expectancy is what - now about 80 for women and a bit less for men? Say most people have kids in their late 20s and 30s - that means most people's "children" are going to be around 50 or more by the time they die. Most people by that age, particularly if they're from the kinds of families that have this kind of property to pass on, already have a substantial career behind them and have paid off a good chunk of their own house. These aren't fresh faced 18 year olds desperate for the chance to go to university we're talking about.

Of course it's nice to think those "children" will have some inheritance to help with their own retirement. But that's all it is - nice. It's hardly the kind opportunity-creating life start that the rhetoric makes it out to be.

Wouldn't it make far more sense if that wealth, rather than being hoarded to give a tiny proportion of middle aged people a wealthy retirement, were available to spend on this that would actually help YOUNG people over the country as a whole get a decent start to life?

I also don't really understand this mentality from a personal POV. I have two kids, and I'm an absolutely parenting-obsessed, doting dad. My life is utterly dedicated to them. But that expresses itself by (a) trying to make sure they grow into the kind of people that can do well for themselves, get decent jobs etc, and (b) hoping that the society they have to live in doesn't go even further down the pan than it already is. The importance of leaving them a fortune when they're 50 just isn't on my radar. I'd hope that (a) above would already have taken care of most of their pressing material needs by then, and it seems more important that some of my money, and everyone else's, goes toward (b).

I don't get it.
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Re: From the Department of We're All In It Together...

#131  Postby ED209 » Mar 29, 2014 12:10 am

Well for one thing it's commonplace to bequeath things to grandkids, at least partly so as not to trigger another inheritance tax liability for as long as possible.
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Re: From the Department of We're All In It Together...

#132  Postby Beatsong » Mar 29, 2014 12:22 am

OK, fair enough. I'm a long way off having those so that hadn't occurred to me.
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Re: From the Department of We're All In It Together...

#133  Postby Agrippina » Mar 29, 2014 11:20 am

azeed wrote:
ED209 wrote:Well it's already been said that controls over lifetime gifts will be necessary to prevent abuse of the wonderful new system, so the wedge is in there good and proper already. If you have even a lifetime lease over something, you don't own it, you are borrowing it, and if you are working in order to pay to have your limited claim over it then you are renting it. Everything falls under inheritance tax, not just houses BTW.


Unearned income is very bad for society because it is parasitical in nature. Other people will ultimately be forced to work to create the unearned income.

That doesn't mean you can't have personal property. You just have to earn it. Laws forbidding unearned income (perhaps with exemptions for modest amounts, or any amount given for the purpose of health care or education) are compatible with right-wing and left-wing societies.

The right-wing flavour would be a nation of small-scale shareholders and property-owners who pay for their own health care and pensions. The right do like to identify themselves as the kind of people who like to "get on" in life and since a more equal society levels the playing field opportunities to "get on" would be available to more people.

The left-wing flavour would have a larger state including more state-owned industries, health service, etc. There would be a better regulatory framework given that the left wisely don't believe in the magical ability of the free market to always take the correct decision.

A prohibition on unearned income, or punitive taxes which amount to the same thing, would not be the end of politics or of personal property. I'd love to know how a corpse can be said to own anything anyway.


The first people I would like to see punished under such a law would be politicians. Most of them don't actually do any work, so everything they're paid is "unearned income." :roll:
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Re: From the Department of We're All In It Together...

#134  Postby Scot Dutchy » Mar 29, 2014 11:27 am

Maybe in SA Aggie. Here they have to work and work long hours.
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Re: From the Department of We're All In It Together...

#135  Postby Agrippina » Mar 29, 2014 11:38 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:Maybe in SA Aggie. Here they have to work and work long hours.


Aw come on Scot, do you actually believe all those summits and conferences and touring with vast entourages are actual work? Please, they could do that from their offices on Skype, and saving the taxpayers a whole lot of money. Argh! :nono:
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Re: From the Department of We're All In It Together...

#136  Postby Scot Dutchy » Mar 29, 2014 4:22 pm

Agrippina wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:Maybe in SA Aggie. Here they have to work and work long hours.


Aw come on Scot, do you actually believe all those summits and conferences and touring with vast entourages are actual work? Please, they could do that from their offices on Skype, and saving the taxpayers a whole lot of money. Argh! :nono:


I was married to one for 17 years. There were perks but that is true of all professions. Do you have any idea what teaching is really like? The kids had six weeks off in the summer. My wife only had four. Have you ever stood in front of a class of 15-17 year olds?

Maybe in SA it is a waste of money but so are many other things. Here money is not wasted and people have to earn it. Don't you have any school inspectors? Here they are ferocious.

I wonder what Campers would say about this.
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Re: From the Department of We're All In It Together...

#137  Postby Agrippina » Mar 29, 2014 4:40 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:Maybe in SA Aggie. Here they have to work and work long hours.


Aw come on Scot, do you actually believe all those summits and conferences and touring with vast entourages are actual work? Please, they could do that from their offices on Skype, and saving the taxpayers a whole lot of money. Argh! :nono:


I was married to one for 17 years. There were perks but that is true of all professions. Do you have any idea what teaching is really like? The kids had six weeks off in the summer. My wife only had four. Have you ever stood in front of a class of 15-17 year olds?

Maybe in SA it is a waste of money but so are many other things. Here money is not wasted and people have to earn it. Don't you have any school inspectors? Here they are ferocious.

I wonder what Campers would say about this.


I'm not talking about teachers, I'm talking about people who fly around in private jets with entire entourages of people to meet other people who fly in private jets to eat expensive food, swap gifts and sit around for days talking rubbish about how they're going to change the world, and then never do what they say they're going to do. Try to point out what as been achieved by the people who've attended all the summits Obama, Cameron et al have been to in the last 5 years, and i'll admit I'm wrong.
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Re: From the Department of We're All In It Together...

#138  Postby Scot Dutchy » Mar 29, 2014 4:45 pm

Sorry Aggie. I thought I read teachers. I don't know why I just did.
Myths in islam Women and islam Musilm opinion polls


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Re: From the Department of We're All In It Together...

#139  Postby Agrippina » Mar 29, 2014 4:59 pm

No prob. :thumbup:
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Re: From the Department of We're All In It Together...

#140  Postby mrjonno » Mar 29, 2014 8:25 pm

Average life expectancy is what - now about 80 for women and a bit less for men? Say most people have kids in their late 20s and 30s - that means most people's "children" are going to be around 50 or more by the time they die. Most people by that age, particularly if they're from the kinds of families that have this kind of property to pass on, already have a substantial career behind them and have paid off a good chunk of their own house. These aren't fresh faced 18 year olds desperate for the chance to go to university we're talking about.


Err average age of a first time buyer in London is 35 and expected to reach 40.

With the way house prices are increasing you may will not have a deposit until you are to 50. Without high inheritance taxes we are basically looking at the only way you can realistically 'buy' a house is to at least inherit part of one.

Inheritance tax - housing prices - care of the elderly - welfare bills (ie pensions) are all intrinsically linked
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