From the Department of We're All In It Together...

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Re: From the Department of We're All In It Together...

#141  Postby Beatsong » Mar 29, 2014 9:25 pm

mrjonno wrote:
Average life expectancy is what - now about 80 for women and a bit less for men? Say most people have kids in their late 20s and 30s - that means most people's "children" are going to be around 50 or more by the time they die. Most people by that age, particularly if they're from the kinds of families that have this kind of property to pass on, already have a substantial career behind them and have paid off a good chunk of their own house. These aren't fresh faced 18 year olds desperate for the chance to go to university we're talking about.


Err average age of a first time buyer in London is 35 and expected to reach 40.

With the way house prices are increasing you may will not have a deposit until you are to 50. Without high inheritance taxes we are basically looking at the only way you can realistically 'buy' a house is to at least inherit part of one.


That's already true of London, as most people who have tried to live there know.

But London in not typical of the UK as a whole, and only a minority of the UK's citizens live in it.
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Re: From the Department of We're All In It Together...

#142  Postby mrjonno » Mar 30, 2014 11:57 am

But London in not typical of the UK as a whole, and only a minority of the UK's citizens live in it.


Rightly or wrongly and until we get a 2nd city of at least 3-5 million its going to dominate the British economy
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Re: From the Department of We're All In It Together...

#143  Postby Beatsong » Mar 30, 2014 3:06 pm

No question it does that, but that's not the point. You can't take the age at which people IN LONDON start owning a significant portion of their houses, as a basis for the implications of inheritance tax over the UK IN GENERAL.
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Re: From the Department of We're All In It Together...

#144  Postby laklak » Mar 30, 2014 3:14 pm

Yeah, that's like spending a week in New York and thinking you've seen the States. The median home price in San Francisco is about 850,000, while in Bradenton just up the road from me it's 137,000.
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Re: From the Department of We're All In It Together...

#145  Postby mrjonno » Mar 30, 2014 5:38 pm

laklak wrote:Yeah, that's like spending a week in New York and thinking you've seen the States. The median home price in San Francisco is about 850,000, while in Bradenton just up the road from me it's 137,000.


I would never anywhere in any country if it didn't have decent public transport and access to culture which basically means living in a city.

The only place in the world with under a million people within walking distance I've seen that I like is Geneva Switzerland which is 200 to 500000 depending on how you measure it. It's a brilliant city due the International organisations bringing in culture and infrastructure (and there are few guns there despite it being in Switzerland that's a rural pursuit)
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Re: From the Department of We're All In It Together...

#146  Postby laklak » Mar 30, 2014 7:03 pm

Meanwhile, in the Socialist Island Paradise of Cuba, steps are underway to "update" their economic model. Wholly foreign owned companies are now allowed, corporate tax rates have been cut in half to 15%, new companies will be totally exempt from taxes for the first 8 years, foreigners working in Cuba are exempt from Cuban income tax, and hundreds of thousands of Cuban citizens are now opening their own, privately held businesses. There are a couple of caveats - corporate tax rates for companies exploiting natural resources like petroleum or nickel mining pay income tax rates much higher, as high as 50%, and health care and education are not open for foreign investment.

GASP. Cuba is now more business friendly than the United States. Whooda thunk it? Does this mean that the much admired Cuban Socialist model is (dare I say it) a miserable failure? That the way forward is an even more Libertarian approach than the U.S.? Say it ain't so, Joe (Stalin)! What next? Personal wealth passed down the generations?

http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/politics/2014/03/29/cuban-lawmakers-approve-new-foreign-investment-law-to-strengthen-struggling/
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Re: From the Department of We're All In It Together...

#147  Postby Scot Dutchy » Mar 30, 2014 8:53 pm

London is a dump. I really mean it. Go to Berlin and see what a capital city should look like.
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Re: From the Department of We're All In It Together...

#148  Postby Macdoc » Mar 30, 2014 10:55 pm

laklak....the Faux News lackey.

China's one party system is doing just fine and Cuba will tag along. It ain't going back to the Batista criminal empire.
Will be closer to a Canadian/Scandanavian social democracy with a mixed economy.

Image

Reform in Cuba
Towards a mixed economy

Economic reform begins in earnest


http://www.economist.com/node/17043051
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Re: From the Department of We're All In It Together...

#149  Postby ED209 » Mar 30, 2014 11:19 pm

laklak wrote:Meanwhile, in the Socialist Island Paradise of Cuba....[/url]


Very nice but what on earth does this have to do with anything in this thread :scratch:
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Re: From the Department of We're All In It Together...

#150  Postby laklak » Mar 31, 2014 3:11 am

Macdoc wrote:laklak....the Faux News lackey.

China's one party system is doing just fine and Cuba will tag along. It ain't going back to the Batista criminal empire.
Will be closer to a Canadian/Scandanavian social democracy with a mixed economy.

Image

Reform in Cuba
Towards a mixed economy

Economic reform begins in earnest


http://www.economist.com/node/17043051


Lol. Macdoc, your HuffPo glasses are all fogged up. Maybe you need to buy some Capitalist Lens Cleaner, I'm sure the Chinese will make you some. When they're not poisoning the entire world with their coal and melamine dog food, that is. I'll put $1000 on it here and now, within 10 years there will be big casinos on the Cuban coast and it will be the next great retirement country for Americans. The Canucks can have Florida, I'll just take the boat 90 miles south of Key West and stay there. I love beans and rice.

Hell, the Greenback is already legal tender, they're laying off tens if not hundreds of thousands of slacker Socialist drones and allowing anyone with money to buy whatever they want. What's more Libertarian than that, eh?

The news is germane because it shows, once again, how socialism is a bankrupt philosophy. Even if you take ALL the money from ALL the rich people and "redistribute to the people" you'll eventually get sick of living in a shithole and let the Evil Capitalists back in.
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Re: From the Department of We're All In It Together...

#151  Postby minininja » Mar 31, 2014 11:15 am

Well when their nearest and biggest economic neighbour refuses to trade for decades on end simply out of spite it makes it difficult for them to do as well as they otherwise might have.
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Re: From the Department of We're All In It Together...

#152  Postby Strontium Dog » Mar 31, 2014 11:58 am

Ah, the old "socialism won't work unless the capitalists trade us the products of capitalism!!1" canard. That never gets new.
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Re: From the Department of We're All In It Together...

#153  Postby laklak » Mar 31, 2014 2:16 pm

God, some of y'all sound like Christian Fundies arguing against evolution. No matter how many times socialist systems fail, usually in a spectacular manner, you find a reason it's the fault of the Ebil Capitalists. According to macdoc China is doing well - riiiiiiight. Highest rate of infanticide it the world, most polluted country on the planet, a higher Gini coefficient than the U.S. and they're driving everything from sea cucumbers to rhinos to extinction by either eating them or turning them into boner pills. Venezuela is a shithole basket case, the USSR is kaput, North Korea is a cross between The Road and Mad Max, and now Cuba.

Macdoc, if you can refute anything in the "Faux News" article please feel free to do so.
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Re: From the Department of We're All In It Together...

#154  Postby Strontium Dog » Mar 31, 2014 2:35 pm

Careful now laklak, you wouldn't want to meet the same fate as Hugin for telling the truth.
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Re: From the Department of We're All In It Together...

#155  Postby mrjonno » Mar 31, 2014 3:07 pm

laklak wrote:God, some of y'all sound like Christian Fundies arguing against evolution. No matter how many times socialist systems fail, usually in a spectacular manner, you find a reason it's the fault of the Ebil Capitalists. According to macdoc China is doing well - riiiiiiight. Highest rate of infanticide it the world, most polluted country on the planet, a higher Gini coefficient than the U.S. and they're driving everything from sea cucumbers to rhinos to extinction by either eating them or turning them into boner pills. Venezuela is a shithole basket case, the USSR is kaput, North Korea is a cross between The Road and Mad Max, and now Cuba.

Macdoc, if you can refute anything in the "Faux News" article please feel free to do so.


China is a nasty unregulated capitalism (unions what unions!) , give me regulated freeish market anyday
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Re: From the Department of We're All In It Together...

#156  Postby laklak » Mar 31, 2014 3:25 pm

We are more in agreement than we are disagreement, mrjonno. Regulation is absolutely necessary to prevent a resurgence of 19th century robber baron capitalism. The fly in the ointment is the scope of the regulations.
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Re: From the Department of We're All In It Together...

#157  Postby minininja » Mar 31, 2014 5:40 pm

laklak wrote:God, some of y'all sound like Christian Fundies arguing against evolution. No matter how many times socialist systems fail, usually in a spectacular manner, you find a reason it's the fault of the Ebil Capitalists.


You want to talk about creationist style arguments? You're using single points of cherry-picked data, with no control, in a system with high levels of noise to justify blanket statements of generalised policy, and then using that to write off specific economic policies in entirely different circumstances. If we had multiple worlds and could run history multiple times with different economic policies in different countries then you might be able to draw some valid conclusions from it.

But redistribution in general has been used the world over to great effect, - not least in America in the 1950s where the top tax rates were above 90% and the investments made some of the greatest progress towards overall prosperity that they've had before or since. And the reason for that can be explained with sound economic principles.

So you're right, I shouldn't have tried to explain the economic reasons why Cuba might not be doing so well. - Though I want to point out that the fact that America is capitalist makes absolutely no difference to the economic effects of the embargo on Cuba. - I should have just said that the methodology you're using to judge economic policies here is fundamentally flawed and irrational.

If you want to discuss the effects of redistributive economic policies in economic terms, where they do and don't work, the benefits and limitations, etc, then fine. But if the best you can do is say "look at this particular example where not everything is perfect, therefore the whole concept in general is bad" then you have nothing worthwhile to say on the subject.
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Re: From the Department of We're All In It Together...

#158  Postby laklak » Mar 31, 2014 6:43 pm

Not everything is perfect? That's damning it with faint praise, methinks. Pretty much every socialist economy is in the shitter, and socialism is based on redistribution of wealth. That's it's entire raison d'être. Those people have what we don't so let's get some guns and take it. Happened in the USSR, China, Venezuela, Cuba, the Eastern Bloc; it's happened in every socialist society on the planet. Usually with a few forced labor camps and mass graves thrown in for seasoning. Can't make an omelet etc. The average, government mandated wage in Cuba is around $20 a month. Now, maybe I'm just a crotchety old capitalist running dog, but I don't see living on rice and beans, making $20 a month, driving a mule cart and wiping my ass with my hands as an equitable trade for "free" healthcare and a bag of government rice each month. Given the less than exemplary success of the grand Socialist Experiment I think I'll take capitalism, warts and all.

There's always a lot of talk around here about "wealth inequality" and "redistribution". In this thread, particularly as it relates to inheritance or estate taxes. It isn't fair that that poncey git gets a couple of million quid when his daddy pops his clogs and I don't. So we'll take it from him and redistribute it to "the people", because, after all, he didn't "earn" that money. Well, neither did The People. I'll never understand how it's considered immoral to take unearned money from your parents but it isn't immoral to take unearned money from total strangers.
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Re: From the Department of We're All In It Together...

#159  Postby Beatsong » Mar 31, 2014 7:04 pm

Hang on. Laklak - are we talking about redistribution, or socialism? 'Cos they're not the same thing, you know.
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Re: From the Department of We're All In It Together...

#160  Postby laklak » Mar 31, 2014 7:34 pm

A bit of both, actually. I realize I went a bit OT with the discussion of Cuba, but I think the two concepts are linked.
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