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Jakov wrote:You cannot have capitalism without economic growth as a goal.
Capitalists want their wealth to grow, it doesn't grow by magic but by somebody working.
They invest money in an enterprise with no incentive to protect the environment So widespread poverty and environmental destruction are not mistakes, they are the system working as it should.
Tomas Kringen wrote:...Capitalism is respect for property, nothing more...
You cannot have capitalism without economic growth as a goal.
Tomas Kringen wrote:Capitalists want their wealth to grow, it doesn't grow by magic but by somebody working.
Wrong.
Tomas Kringen wrote:You mean only capitalists don't want more wealth, I guess poor socialists are happy being poor then?
And what is this "somebody working", you mean capitalists don't work?
Tomas Kringen wrote:
They invest money in an enterprise with no incentive to protect the environment So widespread poverty and environmental destruction are not mistakes, they are the system working as it should.
Wrong#again# A capitalist is just as moral as you, a capitalist doesn't care any less about the environment than you. Damage to the environment is not a capitalist trait#look at all the environmental damage done by the Soviet union for example#. Capitalists will suffer just as much from a polluted environment as everyone else. Guess what, capitalists are humans to they also have children and also wants whats best for them.
Tomas Kringen wrote:
You got a pretty narrow minded view of fellow humans who just happen to not share your ideology.
Macdoc wrote:You cannot have capitalism without economic growth as a goal.
Incorrect. Sustainable capitalism does not require growth.
"More" is not "better."
I am a sustainable capitalist, I don't want to grow, I pay my staff well and I offer more value for money each year. I use capital to run the business and pay part of my profits to those that support me with capital.
Macdoc wrote:
A baker is a sustainable capitalist - he has a consumable product, he tries to improve over time and does not require growth, he does require capital, materials and labour and creates a market for the results of the real wealth aka good bread...that he creates.
He is paid most often in money ( which is not real wealth ).
He then provides a return on the capital ( his own and others ), pays his staff and other expenses and circulates or saves his profits.
He does not need growth.
He does require protection from predation.
Frontier mentality is based on growth and that is unsustainable. Predation becomes the norm ...see the finance industry.
Capitalism is not the problem, predation is ......where ever it arises.
Jakov wrote:
Really? Under feudalism property was also respected. Is feudalism the same as capitalism then?
Why?
I don't know what poor socialists want, for I am not a socialist.
Capital does not work, capital owns. Labor does laboring. Individual humans who have some labor inside them will work, and that includes small business owners.
So consider a marketplace with factories producing paint. A biproduct is a harmful pollutant. Each individual factory can either pay to have the biproduct treated or can dump it in the river so the environment pays. Now imagine just one factory dumps pollution in the river, it will be able to reduce its prices and drive the others out of business. Because of competition now all the factories will be dumping pollution in the river, even though they are mostly made up of good moral upstanding humans.
So in any economic system you'll have good people doing good things and bad people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things (like dump pollution in a river), that requires free market competition under capitalism.
And don't suggest liberal intervention and regulation. Democratic structures are very weak. The same powerful business interests will corrupt democratic government. Each individual workplace can expect an inspection once every few centuries. The iron law of the market is far stronger and more constrictive than the legal law made by government.
The Soviet Union had many of the bad features of capitalism. A concentration of power, a class of rulers capable of arbitrary actions, a large exploited underclass, environmental destruction. The answer is neither capitalism nor Stalinism.
I've seen a wide range of what my fellow humans can do. You have a rosey-coloured and naive view of what the world is like.
Loren Michael wrote:
Re: "Sustainable capitalism" that "does not require growth": How does this deal with increases in efficiency? I ask, because if efficiency is increased, then there will be growth unless steps are taken to prevent that growth. How does it deal with new products and services? Are the number of apps available for the iPhone to be capped? Do we ban new songs from being written?
28,000 rivers vanish from Chinese map
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