Please can we get rid of the monetary system?

The monetary system is clearly holding us back and killing billions of people.

Explore the business, economy, finance and trade aspects of human society.

Moderators: Calilasseia, ADParker

Re: Please can we get rid of the monetary system?

#61  Postby SafeAsMilk » Sep 23, 2013 7:10 pm

Veenet wrote:
It seems like the OP wants a non-monetary system that is exactly the same as the monetary system we have right now, and a non-government that is exactly like the government we have now.


Except the new system doesn't use money for a start and the rulers actually have our best interest at heart. So its completely different. good effort tho. Fool!!

:lol: So what are you using to count those man hours, an abacus?

Good luck magically finding those rulers with your best interest at heart, nobody's ever tried that before :lol:
Yes, a mighty hot dog is our Lord!
User avatar
SafeAsMilk
 
Name: Makes Fails
Posts: 12354
Age: 38
Male

United States (us)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Please can we get rid of the monetary system?

#62  Postby Veenet » Sep 23, 2013 7:13 pm

:lol: So what are you using to count those man hours, an abacus?

Good luck magically finding those rulers with your best interest at heart, nobody's ever tried that before :lol:


you can invent a system that counts them using software if you wanted to.

No one is talking about magic. if you got rid of money you would get rid of a lot of greed, then it would be a great deal easier to find people who did have our best interest at heart. No one has tried that before in a non monetary system because we have never had one in modern times.

I used the word rulers earlier but I should have said "set of people" instead because I believe we don't need anyone "ruling" us, only helping us manage ourselves.
Veenet
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: sean kelly
Posts: 40

Country: America
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Please can we get rid of the monetary system?

#63  Postby babel » Sep 23, 2013 7:28 pm

Veenet wrote:
Yeah, I don't really know where that was going, only that it made little sense.

Free airplanes, though. How about that?


No one mentioned free airplanes. It was a really simple point. Surprised you didn't understand. It was in reply to a comment made claiming in pre-monetary times there was famine still. however due to new technologies such as airplanes food can be transported all over the world where as it couldn't back then. That's where I was going..

But who will manufacture planes and what will you use as a trade off to 'pay' for them?
Milton Jones: "Just bought a broken second hand time machine - plan to fix it, have lots of adventures then go back and not buy it, he he idiots.."
User avatar
babel
 
Posts: 4673
Age: 37
Male

Country: Belgium
Belgium (be)
Print view this post

Re: Please can we get rid of the monetary system?

#64  Postby SafeAsMilk » Sep 23, 2013 7:31 pm

Veenet wrote:
:lol: So what are you using to count those man hours, an abacus?

Good luck magically finding those rulers with your best interest at heart, nobody's ever tried that before :lol:


you can invent a system that counts them using software if you wanted to.

No one is talking about magic. if you got rid of money you would get rid of a lot of greed, then it would be a great deal easier to find people who did have our best interest at heart. No one has tried that before in a non monetary system because we have never had one in modern times.

They already have a software system to count the value earned via man hours, banks use them. So does Paypal. It's not really any different than money, physical money's value is virtual anyway. You haven't actually changed anything.

Seeing as you haven't really gotten rid of anything, I don't see any basis for your assertion that getting rid of money would somehow get rid of greed, which truly would be magic. Greed will always exist, there will always be people ready to take advantage of any system you devise. Monetary systems are widely used because they are the most effective systems we have. Unless you have a suggestion for a system that could be actually implemented, you're just pissing in the wind.
Yes, a mighty hot dog is our Lord!
User avatar
SafeAsMilk
 
Name: Makes Fails
Posts: 12354
Age: 38
Male

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Please can we get rid of the monetary system?

#65  Postby GrahamH » Sep 23, 2013 8:00 pm

Veenet wrote:No one is talking about magic. if you got rid of money you would get rid of a lot of greed, then it would be a great deal easier to find people who did have our best interest at heart. No one has tried that before in a non monetary system because we have never had one in modern times.


I think you have that backwards. Get rid of greed (and scarcity, and a few other human traits) then you can get rid of money. That would require powerful magic.
Why do you think that?
GrahamH
 
Posts: 18603

Print view this post

Re: Please can we get rid of the monetary system?

#66  Postby The_Metatron » Sep 23, 2013 8:01 pm

Or, free airplanes.
I AM Skepdickus!

Check out Hack's blog, too. He writes good.
User avatar
The_Metatron
Moderator
 
Name: Jesse
Posts: 20373
Age: 55
Male

Country: United States
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Please can we get rid of the monetary system?

#67  Postby Cito di Pense » Sep 24, 2013 6:17 am

GrahamH wrote:
Veenet wrote:No one is talking about magic. if you got rid of money you would get rid of a lot of greed, then it would be a great deal easier to find people who did have our best interest at heart. No one has tried that before in a non monetary system because we have never had one in modern times.


I think you have that backwards. Get rid of greed (and scarcity, and a few other human traits) then you can get rid of money. That would require powerful magic.


How could you have 'scarcity' unless you first had 'greed'? Instead of scarcity, you'd have the oscillations of the logistic equation.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
User avatar
Cito di Pense
 
Name: Ivar Poäng
Posts: 26721
Age: 7
Male

Country: The Heartland
Mongolia (mn)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Please can we get rid of the monetary system?

#68  Postby GrahamH » Sep 24, 2013 6:29 am

Cito di Pense wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
Veenet wrote:No one is talking about magic. if you got rid of money you would get rid of a lot of greed, then it would be a great deal easier to find people who did have our best interest at heart. No one has tried that before in a non monetary system because we have never had one in modern times.


I think you have that backwards. Get rid of greed (and scarcity, and a few other human traits) then you can get rid of money. That would require powerful magic.


How could you have 'scarcity' unless you first had 'greed'? Instead of scarcity, you'd have the oscillations of the logistic equation.

Famine? Drought?
Why do you think that?
GrahamH
 
Posts: 18603

Print view this post

Re: Please can we get rid of the monetary system?

#69  Postby Cito di Pense » Sep 24, 2013 6:36 am

GrahamH wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
Veenet wrote:No one is talking about magic. if you got rid of money you would get rid of a lot of greed, then it would be a great deal easier to find people who did have our best interest at heart. No one has tried that before in a non monetary system because we have never had one in modern times.


I think you have that backwards. Get rid of greed (and scarcity, and a few other human traits) then you can get rid of money. That would require powerful magic.


How could you have 'scarcity' unless you first had 'greed'? Instead of scarcity, you'd have the oscillations of the logistic equation.

Famine? Drought?


Predation. Don't forget predation. Instead of scarcity, we talk about competition and grazing capacity. Don't talk about greed and scarcity until you have a bottle of Special Sauce to go with them. They're constructs.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
User avatar
Cito di Pense
 
Name: Ivar Poäng
Posts: 26721
Age: 7
Male

Country: The Heartland
Mongolia (mn)
Print view this post

Re: Please can we get rid of the monetary system?

#70  Postby Meme » Sep 24, 2013 7:02 am

Veenet wrote:

It is a simplistic way of thinking and i don't have the answers. I wish I had a perfect alternative. It is quite easy to see that the monetary system is holding us back and is deeply flawed and will never work. All i know is that is will never work in the long run so change is inevitable although highly unlikely we would see it in our lifetime.


I suspect you need to educate yourself about the fundamentals of economics in general and exchange systems in particular. I suggest a brief reading of mercantalism and some of the basics of Smithian economics.

Evidence to support the notion that the use of money as a system of exchange is flawed and/or that it is unworkable in the long term would be nice.

Use of currency dates back at least 4000 years, and probably further than 15,000 if you count barter currencies based on physical goods. It is used because it works. The global economy would simply cease to function if money did not exist, even just as a conceptual framework. Any project larger than local-scale development would fall apart without a convenient medium of exchange - which is all that money is.

What you seem to be objecting to is the idea that different types of work have different levels of value attached to them. That's a problem with capitalism and free market economics, not something that is intrinsic to 'money'.

The main problem with the monetary system is that it can never be ethical. If a shop owner knows his mars bar costs 5 cent more than his friend's shop down the road, he would be failing business wise to tell the customer that. if a leading official sitting on the council of foreign relations knows that a particular policy they are thinking of applying will loose his company millions of dollars, he would be failing monetary system wise to apply the policy even if the policy would save millions of lives.


Money in and of itself has no intrinsic moral/ethical quality, likewise the same could be said of the use of currency as a medium of exchange.

The behaviour of individuals and groups to increase their wealth likewise is not intrinsicly unethical. There are uncountable examples of win-win exchange between parties that increase the wealth, or happiness, or utility, or potential interest of both parties.

Your first example of paying dissimilar prices for the same product is not a failing of money in and of itself, its a simple example of the lack of what economists refer to as 'perfect knowledge' in an exchange economy. This is the morality of advantage and caveat emptor.

In an economic system, actors are assumed to primarily act in their own self-interest. Thus the shopkeeper has no interest in setting prices lower if his customers don't know about alternatives. If he's in a monopoly position, then yes, this can be exploited. If he's in a perfectly competitive situation - ie one of perfect knowledge and absolute similarity/exchangeability of goods/services - then by setting prices higher than his competition he loses the sale and gains no utility.

Your second example ignores the fact that conflict of interest regulation exists and the fact that while specific decisions on trade/economics may bring about a onetime benefit to specific companies, these sorts of decisions are usually deleterious to economies in the long term, and thus also bad for the company/country/economy.

Why live in an unethical backwards system that causes 90% of the worlds problems just because it's the simplest way of trading?


90%? Citation needed. I can think of plenty of problems in the world that would exist whether the concept of money was extant or not.

The only way humanity will get rid of money is if it becomes a post-scarcity society, or possibly reverts to anarco-primitivism. Each option has certain appealing points - post-scarcity is a favourite of speculative fiction, both utopian and distopian - but neither is guaranteed to be any more ethical that the current system.
Meme
 
Name: Simon
Posts: 61

Country: Australia
Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: Please can we get rid of the monetary system?

#71  Postby Cito di Pense » Sep 24, 2013 7:33 am

Meme wrote:Use of currency dates back at least 4000 years, and probably further than 15,000 if you count barter currencies based on physical goods. It is used because it works.


Like lots of other things that 'work' (because they haven't failed yet), exchange media are evolved, rather than designed. I'm not dissing your defence of money, but to say something that isn't extinct is still working is a tautology.

Meme wrote:There are uncountable examples of win-win exchange between parties that increase the wealth, or happiness, or utility, or potential interest of both parties.


That does not respond to the problem of economic advantage. Got any more dogma you want to spout at us? Right on cue:

Meme wrote:In an economic system, actors are assumed to primarily act in their own self-interest. Thus the shopkeeper has no interest in setting prices lower if his customers don't know about alternatives. If he's in a monopoly position, then yes, this can be exploited. If he's in a perfectly competitive situation - ie one of perfect knowledge and absolute similarity/exchangeability of goods/services - then by setting prices higher than his competition he loses the sale and gains no utility.


Why are you speculating about perfect conditions? Because God's in his heaven, and all's right with the world? Tell us something we didn't fucking learn on the first day of class. That veenet has not been to the first day of class is beside the point. Economic dogma is not what he needs, which is to learn how to think.

Money isn't used because it works; it's used because it hasn't failed yet.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
User avatar
Cito di Pense
 
Name: Ivar Poäng
Posts: 26721
Age: 7
Male

Country: The Heartland
Mongolia (mn)
Print view this post

Re: Please can we get rid of the monetary system?

#72  Postby babel » Sep 24, 2013 7:50 am

First post of Meme I've come across and looking forward to more in the (near) future. :cheers:
Milton Jones: "Just bought a broken second hand time machine - plan to fix it, have lots of adventures then go back and not buy it, he he idiots.."
User avatar
babel
 
Posts: 4673
Age: 37
Male

Country: Belgium
Belgium (be)
Print view this post

Re: Please can we get rid of the monetary system?

#73  Postby Loren Michael » Sep 24, 2013 8:16 am

Cito di Pense wrote:Money isn't used because it works; it's used because it hasn't failed yet.


Money has "failed" lots of times. Consider hyperinflation. Money is still used though, because it tends to work. When it doesn't work, people switch to alternative forms or they switch to different currencies, such as countries adopting US dollars.
Image
User avatar
Loren Michael
 
Name: Loren Michael
Posts: 7411

Country: China
China (cn)
Print view this post

Re: Please can we get rid of the monetary system?

#74  Postby GrahamH » Sep 24, 2013 8:23 am

Cito di Pense wrote:Predation. Don't forget predation. Instead of scarcity, we talk about competition and grazing capacity. Don't talk about greed and scarcity until you have a bottle of Special Sauce to go with them. They're constructs.


Of course 'they're constructs'. 'Greed' is label for the tendency of people to acquire resources beyond subsistence need. I'm sure we could come up with all sorts of constructs to 'explain' that. My point was simply that 'money makes people greedy' is a particularly naive 'construct'.
Why do you think that?
GrahamH
 
Posts: 18603

Print view this post

Re: Please can we get rid of the monetary system?

#75  Postby Cito di Pense » Sep 24, 2013 9:36 am

Loren Michael wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:Money isn't used because it works; it's used because it hasn't failed yet.


Money has "failed" lots of times. Consider hyperinflation. Money is still used though, because it tends to work. When it doesn't work, people switch to alternative forms or they switch to different currencies, such as countries adopting US dollars.


No, when something empirical fails, it's extinct. Money hasn't failed. Yet. Money is a construct.

It probably won't. "It could be built; it just can't be financed." People don't think of that as a failure of money. They think of it as a failure of imagination.
Last edited by Cito di Pense on Sep 24, 2013 9:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
User avatar
Cito di Pense
 
Name: Ivar Poäng
Posts: 26721
Age: 7
Male

Country: The Heartland
Mongolia (mn)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Please can we get rid of the monetary system?

#76  Postby Cito di Pense » Sep 24, 2013 9:37 am

GrahamH wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:Predation. Don't forget predation. Instead of scarcity, we talk about competition and grazing capacity. Don't talk about greed and scarcity until you have a bottle of Special Sauce to go with them. They're constructs.


Of course 'they're constructs'. 'Greed' is label for the tendency of people to acquire resources beyond subsistence need. I'm sure we could come up with all sorts of constructs to 'explain' that. My point was simply that 'money makes people greedy' is a particularly naive 'construct'.


Well, you're trying to have a conversation with Veenet. Good luck with that.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
User avatar
Cito di Pense
 
Name: Ivar Poäng
Posts: 26721
Age: 7
Male

Country: The Heartland
Mongolia (mn)
Print view this post

Re: Please can we get rid of the monetary system?

#77  Postby Nicko » Sep 24, 2013 11:21 am

Meme wrote:In an economic system, actors are assumed to primarily act in their own self-interest. Thus the shopkeeper has no interest in setting prices lower if his customers don't know about alternatives. If he's in a monopoly position, then yes, this can be exploited. If he's in a perfectly competitive situation - ie one of perfect knowledge and absolute similarity/exchangeability of goods/services - then by setting prices higher than his competition he loses the sale and gains no utility.

Your second example ignores the fact that conflict of interest regulation exists and the fact that while specific decisions on trade/economics may bring about a onetime benefit to specific companies, these sorts of decisions are usually deleterious to economies in the long term, and thus also bad for the company/country/economy.


I broadly agree with the rest of your post and you make good points. This passage struck me as ignoring a fundamental concept of economics: the externality.

You are entirely correct that the collapse of an economy is usually a bad thing for a company operating within it. The problem is that this is not normally factored into the decision-making process of individual companies. It is external to their calculations, hence the name.

The executives running corporations have powerful incentives to focus on delivering short-term profits to shareholders over long-term profitability of the company, let alone the stability of the economy. Some people may recall an object lesson in this being given a few years ago by the financial industry. The risk to the survival of the individual institutions - never mind the entire system - was simply irrelevant to the concerns of the people running them; they were able to earn millions of dollars in bonuses whilst nearly destroying the companies they worked for and nearly the global economy.
"Democracy is asset insurance for the rich. Stop skimping on the payments."

-- Mark Blyth
User avatar
Nicko
 
Name: Nick Williams
Posts: 8617
Age: 42
Male

Country: Australia
Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: Please can we get rid of the monetary system?

#78  Postby cavarka9 » Sep 24, 2013 12:22 pm

Every moment is a choice.Choices you make now determine your destiny.free yourself of old choices made. Success is a journey,not a destination.
User avatar
cavarka9
 
Name: prajna
Posts: 3256

Country: 21.0000° N, 78.0000° E
India (in)
Print view this post

Re: Please can we get rid of the monetary system?

#79  Postby Veenet » Sep 24, 2013 12:42 pm

Well, you're trying to have a conversation with Veenet. Good luck with that.


lol, an odd comment.

I don't think anyone here is going to come up with a viable alternative to the monetary system, I certainly haven't. But that doesn't change the fact that it so so blatantly clear that the monetary system doesn't work and is holding us back immensely. it is inevitable it will have to change if we want to sustain the human race and the planet we live on. I just hope we can think of an alternative before its to late.
Veenet
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: sean kelly
Posts: 40

Country: America
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Please can we get rid of the monetary system?

#80  Postby GrahamH » Sep 24, 2013 1:17 pm

Veenet wrote:
Well, you're trying to have a conversation with Veenet. Good luck with that.


lol, an odd comment.

I don't think anyone here is going to come up with a viable alternative to the monetary system, I certainly haven't. But that doesn't change the fact that it so so blatantly clear that the monetary system doesn't work and is holding us back immensely. it is inevitable it will have to change if we want to sustain the human race and the planet we live on. I just hope we can think of an alternative before its to late.


It is not clear that 'the monetary system is holding us back'.

Are you refering to 'progress', 'sustainability', 'Liberté, égalité, fraternité, or something else?
Why do you think that?
GrahamH
 
Posts: 18603

Print view this post

PreviousNext

Return to Economics

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest