It seems impossible because its so deeply rooted into the people in the entire planets system. But we have to think of a new way of doing things. The technology is there. Its just the monetary system holding us back and causing war, famine and destroying the environment and turning us all into slaves to the people who control the monetary system.

Veenet wrote:It seems impossible because its so deeply rooted into the people in the entire planets system.

That's because it's useful and effective, unlike what you've offered here.

But we have to think of a new way of doing things. The technology is there.

Great, thanks for all your brilliant alternatives. I'll notify the Nobel council immediately.

Its just the monetary system holding us back and causing war, famine and destroying the environment

And how is it doing that exactly?

and turning us all into slaves to the people who control the monetary system.

Who controls this planetary monetary system that you seem so afraid of?

If the money system is supposed to represent an I-owe-you for work actually done, then it is severely flawed when high up CEO can make in one hour the same amount their slaving hourly workers make in a year, when the "owner" of some "intellectual property" can profit indefinitely of a work performed once, and so on. I don't say that we need to do away with the money system, but that the distribution of wealth based on actual work done seems so far out of balance that many people are a form of virtual slave to others who have the financial capability to lobby and ensure that things don't change.

Fact Man has an idea to use some form of energy allocation system if i remember correctly, you'll have to do a search.

This is a largely philosophical question though. In the short to medium term money is here to stay and that's because it makes trading so much simpler than any previous system.

pcCoder wrote:If the money system is supposed to represent an I-owe-you for work actually done, then it is severely flawed when high up CEO can make in one hour the same amount their slaving hourly workers make in a year, when the "owner" of some "intellectual property" can profit indefinitely of a work performed once, and so on. I don't say that we need to do away with the money system, but that the distribution of wealth based on actual work done seems so far out of balance that many people are a form of virtual slave to others who have the financial capability to lobby and ensure that things don't change.

If you didn't meant to say we need to do away with the monetary system, you should change the thread title.

You seem to have an incredibly simplistic view of this whole thing. There's a reason why a company CEO makes more than a cashier jockey at McDonalds - their skills are more valuable. I agree there is an absurd disparity between the rich and poor, but the fact is that some skills are more valuable than others for a variety of reasons, and that's never going to change.

edit: Apologies, I thought this was posted by the OP.

Veenet wrote:But we have to think of a new way of doing things.

I've got an idea: Arithmetic. Let's get rid of arithmetic. Once we've succeeded at that, we can move on to getting rid of algebra and geometry. After that, getting rid of calculus should be a snap.

I think the notion of interest and debt is a far greater detriment to society than money will ever be.

Thomas Eshuis wrote:I think the notion of interest and debt is a far greater detriment to society than money will ever be.

They are inherent in a monetary system though. Receiving interest is no different to investing in a shop, you just get a much higher return from the shop investment. Debt is just agreeing to pay someone at a later date, it's impossible to remove.

Paying interest on debt is an interesting one, you could use legislation to limit the amount banks can charge. But no one would loan if they couldn't receive interest, they would just invest in shops instead

Is this another thread with some big (stupid) proclamations devoid of actual evidence and reason where you mostly ignore all commentary?

Ihavenofingerprints wrote:

Thomas Eshuis wrote:I think the notion of interest and debt is a far greater detriment to society than money will ever be.

They are inherent in a monetary system though. Receiving interest is no different to investing in a shop, you just get a much higher return from the shop investment. Debt is just agreeing to pay someone at a later date, it's impossible to remove.

I meant the combination of interest with debts.
You're loaning X amount of money and have to return X+1.
In other words you have to return more money than you received.

Ihavenofingerprints wrote:Paying interest on debt is an interesting one, you could use legislation to limit the amount banks can charge. But no one would loan if they couldn't receive interest, they would just invest in shops instead

Yea, I'm not claiming we can get rid of the system, just that the debt+interest concept is bigger problem than money itself.

Veenet wrote:It seems impossible because its so deeply rooted into the people in the entire planets system. But we have to think of a new way of doing things. The technology is there. Its just the monetary system holding us back and causing war, famine and destroying the environment and turning us all into slaves to the people who control the monetary system.

As with your thread on eliminating the "rulers" who "control" us, this is an absurdly simplistic wish.

"The current way of doing things is far from perfect." is a sentiment that will meet with very little disagreement from most members here. That is not the issue.

The issue is - as with your assertion that governments should be abolished - that you have failed actually define the alternative that you propose and outline some pathway by which we could transition to that alternative. A serviceable analogy might be that it is fairly useless to merely observe that the place in which we find ourselves is - to a greater or lesser extent - disagreeable; tell us where you think we should go and how you think we should get there and we can have a conversation.

So far, the pseudo-anarchist fantasies you have been presenting to us during your time here - replace government with teh Interwebz, "get rid" of the monetary system - have been so laughably devoid of substantive content that a casual reader might reasonably form the opinion that you are just trolling this forum with a parody of genuine anti-establishment views.

If we get rid of it, will my overdraft disappear?

If the money system is supposed to represent an I-owe-you for work actually done, then it is severely flawed when high up CEO can make in one hour the same amount their slaving hourly workers make in a year, when the "owner" of some "intellectual property" can profit indefinitely of a work performed once, and so on. I don't say that we need to do away with the money system, but that the distribution of wealth based on actual work done seems so far out of balance that many people are a form of virtual slave to others who have the financial capability to lobby and ensure that things don't change.

this..

It is a simplistic way of thinking and i don't have the answers. I wish I had a perfect alternative. It is quite easy to see that the monetary system is holding us back and is deeply flawed and will never work. All i know is that is will never work in the long run so change is inevitable although highly unlikely we would see it in our lifetime.

The main problem with the monetary system is that it can never be ethical. If a shop owner knows his mars bar costs 5 cent more than his friend's shop down the road, he would be failing business wise to tell the customer that. if a leading official sitting on the council of foreign relations knows that a particular policy they are thinking of applying will loose his company millions of dollars, he would be failing monetary system wise to apply the policy even if the policy would save millions of lives.

Why live in an unethical backwards system that causes 90% of the worlds problems just because it's the simplest way of trading?

If we get rid of it, will my overdraft disappear?

Yes it will.

If you want an alternative "system", although this is highly floured, the only one I can think of at the moment is this.

Everyone is entitled to anything they want. You can have any car you want, go on any holiday you want. All you have to do to get it is put your request in to the relevant section/company and the speed at which you receive it is based upon the amount of work and the importance of the work or "man hours" you have contributed. So the new way of trading in effect is "man hours" and importance of the work you've done.

So long as you get to decide what's important, that's good for you, eh?

Veenet wrote:If the money system is supposed to represent an I-owe-you for work actually done, then it is severely flawed when high up CEO can make in one hour the same amount their slaving hourly workers make in a year, when the "owner" of some "intellectual property" can profit indefinitely of a work performed once, and so on.

I take it that you're nowhere near the CEO end of that spectrum?

Let me tell you something about value of work.

I am a network engineer. When there is a fault on one of my networks, it stops two thousand people from working. Every man-hour I spend resolving the problem is worth at least two thousand man-hours. See how that works?

Veenet wrote:I don't say that we need to do away with the money system, but that the distribution of wealth based on actual work done seems so far out of balance that many people are a form of virtual slave to others who have the financial capability to lobby and ensure that things don't change.

this..

It is a simplistic way of thinking and i don't have the answers. I wish I had a perfect alternative. It is quite easy to see that the monetary system is holding us back and is deeply flawed and will never work. All i know is that is will never work in the long run so change is inevitable although highly unlikely we would see it in our lifetime.

The main problem with the monetary system is that it can never be ethical. If a shop owner knows his mars bar costs 5 cent more than his friend's shop down the road, he would be failing business wise to tell the customer that.

What the hell are you on about? He already tells the customers what his goods cost. Its up to the customer to compare his price with his competitors.

Veenet wrote: if a leading official sitting on the council of foreign relations knows that a particular policy they are thinking of applying will loose his company millions of dollars, he would be failing monetary system wise to apply the policy even if the policy would save millions of lives.

Why live in an unethical backwards system that causes 90% of the worlds problems just because it's the simplest way of trading?

You're confusing policy decision based on conflict of interest with what you imagine to be a faulty system of portable value.

laklak wrote:

The_Metatron wrote:So long as you get to decide what's important, that's good for you, eh?

Yep. Shame it doesn't work out that way. I don't see why they can't rejigger the matrix to let us all have our own little world where we're The Grand Exalted Poobah.

Bad programming.