Positive Money - Cranks?

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Re: Positive Money - Cranks?

#61  Postby Panderos » Feb 22, 2014 12:40 am

Sure the wealth gains of history are real - due to infrastructure, technology, education and what not.

The question of 'what money is' is about as less interesting than 'what is life?' It's a definition, people can define it anyway they want. What I'm most interested in is how the different accounts - the numbers - in the banking system relate to each other. Once you know how it works you can label it up how you like and work out the implications.
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Re: Positive Money - Cranks?

#62  Postby infiniteentropy » Feb 22, 2014 8:45 am

After hearing about positive money and talking about it with a colleague he suggested I read the following book
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Grip-Death-Slavery-Destructive-Economics/dp/1897766408/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1393057552&sr=1-1&keywords=grip+of+death

I'm only on the first chapter, very eye opening, I must find out about the author's background. So far what I've read is similar to what positive money say.
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Re: Positive Money - Cranks?

#63  Postby UndercoverElephant » Feb 22, 2014 10:08 am

Thommo wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote:As I said before, I know somebody who was studying for a doctorate in economics when I introduced her to these ideas, and it was news to her. She was shocked.


I was pretty shocked that time you linked it the world ending in, when was it 2012? It must be several years later now and shock has faded to bemusement.


Ha! I never claimed the world would end in 2012 (I could say plenty more about that topic, but this is certainly not the right thread and probably not the right board.) I did say that the economic meltdown of 2008 was the beginning of the end of western civilisation though. Living standards are headed downwards now. That's because peak oil is going to make "recovery" from the financial meltdown impossible. We are living through a strange "limbo" time where the powers that be try to maintain the illusion that everything is going to be alright, while they loot the system for hard assets before it all goes bang again.

PositiveMoney are just exposing what the banks really are, and how deeply they parasitise the rest of society.
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Re: Positive Money - Cranks?

#64  Postby UndercoverElephant » Feb 22, 2014 10:14 am

infiniteentropy wrote:After hearing about positive money and talking about it with a colleague he suggested I read the following book
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Grip-Death-Slavery-Destructive-Economics/dp/1897766408/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1393057552&sr=1-1&keywords=grip+of+death

I'm only on the first chapter, very eye opening, I must find out about the author's background. So far what I've read is similar to what positive money say.


Cheers for posting that. There's a couple of other books come up at the bottom of the page that are also directly relevant. It seems that awareness of this issue is building. The more people who know about it, the better.
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Re: Positive Money - Cranks?

#65  Postby Thommo » Feb 22, 2014 10:37 am

UndercoverElephant wrote:
Thommo wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote:As I said before, I know somebody who was studying for a doctorate in economics when I introduced her to these ideas, and it was news to her. She was shocked.


I was pretty shocked that time you linked it the world ending in, when was it 2012? It must be several years later now and shock has faded to bemusement.


Ha! I never claimed the world would end in 2012 (I could say plenty more about that topic, but this is certainly not the right thread and probably not the right board.) I did say that the economic meltdown of 2008 was the beginning of the end of western civilisation though.


Yes, that was your revised position come 2013 as I recall. Even in 2010 you were still predicting that 2012 would be "an unusual year" in terms of the end of civilisation.

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/gener ... 12#p119360

The earlier predictions going back to the RDF were even less measured, although digging them out now with the archive not being directly searchable would be a huge pain.

But I don't want to debate this, I just think that other members deserve a heads up as to how deep this rabbit hole goes, because it probably isn't readily apparent that your view of banking is intertwined with your supernaturalism and belief that civilisation has already collapsed in line with a Mayan prophecy, at least to the casual observer.
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Re: Positive Money - Cranks?

#66  Postby UndercoverElephant » Feb 22, 2014 11:45 am

Thommo wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote:
Thommo wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote:As I said before, I know somebody who was studying for a doctorate in economics when I introduced her to these ideas, and it was news to her. She was shocked.


I was pretty shocked that time you linked it the world ending in, when was it 2012? It must be several years later now and shock has faded to bemusement.


Ha! I never claimed the world would end in 2012 (I could say plenty more about that topic, but this is certainly not the right thread and probably not the right board.) I did say that the economic meltdown of 2008 was the beginning of the end of western civilisation though.


Yes, that was your revised position come 2013 as I recall. Even in 2010 you were still predicting that 2012 would be "an unusual year" in terms of the end of civilisation.


And it was. The importance of certain events - turning points in history - are often only clear when they are firmly in the rear view mirror. Right now a lot of people actually believe we're on the road to recovery from the events of 2008. We are not. A lot of people also believe Peak Oil turned out to be a myth. They're wrong too. There are also, I suspect, quite a large number of people who sense in their gut that something is deeply wrong with the society they belong to, but can't quite put their finger on what it is. Give it a few more years and things will start to become clearer.


The earlier predictions going back to the RDF were even less measured, although digging them out now with the archive not being directly searchable would be a huge pain.


And I have now had 12 years to reflect on what originally happened to me, and what I have learned from the whole series of events that have happened to the world and in my own personal life since then. I'm happy to discuss this if you really want to, but I'd rather not do so in this thread.


But I don't want to debate this, I just think that other members deserve a heads up as to how deep this rabbit hole goes,


That rabbit hole is bottomless.


because it probably isn't readily apparent that your view of banking is intertwined with your supernaturalism and belief that civilisation has already collapsed in line with a Mayan prophecy, at least to the casual observer.


No, there is no connection between those things. My views on banking are to do with empirical facts and things like politics and economics which are entirely unaffected by naturalism/supernaturalism or any of my personal beliefs about those things. And civilisation clearly hasn't collapsed. It is, on the other hand, fatally compromised. But that happened in 2008 rather than 2012. Other things happened in 2012, but I'd really appreciate it if we stick to discussing banking in this thread!
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Re: Positive Money - Cranks?

#67  Postby minininja » Feb 22, 2014 12:54 pm

:popcorn:
[Disclaimer - if this is comes across like I think I know what I'm talking about, I want to make it clear that I don't. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down]
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Re: Positive Money - Cranks?

#68  Postby Panderos » Mar 14, 2014 1:25 pm

The Bank of England has confirmed how banking/central banking works.

Bank of England wrote:Where does money come from? In the modern economy, most money takes the form of bank deposits. But how those bank deposits are created is often misunderstood. The principal way in which they are created is through commercial banks making loans: whenever a bank makes a loan, it creates a deposit in the borrower’s bank account, thereby creating new money.


I can't pretend to understand it all but Frances Coppola says this is not trivial..

Frances Coppola wrote:..it is a comprehensive and clearly-written guide...And it is controversial. It rejects conventional theories of bank lending and money creation

Frances Coppola wrote:But if there is one lesson that should be drawn from this, it is that fiat money systems simply do not operate in the way that classical economic textbooks describe.
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Re: Positive Money - Cranks?

#69  Postby UndercoverElephant » Mar 15, 2014 4:57 pm

http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publicat ... yintro.pdf

The Bank of England wrote:
When a bank makes a loan to one of its customers it simply credits the customer’s account with a higher deposit balance. At that instant, new money is created.


Hopefully this issue has now been put to bed. PositiveMoney are not cranks; they are correct.
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Re: Positive Money - Cranks?

#70  Postby Panderos » Mar 15, 2014 6:00 pm

Yes they certainly seem to be correct in that particular respect. Working out all the implications of the current system, or of any potential alternatives, is not easy though and I'd be hesitant to trust them on either.

Still, if they've had anything to do with this new BoE report, they should be commended.
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Re: Positive Money - Cranks?

#71  Postby UndercoverElephant » Mar 16, 2014 11:38 am

Panderos wrote:Yes they certainly seem to be correct in that particular respect. Working out all the implications of the current system, or of any potential alternatives, is not easy though and I'd be hesitant to trust them on either.


I'm not sure "trust" is the right word to use here. I do not doubt the integrity and motives of PositiveMoney. In that sense, I see no reason to "distrust" them (they aren't politicians, they aren't people with some sort of religious ideology to defend, they are just trying to educate people and provoke change, and have no reason to lie). However, as you suggest, the situation regarding potential alternatives is very complex and it would not be sensible to jump to any conclusions or swallow anybody-else's relatively-simple answers to complicated questions.

For example: when we look at this simply in terms of the way the UK operates, internally, then it is fairly clear that the banking sector acts as a parasite on the rest of society. But on the other hand, because London is so important as an international finance centre, the London banks are also acting as parasites on other countries, and to a certain extent the rest of the population of the UK gains from this (in tax revenues, etc...) So while from a completely neutral, global perspective, there is no case for keeping the system the way it is, the same is not quite so true from a UK-centric point of view. And this is just one example of the sort of complexities involved.
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Re: Positive Money - Cranks?

#72  Postby Panderos » Mar 16, 2014 12:00 pm

UndercoverElephant wrote:I'm not sure "trust" is the right word to use here. I do not doubt the integrity and motives of PositiveMoney. In that sense, I see no reason to "distrust" them (they aren't politicians, they aren't people with some sort of religious ideology to defend, they are just trying to educate people and provoke change, and have no reason to lie). However, as you suggest, the situation regarding potential alternatives is very complex and it would not be sensible to jump to any conclusions or swallow anybody-else's relatively-simple answers to complicated questions.

Sure, it's not really their motivations, although I'd prefer they didn't talk about inequality and other issues that could be considered partisan. It's their competence. That's not meant to be a sleight - as you say, it is not trivial to work out the implications of the various possible systems.

UndercoverElephant wrote:For example: when we look at this simply in terms of the way the UK operates, internally, then it is fairly clear that the banking sector acts as a parasite on the rest of society. But on the other hand, because London is so important as an international finance centre, the London banks are also acting as parasites on other countries, and to a certain extent the rest of the population of the UK gains from this (in tax revenues, etc...) So while from a completely neutral, global perspective, there is no case for keeping the system the way it is, the same is not quite so true from a UK-centric point of view. And this is just one example of the sort of complexities involved.

Yes. Although I suspect it's far more parasitic on us than the rest, given it was us that bailed them out, and it's our smart people going to work in the banks instead of elsewhere.
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Re: Positive Money - Cranks?

#73  Postby Clive Durdle » Mar 16, 2014 12:43 pm

http://sacred-economics.com/wp-content/ ... k-text.pdf

http://www.lietaer.com/2010/03/the-worgl-experiment/

In 1932, in the midst of the Great Depression, the small town of Wörgl in Austria successfully experimented with its own local currency (in the form of a stamp scrip). Based on the thinking of Silvio Gesell, an early 20th-century economist, and designed to stimulate the local economy, the new currency helped put the population back to work, and inspired many other communities to want to follow its example, until the experiment was abruptly terminated by Austria’s Central Bank in 1933. The following is the story of the “miracle of Wörgl” as told in The Future of Money (pp. 153-155).
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Re: Positive Money - Cranks?

#74  Postby GT2211 » Mar 17, 2014 6:06 am

UndercoverElephant wrote:http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/Documents/quarterlybulletin/2014/qb14q1prereleasemoneyintro.pdf

The Bank of England wrote:
When a bank makes a loan to one of its customers it simply credits the customer’s account with a higher deposit balance. At that instant, new money is created.


Hopefully this issue has now been put to bed. PositiveMoney are not cranks; they are correct.

No, they are still cranks.
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Re: Positive Money - Cranks?

#75  Postby Clive Durdle » Mar 17, 2014 10:38 pm

All this harrumphing is quite fascinating but it sounds like the emperor's courtiers extolling his wondrous clothing!
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Re: Positive Money - Cranks?

#76  Postby UndercoverElephant » Mar 18, 2014 5:40 pm

GT2211 wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote:http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/Documents/quarterlybulletin/2014/qb14q1prereleasemoneyintro.pdf

The Bank of England wrote:
When a bank makes a loan to one of its customers it simply credits the customer’s account with a higher deposit balance. At that instant, new money is created.


Hopefully this issue has now been put to bed. PositiveMoney are not cranks; they are correct.

No, they are still cranks.


Nice assertion backed up with nothing - no evidence, no argument, nothing.

Or are people cranks just because you deem them to be so, for no reason whatsoever? :roll:
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Re: Positive Money - Cranks?

#77  Postby Panderos » Mar 27, 2014 8:51 pm

UndercoverElephant wrote:
GT2211 wrote:No, they are still cranks.

Nice assertion backed up with nothing - no evidence, no argument, nothing.

Or are people cranks just because you deem them to be so, for no reason whatsoever? :roll:

Care to comment GT?
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Re: Positive Money - Cranks?

#78  Postby UndercoverElephant » Mar 29, 2014 9:08 pm

http://www.positivemoney.org/2014/03/of ... k-england/


Now the Bank of England, in its 320th year, has officially acknowledged that the tosh that is taught to economics students the world over is indeed tosh. Banks don’t relend deposits. Deposits are liabilities that languish on banks’ books, not assets that can be lent out. There is no money multiplier that permits policy makers to determine how much money is to be made available to the economy by dictating reserve requirements. Central banks cannot even reliably stimulate lending for production to promote economic renewal by flooding the system with reserves, since reserves cannot be lent out and deposits created by measures such as quantitative easing may be used to pay off debt rather than to invest in production.

The sneering naysayers who persistently attacked Positive Money over the first two or three years of our campaign can now be roundly trounced by this official corroboration (if, indeed, there are any still remaining to be trounced).


Hey Mr Blackadder...they're talking about YOU. :smoke:
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Re: Positive Money - Cranks?

#79  Postby UndercoverElephant » May 01, 2014 12:56 pm

Financial Times joins the calls for a revolution to end parasitical banking:

http://www.positivemoney.org/2014/04/st ... ls-reform/
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Re: Positive Money - Cranks?

#80  Postby Panderos » May 01, 2014 1:55 pm

Good stuff, although there are various ways to reform, some better than others. Given how much terrible economics is spoken around this issue, I don't have that much faith that we'll get the reforms right, if we ever get them at all.

One possibility I want to look into more is the Chicago Plan which also involves paying back large amounts of government debt in one magical wave of a wand.



In addition I am personally skeptical that much money needs to be created at all, and so it may be that all this talk of free money for the government could lead to ruining otherwise very sensible reforms.
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