Post-Work Society?

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Re: Post-Work Society?

#41  Postby felltoearth » Mar 16, 2018 11:36 pm

jamest wrote:There are some jobs which are utterly immune to robot takeover. For instance, any psychology-based job, since a robot can never know what it is like to have emotions.

Are you sure about that? If so, why?
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Re: Post-Work Society?

#42  Postby Keep It Real » Mar 16, 2018 11:40 pm

I currantly think the arts (fictional literature; Music; Scupture etc) should be forbidden to AI so that we humans have some permanent avenues for expression/use/productivity/worth.
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Re: Post-Work Society?

#43  Postby The_Piper » Mar 16, 2018 11:59 pm

The cat's out of the bag with that already. :)
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Re: Post-Work Society?

#44  Postby Matthew Shute » Mar 17, 2018 12:08 am

Keep It Real wrote:I currantly think the arts (fictional literature; Music; Scupture etc) should be forbidden to AI so that we humans have some permanent avenues for expression/use/productivity/worth.


That sounds unenforceable, though, and for all we know we could be depriving ourselves of some really great art/music. Such might seem far-fetched with current AI technology, but for the AIs of the coming decades...? Also, how does an AI writing novels or composing music prevent us from expressing ourselves in those ways? It might become gradually harder to make money at it, I'll concede, but I suspect that there'll be a market for art and stories made by actual humans (v1.0) as long as there are still humans (v1.0) around.

The_Piper wrote:The cat's out of the bag with that already. :)


True. There's already a fair bit of AI-composed music out there, for example.
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Re: Post-Work Society?

#45  Postby jamest » Mar 17, 2018 12:34 am

felltoearth wrote:
jamest wrote:There are some jobs which are utterly immune to robot takeover. For instance, any psychology-based job, since a robot can never know what it is like to have emotions.

Are you sure about that? If so, why?

I watched/read something last year about 'robot doctors' which given sufficient info can potentially diagnose and prognose as well as any human doctor. I have no essential objection to that technology, regarding physical complaints.

Indeed, at a base level, merely accepting that the client is 'depressed' might be sufficient to prescribe anti-depressants. Likewise for anxiety (the worrying danger being of course that the robot would automatically prescribe anything to anyone reporting such things). That's about the full extent of a robot's potential involvement into the emotional life of a human: at base-level.

The human emotions are complex. Qualitative. That is, non-quantitative. Indeed, they're so complex that a fear can be completely hidden from physical analysis even though it may reside deep within the psyche. For instance, one's fear of flying is only measurable on a physical scale whilst the subject is actually on a plane. If they're not on a plane, then you cannot measure it because there will be no physical symptoms of such, but the fear is there regardless. Also, the quantitative value of this fear (whilst on a plane) is immeasurable regardless. For instance, how would a robot-psychologist measure the depth and breadth of such fear? 10 if you shoot the pilot to prevent take-off? 5 if you merely piss in your pants? An 8 if you go and piss on the pilot!?

The bottom-line is that robots depend upon logical/mathematical data to function, and the depth and breadth of the human emotions are exempt from quantitative analysis.

We're not robots. We don't know how to make machines that are not robots. Simply because we ourselves are unable to analyse our own emotions quantitatively. This has nothing to do with our current level of knowledge, because these problems persist in principle to that extent that reason itself must disassociate itself from 'feelings', even if/when those feelings wholeheartedly worship said reason.

We have BOTH reason and emotion to guide our ship. Computers/robots ONLY have reason.

... That's "why?".
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Re: Post-Work Society?

#46  Postby jamest » Mar 17, 2018 12:36 am

Matthew Shute wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:I currantly think the arts (fictional literature; Music; Scupture etc) should be forbidden to AI so that we humans have some permanent avenues for expression/use/productivity/worth.


That sounds unenforceable, though, and for all we know we could be depriving ourselves of some really great art/music. Such might seem far-fetched with current AI technology, but for the AIs of the coming decades...? Also, how does an AI writing novels or composing music prevent us from expressing ourselves in those ways? It might become gradually harder to make money at it, I'll concede, but I suspect that there'll be a market for art and stories made by actual humans (v1.0) as long as there are still humans (v1.0) around.

The_Piper wrote:The cat's out of the bag with that already. :)


True. There's already a fair bit of AI-composed music out there, for example.

You can program a computer to give any ordered or random signal/output, completely contingent upon the ordered input. That doesn't make it 'art', even if pretty.

ETA: Indeed, the point of contemporary/modern art is to "make one think" about the artist's intentions, and computers do NOT have intent. So, fuck that bollocks of an idea - that computers can be artists - since they themselves are neither responsible for their output nor the fact that they want 'you' to think.

I've heard a lot of bollocks in my life, but the notion that computers can be artistic is a propagandistic example of fundamental materialism at work, nothing else. If you buy into that bollocks, then buy one of my robes. I'll adorn it with multi-coloured feathers.

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Re: Post-Work Society?

#47  Postby The_Piper » Mar 17, 2018 12:52 am

Call it by a different name than art if you want but it's real and will improve with time. With the usual caveat, "if we don't blow ourselves up first". 3D printing for sculptures. There are already stories made by computer, I just learned. That's a little surprising.
Humans made computers, and there's no reason to feel degraded by having computers do work for us. You might say we're clever enough to have "beaten" evolution.
It's not so different in my mind to graphic design, printers, word processors, drum machines, etc.
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Re: Post-Work Society?

#48  Postby Matthew Shute » Mar 17, 2018 1:00 am

jamest wrote:
Matthew Shute wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:I currantly think the arts (fictional literature; Music; Scupture etc) should be forbidden to AI so that we humans have some permanent avenues for expression/use/productivity/worth.


That sounds unenforceable, though, and for all we know we could be depriving ourselves of some really great art/music. Such might seem far-fetched with current AI technology, but for the AIs of the coming decades...? Also, how does an AI writing novels or composing music prevent us from expressing ourselves in those ways? It might become gradually harder to make money at it, I'll concede, but I suspect that there'll be a market for art and stories made by actual humans (v1.0) as long as there are still humans (v1.0) around.

The_Piper wrote:The cat's out of the bag with that already. :)


True. There's already a fair bit of AI-composed music out there, for example.

You can program a computer to give any ordered or random signal/output, completely contingent upon the ordered input. That doesn't make it 'art', even if pretty.


I take it that you're thinking of relatively simple computer programs here, though, which is the reason AI art sounds far-fetched in the first place. We don't know how far the technology will go. One of the long term holy grails of AI is reverse-engineering the human brain and then using the principles of its architecture and functioning to build artificial brains that are equivalent, just more and faster. Ideally, embodied, with a full range of senses, the ability to form memories like we do, and all the rest. Now, I appreciate that you don't think brains even exist, much less have anything to do with art, but such considerations will become irrelevant if we ever get close to anything like the above, and such entities produce books and music. Because that's when the art critics and music-listeners weigh in and actually decide whether something is art or not.

ETA: Indeed, the point of contemporary/modern art is to "make one think" about the artist's intentions, and computers do NOT have intent. So, fuck that bollocks of an idea - that computers can be artists - since they themselves are neither responsible for their output nor the fact that they want 'you' to think.

I've heard a lot of bollocks in my life, but the notion that computers can be artistic is a propagandistic example of fundamental materialism at work, nothing else.


Again, I'm not necessarily talking about any classical computer, even, but AI in general. I think you're rather hampered here by your metaphysical blinkers and a general lack of imagination as to what technology could look like in another 50 - 100 years, say.
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Re: Post-Work Society?

#49  Postby jamest » Mar 17, 2018 1:08 am

The_Piper wrote:Call it by a different name than art if you want but it's real and will improve with time.

What I said previous was not dictated by what I want, but by reason acknowledging the difference between itself and emotion. Also, how 'pretty' (appealing) something is does not suffice to define it as art. I'm not denying the fact that our ability to program computers gives them improved abilities to impress our eyes; I'm merely denying the propagandistic physicalist bollocks that fails to recognise the meaning of what an artist is, which will never encompass any machine, in principle, for reasons mentioned; thus absolutely denying that any computer will ever be an artist in principle.


Humans made computers, and there's no reason to feel degraded by having computers do work for us. You might say we're clever enough to have "beaten" evolution.

Please do not infer from my posts here that there is a reason for 'humans' to feel degraded. The whole point is that computers should not be 'upgraded', if you get my gist. Ever.
Last edited by jamest on Mar 17, 2018 1:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Post-Work Society?

#50  Postby jamest » Mar 17, 2018 1:20 am

Matthew Shute wrote:
I take it that you're thinking of relatively simple computer programs here, though, which is the reason AI art sounds far-fetched in the first place. We don't know how far the technology will go.

I've used the terms 'in principle' and 'absolutely', here. This has got nothing to do with sci-fi nor then current levels of knowledge. Deal with that, or leave your head in the sand. I'm not your master, I'm just advising you how it is.
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Re: Post-Work Society?

#51  Postby felltoearth » Mar 17, 2018 2:30 am

jamest wrote:
felltoearth wrote:
jamest wrote:There are some jobs which are utterly immune to robot takeover. For instance, any psychology-based job, since a robot can never know what it is like to have emotions.

Are you sure about that? If so, why?

I watched/read something last year about 'robot doctors' which given sufficient info can potentially diagnose and prognose as well as any human doctor. I have no essential objection to that technology, regarding physical complaints.

Indeed, at a base level, merely accepting that the client is 'depressed' might be sufficient to prescribe anti-depressants. Likewise for anxiety (the worrying danger being of course that the robot would automatically prescribe anything to anyone reporting such things). That's about the full extent of a robot's potential involvement into the emotional life of a human: at base-level.

The human emotions are complex. Qualitative. That is, non-quantitative. Indeed, they're so complex that a fear can be completely hidden from physical analysis even though it may reside deep within the psyche. For instance, one's fear of flying is only measurable on a physical scale whilst the subject is actually on a plane. If they're not on a plane, then you cannot measure it because there will be no physical symptoms of such, but the fear is there regardless. Also, the quantitative value of this fear (whilst on a plane) is immeasurable regardless. For instance, how would a robot-psychologist measure the depth and breadth of such fear? 10 if you shoot the pilot to prevent take-off? 5 if you merely piss in your pants? An 8 if you go and piss on the pilot!?

The bottom-line is that robots depend upon logical/mathematical data to function, and the depth and breadth of the human emotions are exempt from quantitative analysis.

We're not robots. We don't know how to make machines that are not robots. Simply because we ourselves are unable to analyse our own emotions quantitatively. This has nothing to do with our current level of knowledge, because these problems persist in principle to that extent that reason itself must disassociate itself from 'feelings', even if/when those feelings wholeheartedly worship said reason.

We have BOTH reason and emotion to guide our ship. Computers/robots ONLY have reason.

... That's "why?".


Reason and emotion are both cognitive processes. That’s why CBT works, for example. Why would AI not be able to incorporate emotional cognition?
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Re: Post-Work Society?

#52  Postby The_Piper » Mar 17, 2018 3:49 am

jamest wrote:
The_Piper wrote:Call it by a different name than art if you want but it's real and will improve with time.

What I said previous was not dictated by what I want, but by reason acknowledging the difference between itself and emotion. Also, how 'pretty' (appealing) something is does not suffice to define it as art. I'm not denying the fact that our ability to program computers gives them improved abilities to impress our eyes; I'm merely denying the propagandistic physicalist bollocks that fails to recognise the meaning of what an artist is, which will never encompass any machine, in principle, for reasons mentioned; thus absolutely denying that any computer will ever be an artist in principle.


Humans made computers, and there's no reason to feel degraded by having computers do work for us. You might say we're clever enough to have "beaten" evolution.

Please do not infer from my posts here that there is a reason for 'humans' to feel degraded. The whole point is that computers should not be 'upgraded', if you get my gist. Ever.

Computers (and technology in general) have the potential both to be the end of us, or to help propel us to the stars, so to speak. We all know this but I like to be understood. I'm glad I'm not the one deciding what to do about potentially dangerous technology, but I'm quite eager to see what we the humans learn next, so I guess I want all of the upgrades we can get. You'll still have your frozen badgers, and I'll have the robotic knee implants that I could really use. :mrgreen:
The question of what makes art is always being asked. If a computer makes a song that causes me to have an emotional reaction similar to one brought about by a human song, I don't see the difference between that and art, as it relates to me.
jamest wrote:
Please do not infer from my posts here that there is a reason for 'humans' to feel degraded. The whole point is that computers should not be 'upgraded', if you get my gist. Ever.

No I didn't think you did, KIR seemed to imply that in his comment.
I currantly think the arts (fictional literature; Music; Scupture etc) should be forbidden to AI so that we humans have some permanent avenues for expression/use/productivity/worth.
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Re: Post-Work Society?

#53  Postby romansh » Mar 17, 2018 4:45 am

Keep It Real wrote:I currantly think the arts (fictional literature; Music; Scupture etc) should be forbidden to AI so that we humans have some permanent avenues for expression/use/productivity/worth.

Why (what are the reasons for) human beings doing art? To make money? Some people are just driven that way?

An AI may also be also just driven to produce "art". An AI programmer may just be driven to program "art" in an algorythm?
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Re: Post-Work Society?

#54  Postby Keep It Real » Mar 17, 2018 10:00 pm

Keep It Real wrote:I currantly think the arts (fictional literature; Music; Scupture etc) should be forbidden to AI so that we humans have some permanent avenues for expression/use/productivity/worth.


This post probably should be in the player hating thread actually. If humans felt universally inferior to robots in all departments (perceived inferiority) that would surely be unpleasant. Methinks them'd be smashed to pieces through player hating.
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Re: Post-Work Society?

#55  Postby Scot Dutchy » Mar 18, 2018 12:58 pm

I think when computers start designing and making computers will be pivotal moment.
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Re: Post-Work Society?

#56  Postby lpetrich » Mar 27, 2018 11:56 pm

jamest wrote:There are some jobs which are utterly immune to robot takeover. For instance, any psychology-based job, since a robot can never know what it is like to have emotions. Metaphysicists too. ;)

I wouldn't want to be too sure about that. The robot could construct a mental model of emotions from its experiences with us. That's what we do with everything around us, though we often do that unconsciously.
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Re: Post-Work Society?

#57  Postby tuco » Apr 18, 2019 6:13 am

Will AI kill developing world growth?

Artificial intelligence (AI) could displace millions of jobs in the future, damaging growth in developing regions such as Africa, says Ian Goldin, professor of globalisation and development at Oxford University.

Some argue that AI will create as many new jobs as those lost to robots, and that we shouldn't worry too much. But I believe that those new jobs will be concentrated in certain parts of the developed world, and that the developing world will miss out.

This matters most acutely in poorer nations that have used their relatively low-cost labour force as a first stage in catching up with the developed economies, examples being China, Thailand and Vietnam.

Most of the jobs at threat in such places would be of the semi-skilled variety. But the fact that poor countries also tend to suffer shortages of highly skilled labour could further undermine their competitiveness.


https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47852589


---

as a side note, is this what Jack Ma was alluding to? If so I take back 1/2 of the lol but I would still lol at professional passion of a factory worker.
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Re: Post-Work Society?

#58  Postby tuco » Jul 06, 2019 6:30 am

Can robots help humans get more jobs?

In a place, like Japan, where workers are desperately needed, the government is hoping that robots could be the answer.

But some developers believe that instead of replacing us robots could help get more people into work.

BBC's Population Reporter Stephanie Hegarty went to Tokyo to meet them.


https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia- ... -more-jobs

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Setting free?

But what about those Amazon workers who love to shuffle boxes around? ;)

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Re: Post-Work Society?

#59  Postby newolder » Jul 06, 2019 10:21 am

romansh wrote:... An AI programmer may just be driven to program "art" in an algorythm?

From which I surmise that the arythmic arts are better served by algorithms. :think:
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Re: Post-Work Society?

#60  Postby LucidFlight » Jul 06, 2019 1:36 pm

If former vice-president to Bill Clinton played drums, would he make Al Gore rhythms?

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