"There are no unemployed people"

Philip Hammond

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Re: "There are no unemployed people"

#41  Postby Scot Dutchy » Oct 22, 2018 3:26 pm

Thommo wrote:Britain, unlike France, has a reputation in the EU for being one of the only countries to diligently stick to EU dictats.


Another opinion given as fact. Wtf has that to do with the price of milk?

Where is ONS data trusted? The EU has to accept it like it it did with the Greek data when it applied to join.

So all the reports on the massaging of figures in 2017 are all wrong?

You have to think at national level. This smoke screen you are throwing up regarding EU is of no point. ONS is a corrupt organisation just giving what the tory government wants.
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Re: "There are no unemployed people"

#42  Postby Thommo » Oct 22, 2018 3:32 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Thommo wrote:Britain, unlike France, has a reputation in the EU for being one of the only countries to diligently stick to EU dictats.


Another opinion given as fact. Wtf has that to do with the price of milk?


It was relevant in the reply to Alan B from which you've ripped it. He suggested the UK would just ignore EU rules. In fact the UK has a reputation for following the rules.

Given I wasn't replying to you, and you post opinions as fact about thirty five times before breakfast each day, I don't think I'll be indulging you further in this instance.

Scot Dutchy wrote:Where is ONS data trusted? The EU has to accept it like it it did with the Greek data when it applied to join.


In the EU, by the member states and its bodies. You won't find complaints about the ONS fabricating data.

For some reason you think you can claim otherwise without source, despite this being a strong claim, based on your own opinions. I know you won't carry the burden of proof that you've generated (after all, you've expended thousands of words in this thread without producing the merest sniff of evidence that ONS data collection differs from the rest of the EU or is suspect in any way), so there's probably little point discussing it further. I spent around two hours providing you with a fully sourced and quoted reply already this afternoon and you didn't even give it a cursory reading, so let's not pollute the economics section of the board with a string of back and forth.
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Re: "There are no unemployed people"

#43  Postby Scot Dutchy » Oct 22, 2018 3:37 pm

Thommo wrote:It was relevant in the reply to Alan B from which you've ripped it. He suggested the UK would just ignore EU rules. In fact the UK has a reputation for following the rules.


Evidence. Nobody trusts the UK anymore.

Here we have it:

For some reason you think you can claim otherwise without source, despite this being a strong claim, based on your own opinions. I know you won't carry the burden of proof that you've generated, so there's probably little point discussing it futher. I spent around two hours providing you with a fully sourced and quoted reply already this afternoon and you didn't even give it a cursory reading, so let's not pollute the economics section of the board with a string of back and forth.


It was not fully sourced but full of your opinions. Butt hurt? Big way.

In the EU, by the member states and its bodies. You won't find complaints about the ONS fabricating data.


More lies. Evidence?

No point discussing with someone moving the goal posts around claiming unsupported evidence.
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Re: "There are no unemployed people"

#44  Postby Thommo » Oct 22, 2018 3:44 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:Butt hurt? Big way.


I'm not sure that this childishness adds much. I hope you feel better for getting that out of your system, I guess? :dunno:

Scot Dutchy wrote:
In the EU, by the member states and its bodies. You won't find complaints about the ONS fabricating data.


More lies. Evidence?


Actually, that was your claim that the UK is getting up to all this stuff, and that I was correcting. You should be providing evidence.

I guess this hypocrisy doesn't bother you. But don't think it goes unnoticed by the wider membership.

Scot Dutchy wrote:No point discussing with someone moving the goal posts around claiming unsupported evidence.


Well, you can sure say that again:
Scot Dutchy wrote:Why does not ONS use the accepted definition of unemployed as used in the EU.

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Thommo wrote: This standard is the guidelines of the International Labour Organization.


What a load of rubbish. Quoting an organisation that nobody uses.
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Re: "There are no unemployed people"

#45  Postby Scot Dutchy » Oct 22, 2018 3:54 pm

I have provided more than enough evidence. FFS How many reports do you need.
Like this:
Sparkling employment figures mask real picture of UK economy

There are two ways in which the Office for National Statistics calculates unemployment. First, there is the claimant count, which picks up the number of people out of work and claiming jobseeker’s allowance or universal credit. In the spring of 2017, the claimant count stood at 785,000.

The claimant count fell out of favour in the 1980s, however, when the then Conservative government made more than 30 changes to the way in which it was calculated, almost all of them leading to a lower total. Greater attention was paid to a broader measure of unemployment based on criteria laid down by the International Labour Organisation. This second method states that a person is unemployed if he or she doesn’t have a job, has looked for work in the past four weeks and can start within a fortnight. This methodology tops up the claimant count with another 735,000 people giving a total of just over 1.5m.

The Sheffield Hallam researchers – Christina Beatty, Steve Fothergill and Tony Gore – say a further 760,000 should be added because they are people hidden on incapacity benefits. Real unemployment, the study says, is just shy of 2.3m.


Parking people on incapacity benefits was a way of keeping the official unemployment total down in the 1980s and 1990s. Despite the population becoming gradually healthier, the number on incapacity benefits rose from 750,000 at the end of the 1970s to more than 2.5 million by the end of the 1990s. Vigorous efforts have subsequently brought the total down, but not by much.

The researchers say many of those claiming incapacity benefits would like to work, but take a dim view of their job prospects because they feel their health is too poor or their disability is too severe, or because they think the chances of finding a job are small, especially when they are in competition with fit and healthy workers likely to catch the eye of potential employers.
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Re: "There are no unemployed people"

#46  Postby Scot Dutchy » Oct 22, 2018 3:55 pm

The ILO has no influence at national level. It is entirely up to the national government how it collects data.
ILO is not compulsory but even then ONS was wrong.

Greater attention was paid to a broader measure of unemployment based on criteria laid down by the International Labour Organisation. This second method states that a person is unemployed if he or she doesn’t have a job, has looked for work in the past four weeks and can start within a fortnight. This methodology tops up the claimant count with another 735,000 people giving a total of just over 1.5m.


Fiddling and fiddling. Nobody else uses ZHC and fixed minimum contracts just the UK.
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Re: "There are no unemployed people"

#47  Postby Thommo » Oct 22, 2018 6:50 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:Nobody else uses ZHC and fixed minimum contracts just the UK.


Linked earlier:
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Re: "There are no unemployed people"

#48  Postby Scot Dutchy » Oct 23, 2018 11:30 am

Full fact.

Zero hours contracts: is the UK "the odd one out"?


Conclusion

Not all have an explicit ban, but it’s correct that most EU countries outlaw these contracts, heavily restrict them, or don’t see them widely used. The UK is one of around half a dozen European countries where zero hours contracts are both legal and fairly common.




“Zero hours contracts are not allowed in Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, Denmark, France, Germany, Hungary, Italy, Netherlands, Poland and Spain. It seems we’re the odd one out.”

Jeremy Corbyn, 16 June 2016


The ones where it is allowed are not worth talking about or maybe they are a good comparison to the UK.
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Re: "There are no unemployed people"

#49  Postby Scot Dutchy » Oct 23, 2018 11:41 am

EU: European Parliament Votes to End Use of ‘Zero Hour' Contracts

Following the submission of more than 80 petitions from workers in the 28 European Union member states complaining about abusive part-time contracts, the European Parliament passed a resolution “to end precarious employment practices,” in particular the use of part-time “zero-hour”' contracts that provide workers with few benefits and little job security.

The directive would cover self-employed workers, domestic laborers, consultants, and freelancers.

European Parliament member Kirton-Darling Jude, a U.K.-based lawmaker from the Socialists and Democrats political group and a sponsor of the resolution, said the European Commission and EU member states must enforce the EU Working Time Directive against illegal part-time contracts.
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Re: "There are no unemployed people"

#50  Postby felltoearth » Oct 23, 2018 11:42 am

We need a goal post emoji on this board.
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Re: "There are no unemployed people"

#51  Postby Scot Dutchy » Oct 23, 2018 11:44 am

felltoearth wrote:We need a goal post emoji on this board.


For yourself?
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Re: "There are no unemployed people"

#52  Postby felltoearth » Oct 23, 2018 11:48 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
felltoearth wrote:We need a goal post emoji on this board.


For yourself?

Ooo burn. Good one Scot.
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Re: "There are no unemployed people"

#53  Postby Scot Dutchy » Oct 23, 2018 11:52 am

:lol: Open goal.
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Re: "There are no unemployed people"

#54  Postby felltoearth » Oct 23, 2018 11:53 am

Scot Dutchy wrote::lol: Open goal.

:what:
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Re: "There are no unemployed people"

#55  Postby Hermit » Oct 23, 2018 12:36 pm

felltoearth wrote:We need a goal post emoji on this board.

Unfortunately American, but it does the job.

Image

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Re: "There are no unemployed people"

#56  Postby SafeAsMilk » Oct 23, 2018 1:02 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
felltoearth wrote:We need a goal post emoji on this board.


For yourself?

Image
"They call it the American dream, because you have to be asleep to believe it." -- George Carlin
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Re: "There are no unemployed people"

#57  Postby felltoearth » Oct 23, 2018 1:08 pm

SafeAsMilk wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:
felltoearth wrote:We need a goal post emoji on this board.


For yourself?

Image

That came to mind.
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Re: "There are no unemployed people"

#58  Postby SafeAsMilk » Oct 23, 2018 1:52 pm

It usually does. I mean, what's there to say about retorts that sound like someone 30 years ago making fun of lame retorts?
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Re: "There are no unemployed people"

#59  Postby Alan B » Oct 23, 2018 2:44 pm

People are unemployed or employed. That is, 'out of work' or 'in work' as defined by the EU in its various definitions.

Now, define employment 'work'. Would it include 'work with wages' and 'work without wages' (which, I think, would suit the Tory approach - it would 'reduce' the unemployment figures that are fed to the ONS. (It could be that if Brexit comes to pass, it would be a bonus for some Tories such that they could ignore any EU ruling to make ZHC illegal).

Or 'work with pay' as the only meaning for the term 'employed' as I think the Labour lot would consider.
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Re: "There are no unemployed people"

#60  Postby Thommo » Oct 23, 2018 3:29 pm

I don't think any of that is supported by the evidence Alan.

I can find no public statement of policy difference between Tories and Labour on unemployment definitions, and certainly none relating to any of the terms "work with wages" and "work without wages". The unemployment figures are produced by the ONS (in that they are responsible for both the data collection via the labour force survey, and that they compile the raw data into the form used for the final published statistics, in accordance with the internationally agreed ILO and EU standards), not fed to the ONS.

Periodically there are academic groups and studies which attempt to quantify the economic contribution and value of "invisible" work, such as childcare by parents and family and housework, that certainly is "work without wages", but there's been no significant political pressure from any side to alter official GDP figures or employment/unemployment statistics to reflect these estimates.

ETA: A UK example: https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlab ... 2016-11-10
On average men do 16 hours a week of such unpaid work, which includes adult care and child care, laundry and cleaning, to the 26 hours of unpaid work done by women a week.

The only area where men put in more unpaid work hours than women is in the provision of transport – this includes driving themselves and others around, as well as commuting to work.

When looking at economic status, full-time students do the least amount of unpaid work, while mothers on maternity leave do the most.

ONS figures for 2014 show that total unpaid work had a value of £1.01tn, equivalent to approximately 56% of Gross Domestic Product (GDP).


Some international comments and perspectives:
https://theconversation.com/womens-unpa ... tory-98110
http://www1.paho.org/hq/dmdocuments/201 ... d_work.pdf
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm ... id=2798620
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