So it's Easter today, and my kids are the only non-Mormons in the neighborhood. While all the other kids had to get up early, put on uncomfortable clothes, and get hauled off to 3+ hours of church, my kids were playing on the swing set after hunting plastic eggs in the yard for 'Spring'.

At dinner tonight my daughter asked "Daddy, is it ok to tell a lie so your friend will still be your friend?" I asked why she was asking that and she said "Well, I really like Carol and I want her to still be my friend." My daughter then related the following conversation:

Friend: "Did you go to church?".
My daughter: "Is it OK if I didn't?"
Friend: shook her head "No".
My daughter: "Um, yes, we went to church."
Friend: "I didn't see you there."
My daughter: "Um, we went to a different church."
Friend: "No you didn't, if you're in the 5th Ward, you go to our church."
My daughter: "Yeah, our church is called 'Denny's Church' (Restaurant chain + church )
My daughter: "So are we still friends?"
Friend: "I have to ask my Mom if it's OK."

We had a long conversation about honesty and being afraid of being judged, and how to avoid arguing unneccessarily. I asked if she would still want Carol to be her friend if it meant lying every day, and she said "No".

I think I defused the situation for today, but it's going to get harder later on. Has anyone else had a similar problem? For now, I'm stuck living here in a part of Utah that's essentially the Mormon "Jerusalem", and we're not Jewish.

What could work in future is to tell your daughter that when she is
asked a question she does not want to answer then she does not have
to : she just stays silent : that way she avoids having to lie to protect others
from the truth : of course it is easier said than done but even so : you must have
known Utah was a Mormon State when you moved there or is that where you were born
Are some parts of it non Mormon : if so could you not move there instead for the time being

If I could move, I would, but right now i cannot. I have talked with her about 'remaining silent', but I didn't teach her how to divert the conversation onto other topics. I'm concerned about teaching her an 'us vs. them' mentality, I'm trying to avoid doing so.

AlohaChris wrote:If I could move, I would, but right now i cannot. I have talked with her about 'remaining silent', but I didn't teach her how to divert the conversation onto other topics. I'm concerned about teaching her an 'us vs. them' mentality, I'm trying to avoid doing so.

You are not the one teaching that lesson. She is picking it up, unfortunately, from the religious teachings that the other children are receiving.

She wants to be friends, but she has learned that she cannot be unless she is viewed by her friend as one of "us".

Tough situation. Kids are cruel.

You did not mention your daughters age.

I don't see how you can escape saying 'no, it's not okay to lie so you can keep a friend'. I think it should be antithetical to the religious to perpetuate this - of course the reality is different - but think what lesson your daughter will be learning if she lies so people will stays friends. Tough situation.

Macdoc wrote:Tough situation. Kids are cruel.

You did not mention your daughters age.

Ahh, yes. She has just turned 7.

"3+ hours of church"!

Holy, lantern Jayzis! I thought it was an injustice being dragged to half an hour of that shite a week. I used to hate when I used to stay in my aunty's where her parish priest droned for a whole fucking hour. Three hours is child-abuse. Think of all the worthwhile activities could be done in that time on your day off. Why would you torture yourself and your family with that crap when there are patks, petting zoos and farms, cinemas, exhibits and fun fairs screaming out for attention?

Some monkeys are fucking dumb.

What are you doing? Complain to Carol's parents. How dare they teach her these things.

I swear to god, religion is just a big porn orgy. They just want members to come in and join the gagging and circlejerks, but anyone who's not into that is an evil little shit, aren't they?

Honestly I'd just show your child Neopets. Make online friends. They're not as selective, but they are more harmful... Though I guess a little sandpaper wouldn't hurt the wood. It'll make her stronger for the future.

maybe I can offer something that might be of practical use and has the best interestes of your daughter in mind, rather than just looking out for one's particular ideologies and maintaining the status quo, which unfortunately, in America at least, has atheists being compared to theives and rapists, especially in deeply religious communities, which I would assume your part of Utah is.

I have 2 thoughts.

Thought 1 is that you allow your children to attend the church if they want and you go with them (Most likely they will not enjoy the experience). You remind them that you think it's all nonsense (or however you want to say it) that some people believe because it makes them feel good. Let them make their own decision. If they dont want to go to church anymore, great. If they do... well that's a whole new can of worms. Just pt your foot down I guess. Explain to your daughter that its not ok to lie to get what you want (that is if you actually believe that, maybe you think it is ok to lie to get what you want, just teach her whatever morals you want to teach her) and leave it at that.

Thought 2 is to talk to Carols parents and persuade them to allow their daughter to be friends with your daughter. Put their minds at ease and show them you are a good person/parent, and that your daughter is too.

amkerman wrote:maybe I can offer something that might be of practical use and has the best interestes of your daughter in mind, rather than just looking out for one's particular ideologies and maintaining the status quo, which unfortunately, in America at least, has atheists being compared to theives and rapists, especially in deeply religious communities, which I would assume your part of Utah is.

I have 2 thoughts.

Thought 1 is that you allow your children to attend the church if they want and you go with them (Most likely they will not enjoy the experience). You remind them that you think it's all nonsense (or however you want to say it) that some people believe because it makes them feel good. Let them make their own decision. If they dont want to go to church anymore, great. If they do... well that's a whole new can of worms. Just pt your foot down I guess. Explain to your daughter that its not ok to lie to get what you want (that is if you actually believe that, maybe you think it is ok to lie to get what you want, just teach her whatever morals you want to teach her) and leave it at that.

Thought 2 is to talk to Carols parents and persuade them to allow their daughter to be friends with your daughter. Put their minds at ease and show them you are a good person/parent, and that your daughter is too.

I'm not sure if you read the OP. Church is 3+ hours! Who but a masochist would put themselves through that? Only a theist would think that was a good idea

How about a more practical appoach that makes everybody happy?
Go to the church in question, just poke your head in, take a look at the congregation, pop put again. So if anyone asks, you've been to church.
Worked for me, everybody happy, peace restored.

Bah! Peace is over-rated. I never lie about my non-belief or mask my distain of religion. I've had about four friends told not to hang around with me any more by their parents. Their loss. Kids who listen to their parents orders are yellow-bellies anyway. Better off without.

Animavore wrote:Bah! Peace is over-rated. I never lie about my non-belief or mask my distain of religion. I've had about four friends told not to hang around with me any more by their parents. Their loss. Kids who listen to their parents orders are yellow-bellies anyway. Better off without.

Look, I was a child. It wasn't about making my friends happy, but I was expected to go to Mass by my family, even when my parents didn't go themselves. Plus, I was still a believer (of sorts) at the time.

Regina wrote:

Animavore wrote:Bah! Peace is over-rated. I never lie about my non-belief or mask my distain of religion. I've had about four friends told not to hang around with me any more by their parents. Their loss. Kids who listen to their parents orders are yellow-bellies anyway. Better off without.

Look, I was a child. It wasn't about making my friends happy, but I was expected to go to Mass by my family, even when my parents didn't go themselves. Plus, I was still a believer (of sorts) at the time.

Yes. I was expected too. Thankfully I'm grown up now at can't be dragged and forced into church against my will by an authoritarian mother. Unless you are getting married or are dead there is no way you'll get me into one of those places. And even then I'll skip the mass if I can and go to the after party/wake. I'd sooner go to a strip show than those dens of facism and inanity.
I'm not a big fan of strip shows.

amkerman wrote:maybe I can offer something that might be of practical use and has the best interestes of your daughter in mind, rather than just looking out for one's particular ideologies and maintaining the status quo, which unfortunately, in America at least, has atheists being compared to theives and rapists, especially in deeply religious communities, which I would assume your part of Utah is.

I have 2 thoughts.

Thought 1 is that you allow your children to attend the church if they want and you go with them (Most likely they will not enjoy the experience). You remind them that you think it's all nonsense (or however you want to say it) that some people believe because it makes them feel good. Let them make their own decision. If they dont want to go to church anymore, great. If they do... well that's a whole new can of worms. Just pt your foot down I guess. Explain to your daughter that its not ok to lie to get what you want (that is if you actually believe that, maybe you think it is ok to lie to get what you want, just teach her whatever morals you want to teach her) and leave it at that.

Thought 2 is to talk to Carols parents and persuade them to allow their daughter to be friends with your daughter. Put their minds at ease and show them you are a good person/parent, and that your daughter is too.

Nice idea.

3 hours is not the end of the world at 7 and she may be able to sit with her friend.

Encourage her to ask questions, curiously.

John

I can not recommend taking her to church at all. Three hours is an eternity to a child. The tedium of church is unparalleled in activities monkeys do deliberatly. Yes, that includes salsa.

At least present it as a choice. 'Church or Water Super Fun Adventure Park?' If she picks church check her temperature and make sure she's alright.

How will she ever get to know what goes on in Churches if she never visits one?

John

Why would she want to know? I've never been to or care to go to a synagogue or mosque. It hasn't made a difference to my life not knowing what goes on in those places.

Animavore wrote:Why would she want to know? I've never been to or care to go to a synagogue or mosque. It hasn't made a difference to my life not knowing what goes on in those places.

What a narrow minded view.

Because she will have to live in a community of people who think and believe different things from her. If she only ever enquires about things she already believes in then her life long education will be deficient.

John