Corporal Punishment of Children

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Re: Corporal Punishment of Children

#301  Postby Onyx8 » Jan 16, 2014 8:15 am

Whatever it is, it ain't philosophy, or even particularly clever. Kinda sad really.
The problem with fantasies is you can't really insist that everyone else believes in yours, the other problem with fantasies is that most believers of fantasies eventually get around to doing exactly that.
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Re: Corporal Punishment of Children

#302  Postby GenesForLife » Jan 16, 2014 9:41 am

In fact, the article makes it clear just how difficult it is to make such a claim, since conjoining methods like counselling or the relationship with the child affects which outcomes are actuated. Here she is:

"The act of corporal punishment itself is different across parents - parents vary in how frequently they use it, how forcefully they administer it, how emotionally aroused they are when they do it, and whether they combine it with other techniques. Each of these qualities of corporal punishment can determine which child-mediated processes are activated, and, in turn, which outcomes may be realized,"


Heard of adjusting for confounders and using regression to model variances? http://oem.bmj.com/content/62/7/500.full
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Re: Corporal Punishment of Children

#303  Postby Sendraks » Jan 16, 2014 10:59 am

Personally I'd leave the dog to give the child a warning nip. Dogs rarely bite and a "bite" is classified as where the teeth actually break the skin.

The vast majority of "bites" are misreported warning nips by a dog, simply intended by the creature to say "don't do that, I don't like it." Most dogs, especially well socialised and trained dogs, do not want to cause physical harm to their human pack.

Of course, while quite intelligent, dogs lack the sophisticated means of communication at our disposal and therefore only really have the "warning nip" as a means of strongly expressing dislike.

Humans really have no excuse for resorting to physical force as a means of communication when it comes to children.
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Re: Corporal Punishment of Children

#304  Postby amok » Jan 17, 2014 12:16 am

This stuff about "counselling" and "debriefing" after a smacking creeps me out. I'd think the last person some poor kid needs counselling them is a person who thinks it's OK to smack kids.

I sort of understand a parent losing it in certain life-threatening situations, though. But that's not punishment in the way we're talking about; that's more a bad reaction because of fear and shock and whatnot.
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Re: Corporal Punishment of Children

#305  Postby Onyx8 » Jan 17, 2014 1:03 am

Yeah, I've VERY firmly grabbed a toddler who was running into the road by the arm and physically lifted her back to the sidewalk. I then apologised for the action and explained to her how what she had done was dangerous and also how scared I was when I saw her running into the traffic.

I can see no advantage to her learning process if I also whacked her upside the head but can definitely see it diminishing that process.
The problem with fantasies is you can't really insist that everyone else believes in yours, the other problem with fantasies is that most believers of fantasies eventually get around to doing exactly that.
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Re: Corporal Punishment of Children

#306  Postby THWOTH » Jan 17, 2014 11:28 am

Fallible wrote:... Why think smack-and-chat will suffice? It didn't work the first time, so you had to do it again. It didn't work the second time, so you had to do it again. It didn't work the third time, so you had to do it again. It didn't work the fourth time...

... so you start saying, "I've told you four times already, you disobedient child. Next time you'll get the slipper; you'll get the stick; you'll go in the wardrobe; you'll go without supper and breakfast; you'll sleep in the coalshed for a week. You've brought this on yourself you know..."
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Re: Corporal Punishment of Children

#307  Postby NamelessFaceless » Jan 17, 2014 2:58 pm

amok wrote:This stuff about "counselling" and "debriefing" after a smacking creeps me out. I'd think the last person some poor kid needs counselling them is a person who thinks it's OK to smack kids.

I sort of understand a parent losing it in certain life-threatening situations, though. But that's not punishment in the way we're talking about; that's more a bad reaction because of fear and shock and whatnot.


:this:

Another thing that creeps me out a lot is when people say they always follow up a spanking with a hug. Gross!

Is that how you raise a masochist?
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Re: Corporal Punishment of Children

#308  Postby Sendraks » Jan 17, 2014 3:01 pm

NamelessFaceless wrote:Is that how you raise a masochist?


Not that I'm aware of.
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Re: Corporal Punishment of Children

#309  Postby quas » Jan 19, 2014 6:25 am

NamelessFaceless wrote:Another thing that creeps me out a lot is when people say they always follow up a spanking with a hug. Gross!

Is that how you raise a masochist?


Don't have to hug them afterwards, but you are right. When the parent debrief or explain why he spanked the child, he is going to tell the child why it is important that he had to hit her, why he couldn't just tell her that what she had done wrong, why simple words don't suffice. Sometimes, he doesn't even have to debrief, just by hugging or displaying loving behavior afterwards, the child picks up that pain is necessary to atone for wrongdoings. Children can be quite sensitive and learn from subtle cues.

A child was once reprimanded by a teacher for bullying his classmate, and then the teacher observed the child hurting himself, pinching himself and poking himself with a pencil. The child knew what he had done was wrong, and he knew that the teacher scolding him was not enough, because at home scolding had to be accompanied with beating, and since the teacher didn't hit him (and he hadn't watched Fight Club so he didn't know that it's actually possible to say to another person, "I want you to hit me as hard as you can"), he had to hurt himself.
Last edited by quas on Jan 19, 2014 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Corporal Punishment of Children

#310  Postby Sendraks » Jan 19, 2014 12:40 pm

quas wrote:A child was once reprimanded by a teacher for bullying his classmate, and then the teacher observed the child hurting himself, pinching himself and poking himself with a pencil. The child knew what he had done was wrong, and he knew that the teacher scolding him is not enough, because at home scolding has to be accompanied with beating, and since the teacher didn't him (and he hadn't watched Fight Club so he didn't know that it's actually possible to say to another person, "I want you to hit me as hard as you can"), he had to hurt himself.


Poor kid, the effects of abuse are already showing with this disturbed behaviour. A child being conditioned to think it should receive pain as a result of its behaviour is really quite disturbing. I would like to think that this would prompt the school to investigate further into the child's homelife, after all bullying and self abuse are clear signs that something is deeply wrong.
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Re: Corporal Punishment of Children

#311  Postby GenesForLife » Jan 19, 2014 4:40 pm

Yup - I went through a phase where I self-harmed when I fucked up.
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Re: Corporal Punishment of Children

#312  Postby amok » Jan 21, 2014 4:05 am

GenesForLife wrote:Yup - I went through a phase where I self-harmed when I fucked up.

Sorry to hear that, GenesForLife. :(
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Re: Corporal Punishment of Children

#313  Postby purplerat » Jan 24, 2014 5:24 pm

quas wrote:
NamelessFaceless wrote:Another thing that creeps me out a lot is when people say they always follow up a spanking with a hug. Gross!

Is that how you raise a masochist?


Don't have to hug them afterwards, but you are right. When the parent debrief or explain why he spanked the child, he is going to tell the child why it is important that he had to hit her, why he couldn't just tell her that what she had done wrong, why simple words don't suffice. Sometimes, he doesn't even have to debrief, just by hugging or displaying loving behavior afterwards, the child picks up that pain is necessary to atone for wrongdoings. Children can be quite sensitive and learn from subtle cues.

A child was once reprimanded by a teacher for bullying his classmate, and then the teacher observed the child hurting himself, pinching himself and poking himself with a pencil. The child knew what he had done was wrong, and he knew that the teacher scolding him was not enough, because at home scolding had to be accompanied with beating, and since the teacher didn't hit him (and he hadn't watched Fight Club so he didn't know that it's actually possible to say to another person, "I want you to hit me as hard as you can"), he had to hurt himself.

This to me seems to be a great way to condition children not to experience real empathy by replacing (and reinforcing) that all that matters is what they personally feel.
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