Corporal Punishment of Children

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Corporal Punishment of Children

#1  Postby murshid » Jul 21, 2010 11:31 am

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Just found this link and wanted to share it with you people:

Open Letter to Roy Lessin: Author of "Spanking: Why, When, How"
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Re: Corporal Punishment of Children

#2  Postby Sityl » Jul 21, 2010 12:02 pm

Spanking: Because you can't control your temper, when you can't control your temper, how you destroy your child's psychological well being.
Stephen Colbert wrote:Now, like all great theologies, Bill [O'Reilly]'s can be boiled down to one sentence - 'There must be a god, because I don't know how things work.'


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Re: Corporal Punishment of Children

#3  Postby kiki5711 » Jul 21, 2010 3:25 pm

spanking at 6 months old? she's a freaken god damn psycho nut case!
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Re: Corporal Punishment of Children

#4  Postby The_Metatron » Jul 21, 2010 3:28 pm

Beat them into submission. Early. Human young are eminently trainable.
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Re: Corporal Punishment of Children

#5  Postby Atheist PhD » Jul 21, 2010 3:36 pm

I am an atheist, and a liberal, but I spanked, with emphasis on spanked my two children, who are now adults. Why, you may ask, well, because I firmly believe that it's not the pain of spanking that works, that will NEVER work, it's the attention it brings to a child. As a psychologist, I KNOW you can't be rational with a two year old, you can't explain why running into the road is dangerous, and I firmly believe that "time out" in today's society is a JOKE. Send a kid to his room? Are you kidding? That's like punishing a kid with a cookie.

I know this won't be a popular post, and I'll accept the indignant replies, but I have two grown sons, both of whom are well-adjusted, happy, intelligent, loving, and NOT shooting anyone from the bell tower. Each of them were given GREATER amounts of love than discipline, my philosophy was to worry about the big things and not the little things, and the emphasis of their lives was not discipline, but LOVE. When a swat on the butt to get their attention was needed, I administered it, but I never beat my children in anger, in fact I never spanked them in anger or with anything other than the flat of my hand.

I am against the over-interference of government in the lives of parents, except in the case of harmful abuse. I believe that the level of mental abuse on children is more acceptable, and more harmful, than the physical abuse that is so prominant on society's mind.
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Re: Corporal Punishment of Children

#6  Postby The_Metatron » Jul 21, 2010 4:17 pm

Well, I get the behavior I demand from my boys without resorting to physical violence. To address the example AtheistPhD gave about the two year old, I physically prevent them from running into a street, that is an example of an action that I have made an impossibility. As for the spanking, I never considered it a reasonable consequence to actions. It isn't used in the real grownup world, and I don't use it on my children. To be sure, there are consequences to their actions that are certain and consistent. I've found it (awarding appropriate consequences) to be most effective.
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Re: Corporal Punishment of Children

#7  Postby Fallible » Jul 21, 2010 4:33 pm

I was smacked and it just made me scared of my parents. I know some might think that's not such a bad idea, but I don't want my kid to be scared of me. I don't smack and have never smacked. I have had no need. Perhaps if she was a hard-to-control child my patience might have been tested more than it has been, but I feel it's even worse to smack out of anger. I wouldn't hit anything I love, be that a partner, a child or a pet.
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Re: Corporal Punishment of Children

#8  Postby kiki5711 » Jul 21, 2010 5:04 pm

I spanked my kids maybe 3 times in all and that was on their butt before they ran away!

As far as teaching your kid not to run into the street, I always made sure I was there watching them so they don't until they learned themselves not to.
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Re: Corporal Punishment of Children

#9  Postby hotshoe » Jul 21, 2010 6:33 pm

The_Metatron wrote:Well, I get the behavior I demand from my boys without resorting to physical violence. To address the example AtheistPhD gave about the two year old, I physically prevent them from running into a street, that is an example of an action that I have made an impossibility. As for the spanking, I never considered it a reasonable consequence to actions. It isn't used in the real grownup world, and I don't use it on my children. To be sure, there are consequences to their actions that are certain and consistent. I've found it (awarding appropriate consequences) to be most effective.


Great for you that you were able to get the behavior you demand. Not all parents are so fortunate. I had one fairly docile and fairly manageable child, and one who was -- well, not. The younger one and I were holding hands, getting ready to cross at the street corner, when he suddenly kicked me hard in the knee and then ran across the street. Reason ? Who knows ? Could I have prevented it ? Not at all.

When I caught up to him on the other side of the street he got a hard swat on the behind and he got picked up and carried to our destination. But carrying a willful three-year old everywhere we need to go is not a solution; it's bad for the child's development as well as bad for the adult's back. Using a leash ? Well, it's impossible for them to run into the street if that's your solution, but a leash is worse for their development than one or two quick swats would be.

There is nothing magically virtuous about pledging never to spank a child, and nothing demonically immoral about spanking a child appropriately.
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Re: Corporal Punishment of Children

#10  Postby The_Metatron » Jul 21, 2010 7:45 pm

hotshoe wrote:
The_Metatron wrote:Well, I get the behavior I demand from my boys without resorting to physical violence. To address the example AtheistPhD gave about the two year old, I physically prevent them from running into a street, that is an example of an action that I have made an impossibility. As for the spanking, I never considered it a reasonable consequence to actions. It isn't used in the real grownup world, and I don't use it on my children. To be sure, there are consequences to their actions that are certain and consistent. I've found it (awarding appropriate consequences) to be most effective.


Great for you that you were able to get the behavior you demand. Not all parents are so fortunate. I had one fairly docile and fairly manageable child, and one who was -- well, not. The younger one and I were holding hands, getting ready to cross at the street corner, when he suddenly kicked me hard in the knee and then ran across the street. Reason ? Who knows ? Could I have prevented it ? Not at all.

When I caught up to him on the other side of the street he got a hard swat on the behind and he got picked up and carried to our destination. But carrying a willful three-year old everywhere we need to go is not a solution; it's bad for the child's development as well as bad for the adult's back. Using a leash ? Well, it's impossible for them to run into the street if that's your solution, but a leash is worse for their development than one or two quick swats would be.

There is nothing magically virtuous about pledging never to spank a child, and nothing demonically immoral about spanking a child appropriately.

Relax, man. Review my post that you quoted and I have done nothing more than say what I do. For what it's worth. I made no comments whatsoever on the morality of those who spank their children.
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Re: Corporal Punishment of Children

#11  Postby Sityl » Jul 21, 2010 7:51 pm

hotshoe wrote:
The_Metatron wrote:Well, I get the behavior I demand from my boys without resorting to physical violence. To address the example AtheistPhD gave about the two year old, I physically prevent them from running into a street, that is an example of an action that I have made an impossibility. As for the spanking, I never considered it a reasonable consequence to actions. It isn't used in the real grownup world, and I don't use it on my children. To be sure, there are consequences to their actions that are certain and consistent. I've found it (awarding appropriate consequences) to be most effective.


Great for you that you were able to get the behavior you demand. Not all parents are so fortunate. I had one fairly docile and fairly manageable child, and one who was -- well, not. The younger one and I were holding hands, getting ready to cross at the street corner, when he suddenly kicked me hard in the knee and then ran across the street. Reason ? Who knows ? Could I have prevented it ? Not at all.

When I caught up to him on the other side of the street he got a hard swat on the behind and he got picked up and carried to our destination. But carrying a willful three-year old everywhere we need to go is not a solution; it's bad for the child's development as well as bad for the adult's back. Using a leash ? Well, it's impossible for them to run into the street if that's your solution, but a leash is worse for their development than one or two quick swats would be.

There is nothing magically virtuous about pledging never to spank a child, and nothing demonically immoral about spanking a child appropriately.


Of course there's nothing "demonic" about spanking. Noone here is arguing that. But, it CAN cause pshychological harm, and can actually worsen the child's behavior. Children need structure, and they need to learn that there are both good and bad consequences to their actions, and those consequences have to be consistent. All of these can things can be achieved without resorting to physical and psychological trauma.
Stephen Colbert wrote:Now, like all great theologies, Bill [O'Reilly]'s can be boiled down to one sentence - 'There must be a god, because I don't know how things work.'


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Re: Corporal Punishment of Children

#12  Postby hotshoe » Jul 21, 2010 7:54 pm

Maybe all, except stopping them from running out into the street (or similar immediate dangers).
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Re: Corporal Punishment of Children

#13  Postby Julia » Jul 21, 2010 8:34 pm

hotshoe wrote:Maybe all, except stopping them from running out into the street (or similar immediate dangers).


And so, did he never do that again?
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Re: Corporal Punishment of Children

#14  Postby Matty the Damned » Jul 21, 2010 8:35 pm

The real crime is not that you hit the boy, but that you did not hit him hard enough.

I forget who said that but it sums up my childhood and early adolesence.

Beltings were a routine feature of life back then. Particularly at school. Anecdotally speaking it was utterly ineffective. As I got older I began to wonder why adults opted for this rather pointless method when there were so many more tedious punishments they could dole out.

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Re: Corporal Punishment of Children

#15  Postby Fallible » Jul 21, 2010 8:36 pm

I am putting this down to a paucity in my understanding, but how does smacking a child after it has run out into the street stop it from running out into the street?
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Re: Corporal Punishment of Children

#16  Postby Julia » Jul 21, 2010 8:39 pm

And I do get just a bit tired about that good ole straw man of "spanking to keep them from running in the street". When people talk about not spanking, the issue isn't the once-a-year swat to get a child's attention or the once-every-three years smack to the behind because they ran out into the street. Barring extraordinary circumstances, it's just not necessary and, when done habitually, is downright harmful and a very poor example to set.
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Re: Corporal Punishment of Children

#17  Postby hotshoe » Jul 21, 2010 8:58 pm

Yes, that's true - in context of the OP, it's not just about one spank, it's about a published pro-spanking theory (which not-coincidentally happens to be propagated by delusional religionists) which results in repetitive abusive spanking.

I guess there are atheist parent who repetitively and abusively spank their children, but I'm certain there are no rational parents who habitually make that mistake.
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Re: Corporal Punishment of Children

#18  Postby OHSU » Jul 21, 2010 9:45 pm

A major part of the problem with this discussion is that "spanking" covers such a wide range of physical force -- ranging from something like a quick tap to get a child's attention to a prolonged beating with a belt or cane.

Those who say they agree with "spanking" are usually not talking about punishing a child for bad behavior by giving them a beating. They're usually talking about a quick, relatively painless swat, mostly to focus their attention. Those who are opposed to "spanking" usually speak of "violence", "losing your temper", "beating" and the like. Obviously, most of the time we're not talking about the same thing.

Aside from being raised in a wonderful home by two loving parents who raised 5 extremely successful and well-adjusted boys, and aside from having three extremely successful and well-adjusted children of my own, I also engage in the professional training of dogs.

"Now what in the f*(&^ does that have to do with corporal punishment of children?" you ask. The answer is that many of the principles of dog obedience training apply to raising children. (This makes for facile pseudo-rebuttals, like, "Oh sure, treat your kids like animals," but can we please use our brains and not take the easy route?)

Look, you can get a dog to obey you by beating it, withholding its food, and treating it like a piece of garbage. Its obedience will be the result of fear. You can also get a dog to obey you by making it love you, trust you, and want to follow your leadership. Its obedience will be the result of the sheer joy of being with you and collaborating with you. Just as there are differences of opinion regarding child-rearing, there are differences of opinion regarding dog training. Some advocate nothing but positive reinforcement with zero corrections. They look at people who who use e-collars, pinch collars, etc. as "beating dogs into submission". Others advocate lots of corrections, and they look at exclusive positive reinforcement as "cookies and bribery".

The question is, who gets the best results? And the answer is, neither extreme. In modern dog obedience competitions, one of the things they judge is whether the dog appears to be happy, eager, and enjoying the activity. People who are too heavy-handed get dogs that are obviously engaging in the activity only because they fear punishment. On the other hand, people who use only positive reinforcement tend to get inconsistent results.

The best dog-trainers in the world use abundant positive reinforcement, and they structure their training sessions so that they're fun, stimulating, and interesting. But, they also use consistent correction, usually with something like a "choke" or "pinch" collar (badly named, and frequently misused by amateurs and enthusiasts) or an e-collar.

When used properly, these methods of physical correction do not hurt the dog. Imagine you took a teenager to a crowded party, and he became so engrossed talking to other people that he/she ignored you when you spoke. You might tap him firmly on the shoulder to interrupt his chatter and get his attention, might you not? This is the same philosophy employed when using a choke or pinch collar correctly. They're not used to torment, injure, strangle, or inflict pain on the dog. They're merely used as a way of effectively getting the dog's attention. Once you have its attention, you can begin rewarding it again for displaying the desired behavior. You can tell when a dog trainer uses physical correction properly, because his dogs display consistently precise behavior, and the dogs LOVE working and training.

My philosophy on "spanking" is similar to my philosophy regarding physical correction in dog training. I believe there are occasions that call for it, and when done properly it is the best course of action. I also believe it should be used sparingly, never in anger, and should not take the form of violent punishment.
Last edited by OHSU on Jul 22, 2010 1:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Corporal Punishment of Children

#19  Postby MoonLit » Jul 21, 2010 11:56 pm

From the OP's link-
The seventh step is to continue spanking until the child yields a broken cry, which indicates a broken will.


That is mental abuse. Sadly, mental abuse is harder to spot then physical.

You recommend that parents spank a child who displays a "wrong attitude" by continuing to cry too long after a spanking.


Oh look, more mental AND physical abuse.

To my great dismay, I learned that sexual stimulation can be cross-wired with the painful ritual of spankings. This cross-wiring was a real problem for me. Because I couldn't cope with the double message of love and pain, I avoided developing an intimate relationship with a man for a very long time. It took years for me to find a healthy sexuality outside the memories I have of the Roy Lessin spankings.


Roy Lessin should be in prison. Where he ought to rot till death.
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Re: Corporal Punishment of Children

#20  Postby OHSU » Jul 22, 2010 12:03 am

Mental and physical abuse is right. That guy is one sick fuck.
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