GreyICE wrote:I have an ongoing argument that flares up on occasion.

I have a strong belief that giving clothing and makeup choices to children is awful. As background, my girlfriend grew up experimenting with various types of clothing and makeup, and claims it never did her any harm. Now if I have female children, I'd want to ban that sort of stuff in the house, and my partner disagrees.

The argument is that little girls are naturally vicious connivers who are predisposed to use relational aggressionin all aspects of their personal life. I know some of the same behavior has been documented in some boys, but to keep it brief I'm being general here. You just have to look at a group of children, the boys are usually reasonably friendly with most of eachother, and even the 'outcasts' have their own group, while the girls relentlessly ostracize and target the 'outcasts.' Women have remarkably higher depression rates, they spend three times as much money on mental health issues, you know what I'm talking about. How often do you hear about guys institutionalized for a week or two, versus girls?

I don't have any daughters, so it's not an issue for me, but if it was, I'd be working my hardest to make sure that they didn't get these tools that they use to create the relational aggression that has destroyed the lives of so many. When you have issues like depression and mental illness that haunt women, it shouldn't be laughed off as 'gossip' or 'moody girls.' These tools are enablers for the tendency women have to lie, cheat, and betray others.

Am I overreacting, or do I have a point?

GreyICE wrote:I have an ongoing argument that flares up on occasion.

I have a strong belief that giving clothing and makeup choices to children is awful. As background, my girlfriend grew up experimenting with various types of clothing and makeup, and claims it never did her any harm. Now if I have female children, I'd want to ban that sort of stuff in the house, and my partner disagrees.

melchior wrote:What the fuck is relational aggression?

Julia wrote:I think you're overreacting. My experience has been the polar opposite. Boys, even when they're "friends" seem to enjoy insulting each other and rarely have serious, intimate discussions about things that really matter in their lives. Girls, in general, are much more supportive of each other.

Regina wrote:

melchior wrote:What the fuck is relational aggression?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relational_aggression

GreyICE wrote:I have an ongoing argument that flares up on occasion.

I have a strong belief that giving clothing and makeup choices to children is awful. As background, my girlfriend grew up experimenting with various types of clothing and makeup, and claims it never did her any harm. Now if I have female children, I'd want to ban that sort of stuff in the house, and my partner disagrees.

The argument is that little girls are naturally vicious connivers who are predisposed to use relational aggressionin all aspects of their personal life. I know some of the same behavior has been documented in some boys, but to keep it brief I'm being general here. You just have to look at a group of children, the boys are usually reasonably friendly with most of eachother, and even the 'outcasts' have their own group, while the girls relentlessly ostracize and target the 'outcasts.' Women have remarkably higher depression rates, they spend three times as much money on mental health issues, you know what I'm talking about. How often do you hear about guys institutionalized for a week or two, versus girls?

I don't have any daughters, so it's not an issue for me, but if it was, I'd be working my hardest to make sure that they didn't get these tools that they use to create the relational aggression that has destroyed the lives of so many. When you have issues like depression and mental illness that haunt women, it shouldn't be laughed off as 'gossip' or 'moody girls.' These tools are enablers for the tendency women have to lie, cheat, and betray others.

Am I overreacting, or do I have a point?

Julia wrote:Warren, all I can say is that my experience has been very different. Both from what I've observed with my two children (girl and boy) growing up and with my own and my husband's growing up. Maybe I was just friends with nicer women? Or maybe it's a different generation--my teen and young adult years were in the 70s and 80s.

melchior wrote:Right, so it's a posh term for being a bit of a bitch? And the problem with that is?!!

Warren Dew wrote:

Julia wrote:Warren, all I can say is that my experience has been very different. Both from what I've observed with my two children (girl and boy) growing up and with my own and my husband's growing up. Maybe I was just friends with nicer women? Or maybe it's a different generation--my teen and young adult years were in the 70s and 80s.

I'm the same generation as you are, so generational differences don't explain your husband's unusual experiences if he suffered from a lot of relational aggression rather than physical aggression. My wife is 10 years younger - gen X rather than boomer - but presumably your children are younger than she is.

You might have gone to a nicer high school.

EduardHorak wrote:the argument does not take into account basic causal factors that would influence such behaviour (i.e. culture, race, religion, upbringing, social norms, etc.)

Integrating current research on emotion regulation, gender, and peer relations, the book examines how girls are socialized to experience and express anger and aggression from infancy through adolescence. Considered are the developmental functions of such behaviors as gossip, friendship manipulation, and social exclusion; consequences for both victims and perpetrators; and approaches to intervention and prevention.

Warren Dew wrote:

Julia wrote:Warren, all I can say is that my experience has been very different. Both from what I've observed with my two children (girl and boy) growing up and with my own and my husband's growing up. Maybe I was just friends with nicer women? Or maybe it's a different generation--my teen and young adult years were in the 70s and 80s.

I'm the same generation as you are, so generational differences don't explain your husband's unusual experiences if he suffered from a lot of relational aggression rather than physical aggression. My wife is 10 years younger - gen X rather than boomer - but presumably your children are younger than she is.

You might have gone to a nicer high school.

Julia wrote:My husband's experiences were as growing up fat and Jewish in a mostly non-Jewish area. He was bullied and threatened for one thing or the other and it was always by boys.

GreyICE wrote:Warren, I'm wondering if you think its likely that relational aggression in females and male violence are two different manifestations of human aggressive tendencies (with the manifestation being forced from social constructs rather than some genetic factor), and that the real solution we need to be looking at is rechanneling aggression for both genders into something positive?

Warren Dew wrote:

GreyICE wrote:Warren, I'm wondering if you think its likely that relational aggression in females and male violence are two different manifestations of human aggressive tendencies (with the manifestation being forced from social constructs rather than some genetic factor), and that the real solution we need to be looking at is rechanneling aggression for both genders into something positive?

The summary of Underwood's book certainly seems to suggest there is some such effect. I haven't read the book but I've put it on my Amazon wish list to remind myself to at some point.

I'm not convinced that "rechanneling aggression ... into something positive" is realistic. Minimizing the damage might be the best we can do. There may also be ways of reducing the aggression in the first place, so it doesn't have to be channeled.

Warren Dew wrote:

melchior wrote:Right, so it's a posh term for being a bit of a bitch? And the problem with that is?!!

Lives ruined and people dead, of course.

melchior wrote:

Warren Dew wrote:

melchior wrote:Right, so it's a posh term for being a bit of a bitch? And the problem with that is?!!

Lives ruined and people dead, of course.

Warren, 'Mean Girls' isn't real.

Being a girl, having a sister, having 2 girls of my own and working in a co-ed school means that I know a little bit about the female of the species and how we operate. This relational aggression that you speak of is certainly not the norm and is not confined to girls.

I've seen girls fist fighting, had a couple myself as a kid, and I've seen boys engage in covert bullying. In fact my oldest son has been the victim of 'relational aggression' perpetrated by other boys in his school.