Girls bridge math gap, but boys lag in reading

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Re: Girls bridge math gap, but boys lag in reading

#21  Postby babel » Apr 13, 2010 10:12 am

Still, like the girls closed the gap in maths, with additional attention, boys should be able to do this for linguistic skills.
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Re: Girls bridge math gap, but boys lag in reading

#22  Postby Emmeline » Apr 13, 2010 11:22 am

@ Darwinsbulldog
I don't think there's any evidence of social engineering to enable girls to close the gap in mathematics. It's just been a by-product of gender-equal societies. There is certainly evidence that girls are generally more skilled linguistically at an early age though.
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Re: Girls bridge math gap, but boys lag in reading

#23  Postby Darwinsbulldog » Apr 14, 2010 9:12 am

Topsy wrote:@ Darwinsbulldog
I don't think there's any evidence of social engineering to enable girls to close the gap in mathematics. It's just been a by-product of gender-equal societies. There is certainly evidence that girls are generally more skilled linguistically at an early age though.



A pity really, because a more feminine perspective [not meant in a sexist way] is quite good for science. Rosalind Franklin, for example, was a kick-ass X-Ray crystallographer. All Watson and Crick did was join the dots to get the structure of DNA. He data was way ahead of Bragg's, which is why Linux C. Pauling got it wrong and thought DNA was a triple helix.
Guys in Physics are too linear sometimes. It holds back the science. Physics need a Lynn Margulis.

Jocelyn Bell who discovered pulsars, is another good example. I am not saying that there is such a thing as feminist physics, but there are too few women in maths and science, too many geek boys.
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Re: Girls bridge math gap, but boys lag in reading

#24  Postby Emmeline » Apr 14, 2010 6:02 pm

Darwinsbulldog wrote:
Topsy wrote:@ Darwinsbulldog
I don't think there's any evidence of social engineering to enable girls to close the gap in mathematics. It's just been a by-product of gender-equal societies. There is certainly evidence that girls are generally more skilled linguistically at an early age though.



A pity really, because a more feminine perspective [not meant in a sexist way] is quite good for science. Rosalind Franklin, for example, was a kick-ass X-Ray crystallographer. All Watson and Crick did was join the dots to get the structure of DNA. He data was way ahead of Bragg's, which is why Linux C. Pauling got it wrong and thought DNA was a triple helix.
Guys in Physics are too linear sometimes. It holds back the science. Physics need a Lynn Margulis.

Jocelyn Bell who discovered pulsars, is another good example. I am not saying that there is such a thing as feminist physics, but there are too few women in maths and science, too many geek boys.


I'm not averse to the notion that males and females might have general differences in aptitudes and preferences. If that's how we've evolved then I can accept that. The most important thing IMO is that individuals have every opportunity to follow their talents and interests regardless of gender.
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Re: Girls bridge math gap, but boys lag in reading

#25  Postby Tyrannical » Apr 15, 2010 5:35 am

Topsy wrote:I'm not averse to the notion that males and females might have general differences in aptitudes and preferences. If that's how we've evolved then I can accept that.


What a fascinating thing to say.
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Re: Girls bridge math gap, but boys lag in reading

#26  Postby Darwinsbulldog » Apr 15, 2010 6:38 am

Topsy wrote:
Darwinsbulldog wrote:
Topsy wrote:@ Darwinsbulldog
I don't think there's any evidence of social engineering to enable girls to close the gap in mathematics. It's just been a by-product of gender-equal societies. There is certainly evidence that girls are generally more skilled linguistically at an early age though.



A pity really, because a more feminine perspective [not meant in a sexist way] is quite good for science. Rosalind Franklin, for example, was a kick-ass X-Ray crystallographer. All Watson and Crick did was join the dots to get the structure of DNA. He data was way ahead of Bragg's, which is why Linux C. Pauling got it wrong and thought DNA was a triple helix.
Guys in Physics are too linear sometimes. It holds back the science. Physics need a Lynn Margulis.

Jocelyn Bell who discovered pulsars, is another good example. I am not saying that there is such a thing as feminist physics, but there are too few women in maths and science, too many geek boys.


I'm not averse to the notion that males and females might have general differences in aptitudes and preferences. If that's how we've evolved then I can accept that. The most important thing IMO is that individuals have every opportunity to follow their talents and interests regardless of gender.


I didn't think you were Topsy, I was just pointing our that [even after enablment programs are given to folks to maximize their skills] we may not end up with a fifty-fifty ratio.
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Re: Girls bridge math gap, but boys lag in reading

#27  Postby Spearthrower » Apr 15, 2010 11:03 am

Segundo wrote:
babel wrote:On another note, what could explain the linguistic gap between boys and girls? Do girls tend to read more, because boys are more interested in active pass times?
It's an inborn difference.


I'd imagine it's a learned behaviour that may well be reinforced by cultural stereotypes, but i can't see it as a fundamental gender difference.
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Re: Girls bridge math gap, but boys lag in reading

#28  Postby Segundo » Apr 15, 2010 11:14 am

Spearthrower wrote:
Segundo wrote:
babel wrote:On another note, what could explain the linguistic gap between boys and girls? Do girls tend to read more, because boys are more interested in active pass times?
It's an inborn difference.


I'd imagine it's a learned behaviour that may well be reinforced by cultural stereotypes, but i can't see it as a fundamental gender difference.


Nope. It's been researched. The difference is inborn.
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Re: Girls bridge math gap, but boys lag in reading

#29  Postby Warren Dew » Apr 15, 2010 3:26 pm

Segundo wrote:Nope. It's been researched. The difference is inborn.

Link to the research please? I can see how females might have been evolutionarily selected to be more verbal - among other things, they do more of the early child care, where communication might be important - but seeing the scientific confirmation would be interesting.
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Re: Girls bridge math gap, but boys lag in reading

#30  Postby Segundo » Apr 15, 2010 3:44 pm

Warren Dew wrote:
Segundo wrote:Nope. It's been researched. The difference is inborn.

Link to the research please? I can see how females might have been evolutionarily selected to be more verbal - among other things, they do more of the early child care, where communication might be important - but seeing the scientific confirmation would be interesting.


I don't have a link Warren. If I recall correctly Steven Pinker discussed this issue to at least some degree in his book, The Blank Slate: The modern denial of human nature. I recommend this book by the way as it is a fascinating read. Especially interesting are the references to Marxism; namely the way in which Marxist thought has influenced the Western mind-set - especially the study of human behaviour.
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Re: Girls bridge math gap, but boys lag in reading

#31  Postby margolotta » Apr 15, 2010 4:17 pm

Studys made here in Sweden have shown that girls do better then boys in nearly every area. So I am guessing that there are a lot of difference form country to country.


The boys are doing worse than girls in high school

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Re: Girls bridge math gap, but boys lag in reading

#32  Postby Tyrannical » Apr 15, 2010 4:27 pm

margolotta wrote:Studys made here in Sweden have shown that girls do better then boys in nearly every area. So I am guessing that there are a lot of difference form country to country.


The boys are doing worse than girls in high school

Computer Games makes guys better than girls in English


If I were in a class full of Swedish girls, I'm not sure studies would be on my mind :think:
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Re: Girls bridge math gap, but boys lag in reading

#33  Postby Spearthrower » Apr 16, 2010 3:18 pm

Segundo wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
Segundo wrote:
babel wrote:On another note, what could explain the linguistic gap between boys and girls? Do girls tend to read more, because boys are more interested in active pass times?
It's an inborn difference.


I'd imagine it's a learned behaviour that may well be reinforced by cultural stereotypes, but i can't see it as a fundamental gender difference.


Nope. It's been researched. The difference is inborn.



Unless you can cite a reference, then your assertion is functionally meaningless.
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Re: Girls bridge math gap, but boys lag in reading

#34  Postby Spearthrower » Apr 16, 2010 3:21 pm

Segundo wrote:
Warren Dew wrote:
Segundo wrote:Nope. It's been researched. The difference is inborn.

Link to the research please? I can see how females might have been evolutionarily selected to be more verbal - among other things, they do more of the early child care, where communication might be important - but seeing the scientific confirmation would be interesting.


I don't have a link Warren.


Then you will understand that people here will not accept your assertion as fact. Please try to indicate where you are giving your opinion and where you are stating supportable facts.

You asserted that your claim has been researched (where? by whom?) - you asserted that the difference is 'inborn' - citation needed.

If you don't have a link, and don't remember where you read it... then I can just as easily say that research indicates the opposite. We end up with 2 sides doing "yes"/"no" rather than presenting evidence.
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Re: Girls bridge math gap, but boys lag in reading

#35  Postby Segundo » Apr 16, 2010 7:49 pm

Look Warren requested some further information and I kindly informed him that I could not recall in detail where I read what I read but provided the name of a book in which he might find some further info. This is entirely acceptable, and I think Warren will agree. You, my friend, are stuck in some kind of debating loop.
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Re: Girls bridge math gap, but boys lag in reading

#36  Postby Darwinsbulldog » Apr 17, 2010 1:29 am

There is a vast amount of literature on sex differences and intelligence. A search in google scholar with the term "sex differences and intelligence" gave me me approximately 665,000 hits.

Researchers such as Jenny Graves have found that genes "for" types of intelligence seem to be linked in some way to genes that "code" for gender. What is known is that males and females have different sex hormones in different quantities and this not only determines secondary sexual characteristics, but behavior as well. This includes tenancies in areas of intelligence. It also seems that cultural influences magnify these rather small differences because some cultures deem it appropriate [whether is is right or not] to train girls and boys differently.

I remain temporarily agnostic on the whole idea, because of the complexity of the question, [and the mass of literature that needs to be assimilated] but do lean towards there being a mild tendency for males and females to differ on areas of intelligence, and this may be reinforced by cultural influences.

Of course, this is a "hot potato" of a topic, precisely because people have cultural preferences on child-rearing and education. So obviously, the available literature must be read with this caveat in mind.
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Re: Girls bridge math gap, but boys lag in reading

#37  Postby Segundo » Apr 17, 2010 10:10 am

We should expect males and females to be at least somewhat different regarding behaviour when raised exactly the same way. IQ tests find an IQ difference of 5 points between males and females.

Of course, this is a "hot potato" of a topic, precisely because people have cultural preferences on child-rearing and education. So obviously, the available literature must be read with this caveat in mind.
Steven Pinker's book which I mentioned has a good chapter on child rearing.
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Re: Girls bridge math gap, but boys lag in reading

#38  Postby Warren Dew » Apr 17, 2010 1:57 pm

Segundo wrote:We should expect males and females to be at least somewhat different regarding behaviour when raised exactly the same way. IQ tests find an IQ difference of 5 points between males and females.

I don't believe that's an accurate view of the data. Herrnstein & Murray suggest that the IQs for both sexes are the same, but that the standard deviation is somewhat larger for males.

The only study I know of that shows such a difference is that of the orphans of occupying U.S. soldiers in Germany after World War 2, where the male orphans of white soldiers scored significantly higher than the female orphans of white soldiers. No such sex difference was found in the orphans of black soldiers, though, and the overall average was the same between the races, strongly suggesting that the culture acted to elevate white male scores and depress white female scores, while acting neutrally on the scores of nonwhite orphans.
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Re: Girls bridge math gap, but boys lag in reading

#39  Postby Emmeline » Apr 17, 2010 3:21 pm

The IQ data I know of suggests that females and males have an equal average IQ but that there are more males at the genius end and also at the learning difficulties end.
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Re: Girls bridge math gap, but boys lag in reading

#40  Postby Segundo » Apr 17, 2010 4:47 pm

Warren Dew wrote:
Segundo wrote:We should expect males and females to be at least somewhat different regarding behaviour when raised exactly the same way. IQ tests find an IQ difference of 5 points between males and females.

I don't believe that's an accurate view of the data. Herrnstein & Murray suggest that the IQs for both sexes are the same, but that the standard deviation is somewhat larger for males.

The only study I know of that shows such a difference is that of the orphans of occupying U.S. soldiers in Germany after World War 2, where the male orphans of white soldiers scored significantly higher than the female orphans of white soldiers. No such sex difference was found in the orphans of black soldiers, though, and the overall average was the same between the races, strongly suggesting that the culture acted to elevate white male scores and depress white female scores, while acting neutrally on the scores of nonwhite orphans.


I came across the Herrnstein and Murray finding before but Lynn (and others I think) have found a small difference in the male-female averages. I can probably find a reference if you want.
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