Grade 8 Guest speaker on Islam

Un-fucking-believable

Discussions for education, teaching & parenting.

Moderators: Blip, The_Metatron

Re: Grade 8 Guest speaker on Islam

#21  Postby HughMcB » May 19, 2015 5:16 pm

Onyx8 wrote:
HughMcB wrote:
Onyx8 wrote:"Produced by something called the Ahmadiyya Muslim Association UK"

So? What exactly does that mean?

They have "UK" written as a part of their non-profit or business name? Oh silly me I guess they speak for all Muslims in the UK then.


It was the "Ahmadiyya" bit I was directing you to. You asked: "which particular flavour of Islam are we talking about?" I showed you.

Then thank you. I'll retract my cuntiness in that case. :)

This would point to perhaps them being sincere in the beliefs outlined in the pamphlet.
"So we're just done with phrasing?"
User avatar
HughMcB
RS Donator
 
Posts: 19113
Age: 34
Male

Country: Canada
Ireland (ie)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Grade 8 Guest speaker on Islam

#22  Postby HughMcB » May 19, 2015 5:18 pm

Clive Durdle wrote:Is there a problem with researching context and nuance?

Clearly, yes.
"So we're just done with phrasing?"
User avatar
HughMcB
RS Donator
 
Posts: 19113
Age: 34
Male

Country: Canada
Ireland (ie)
Print view this post

Re: Grade 8 Guest speaker on Islam

#23  Postby BlackBart » May 19, 2015 5:20 pm

Ahmadiyya is basically an offshoot of Islam founded in India in the 18th Century and are, simplistically put, 'Muslims for Jesus' so they're generally looked down upon by orthodox muslims as heretics. They well may believe what they preach, but they don't speak for the whole of Islam, although they seem to think they do. Our resident Ahmadi seemed to have some kind of mental block when the problems with Islam in general were presented to him.
Last edited by BlackBart on May 19, 2015 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
You don't crucify people! Not on Good Friday! - Harold Shand
User avatar
BlackBart
 
Posts: 11493
Age: 56
Male

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Grade 8 Guest speaker on Islam

#24  Postby Onyx8 » May 19, 2015 5:22 pm

HughMcB wrote:
Onyx8 wrote:
HughMcB wrote:
Onyx8 wrote:"Produced by something called the Ahmadiyya Muslim Association UK"

So? What exactly does that mean?

They have "UK" written as a part of their non-profit or business name? Oh silly me I guess they speak for all Muslims in the UK then.


It was the "Ahmadiyya" bit I was directing you to. You asked: "which particular flavour of Islam are we talking about?" I showed you.

Then thank you. I'll retract my cuntiness in that case. :)

This would point to perhaps them being sincere in the beliefs outlined in the pamphlet.



:thumbup:

I'm sure they are sincere. They are also incorrect when they say things like: "There is no punishment for apostasy in Islam". There is, just not in their brand of Islam.
The problem with fantasies is you can't really insist that everyone else believes in yours, the other problem with fantasies is that most believers of fantasies eventually get around to doing exactly that.
User avatar
Onyx8
Moderator
 
Posts: 17520
Age: 62
Male

Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Grade 8 Guest speaker on Islam

#25  Postby HughMcB » May 19, 2015 5:22 pm

BlackBart wrote:Ahmadiyya is basically an offshoot of Islam founded in India in the 18th Century and are, simplistically put, 'Muslims for Jesus' so they're generally looked down upon by orthodox muslims as heretics. They well may believe what they preach, but they don't speak for the whole of Islam, although they seem to think they do. Our resident Ahmadi seemed to have some kind of mental block when the problems with Islam in general were presented to him.

Which problems in particular (just generally interested)?

And are these positions that he espouses?
"So we're just done with phrasing?"
User avatar
HughMcB
RS Donator
 
Posts: 19113
Age: 34
Male

Country: Canada
Ireland (ie)
Print view this post

Re: Grade 8 Guest speaker on Islam

#26  Postby Clive Durdle » May 19, 2015 5:25 pm

The school would have hopefully done some basic research so it is fascinating that they chose a small group of heretics!

Maybe they are the key group who are able to give a 'British Values" spin to Islam? I wonder if the Home Office is involved in promoting them......
"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
Clive Durdle
 
Name: Clive Durdle
Posts: 4812

Country: UK
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Grade 8 Guest speaker on Islam

#27  Postby HughMcB » May 19, 2015 5:27 pm

Onyx8 wrote:I'm sure they are sincere. They are also incorrect when they say things like: "There is no punishment for apostasy in Islam". There is, just not in their brand of Islam.

Exactly, which is my whole point. We need to move beyond this generalization because it only alienates the fuckload of Muslims who don't belief in brutal forms of retribution or dissemination.

I cringe when I see these sorts of posts, because out of the many friends I have who are Muslim, they are generally more altruistic and affable about their faith than most Christians I know.
"So we're just done with phrasing?"
User avatar
HughMcB
RS Donator
 
Posts: 19113
Age: 34
Male

Country: Canada
Ireland (ie)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Grade 8 Guest speaker on Islam

#28  Postby Clive Durdle » May 19, 2015 5:28 pm

Interestingly, another sect, the Ismalia ( you know - the lot who invented Assassins and who the Shah of iran was the leader of) are possibly better positioned to present a British Islam?
"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
Clive Durdle
 
Name: Clive Durdle
Posts: 4812

Country: UK
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Grade 8 Guest speaker on Islam

#29  Postby Shrunk » May 19, 2015 5:32 pm

The problem, it seems to me, is that RE is conceived with the goal of fostering respect and tolerance towards religious beliefs, rather than understanding religions and their history. Maybe that's not such a bad goal, but then they shouldn't call it Religious Education.
"A community is infinitely more brutalised by the habitual employment of punishment than it is by the occasional occurrence of crime." -Oscar Wilde
User avatar
Shrunk
 
Posts: 26164
Age: 54
Male

Country: Canada
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Grade 8 Guest speaker on Islam

#30  Postby NineBerry » May 19, 2015 5:37 pm

The Ahmadis have a strong presence in the area where I currently live. They are something like the Jehova Witnesses or Seventh Day Adventists of Islam.

With regard to the OP: The context of the lesson is important. If the context was a series of lessons where different people from outside come in and present their respective beliefs, I see no problem. If this was the only case of an external speaker and it was not presented as subjective but an objective accord, criticism is certainly called for.
User avatar
NineBerry
RS Donator
 
Posts: 5756
Age: 40
Male

Country: nSk
Print view this post

Re: Grade 8 Guest speaker on Islam

#31  Postby Bud's Brain » May 19, 2015 6:04 pm

Page 2.jpg
Page 2.jpg (1.89 MiB) Viewed 1094 times


Page 4.jpg
Page 4.jpg (1.76 MiB) Viewed 1094 times


Are these clear enough to read? For some reason, Page 3 is giving me error messages when I upload.
So many Christians, so few lions.
User avatar
Bud's Brain
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 360
Age: 45
Female

Country: United Kingdom
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Grade 8 Guest speaker on Islam

#32  Postby BlackBart » May 19, 2015 6:23 pm

HughMcB wrote:
BlackBart wrote:Ahmadiyya is basically an offshoot of Islam founded in India in the 18th Century and are, simplistically put, 'Muslims for Jesus' so they're generally looked down upon by orthodox muslims as heretics. They well may believe what they preach, but they don't speak for the whole of Islam, although they seem to think they do. Our resident Ahmadi seemed to have some kind of mental block when the problems with Islam in general were presented to him.

Which problems in particular (just generally interested)?


Off the top of my head the usual issues surrounding Aisha.

And are these positions that he espouses?


Not directly, but he stated he believed the hadiths were correct unless they conflicted with Quran.
You don't crucify people! Not on Good Friday! - Harold Shand
User avatar
BlackBart
 
Posts: 11493
Age: 56
Male

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Grade 8 Guest speaker on Islam

#33  Postby Clive Durdle » May 19, 2015 6:25 pm

No one is questioning it says this stuff - they are their beliefs as are found on their website and wiki confirms them.

But they are the beliefs of one group founded in India in the 1890's. You need a lot more context about why this group was invited. Quakers say similar stuff.
"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
Clive Durdle
 
Name: Clive Durdle
Posts: 4812

Country: UK
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Grade 8 Guest speaker on Islam

#34  Postby Bud's Brain » May 19, 2015 6:46 pm

Clive Durdle wrote:
The content of the pamphlet and the BS that the kids were told is un-fucking-believable.


I am angry about this, what precisely is sceptical about ill informed reactions?

I thought humanism is rationality with humanity. Is there a problem with researching context and nuance?


The case in point is a lecture from a (according to you- I haven't read through your info fully) fringe group of marginalised muslims. If that's so, they are hardly representative.

It is a perfectly rational deduction to state that, contrary to the contents of the lecture and pamphlet, I take issue with the veracity of their statements. Mainstream Islam is by faith, book and deed none of the things that this group says it is. I take issue with this underhanded attempt to sell a religion to teenagers or at least misrepresenting a belief system that is, from the ground up, dangerous to one's health.

Is my reaction ill informed? It makes no difference to me if they're the mild, medium or hot variety of Islam. Islam is dangerous. Toleration leaves space for people who fly into buildings. There is no 'good' Islam.
So many Christians, so few lions.
User avatar
Bud's Brain
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 360
Age: 45
Female

Country: United Kingdom
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Grade 8 Guest speaker on Islam

#35  Postby HughMcB » May 19, 2015 6:57 pm

Bud's Brain wrote:Mainstream Islam is by faith, book and deed none of the things that this group says it is. I take issue with this underhanded attempt to sell a religion to teenagers or at least misrepresenting a belief system that is, from the ground up, dangerous to one's health.

Replace Islam with Christianity, and you've just described most mainstream Christian denominations i.e. not representative of the books, and dangerous to one's health.
"So we're just done with phrasing?"
User avatar
HughMcB
RS Donator
 
Posts: 19113
Age: 34
Male

Country: Canada
Ireland (ie)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Grade 8 Guest speaker on Islam

#36  Postby Bud's Brain » May 19, 2015 6:59 pm

Shrunk wrote:The problem, it seems to me, is that RE is conceived with the goal of fostering respect and tolerance towards religious beliefs, rather than understanding religions and their history. Maybe that's not such a bad goal, but then they shouldn't call it Religious Education.


I completely agree. If it was billed as, for instance, 'we've invited a representative of a not-very-representative sect of Islam to talk to you. Next week is Rosicrucianism and after that, a cargo cult'.

For good or bad, I'm raising my daughter to be leery of religion - whatever it's called. She is expected to be courteous but NOT respectful of religious beliefs.
So many Christians, so few lions.
User avatar
Bud's Brain
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 360
Age: 45
Female

Country: United Kingdom
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Grade 8 Guest speaker on Islam

#37  Postby Bud's Brain » May 19, 2015 7:00 pm

HughMcB wrote:
Bud's Brain wrote:Mainstream Islam is by faith, book and deed none of the things that this group says it is. I take issue with this underhanded attempt to sell a religion to teenagers or at least misrepresenting a belief system that is, from the ground up, dangerous to one's health.

Replace Islam with Christianity, and you've just described most mainstream Christian denominations i.e. not representative of the books, and dangerous to one's health.


Yes, I know. Exactly.
So many Christians, so few lions.
User avatar
Bud's Brain
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 360
Age: 45
Female

Country: United Kingdom
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Grade 8 Guest speaker on Islam

#38  Postby Bud's Brain » May 19, 2015 7:07 pm

Page 4.jpg
Page 4.jpg (1.76 MiB) Viewed 1076 times

Page 4 - Islam's view on terrorism

Page 5.jpg
Page 5.jpg (1.73 MiB) Viewed 1076 times

Page 5 - Are women inferior to me in Islam

Page 7.jpg
Page 7.jpg (1.78 MiB) Viewed 1076 times

Page 7 Punishment for apostasy and blasphemy
So many Christians, so few lions.
User avatar
Bud's Brain
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 360
Age: 45
Female

Country: United Kingdom
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Grade 8 Guest speaker on Islam

#39  Postby Bud's Brain » May 19, 2015 7:08 pm

Page 8.jpg
Page 8.jpg (1.73 MiB) Viewed 1076 times


Sect info
So many Christians, so few lions.
User avatar
Bud's Brain
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 360
Age: 45
Female

Country: United Kingdom
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Grade 8 Guest speaker on Islam

#40  Postby Bud's Brain » May 19, 2015 7:16 pm

Evolving wrote:We used to have a "peaceful Ahmadi Muslim" here (as well as a thread hilariously spoofing him/them).

I daresay it's an accurate representation of their particular (very particular) version of Islam.


Makes me think of the Achmed the Terrorist!
So many Christians, so few lions.
User avatar
Bud's Brain
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 360
Age: 45
Female

Country: United Kingdom
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

PreviousNext

Return to Parenting & Education

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 2 guests