Scot Dutchy wrote:I agree about the islam bit but it is an exact example of what is wrong allowing any speaker from a sect to speak to kids. It is misinformation because it is impossible to give all sides of the story. Which is why it should never happen.

Agreed. Do you think I should insist that the school invites a mainstream speaker to speak to the kids? Perhaps a slew of other religions, too. I have asked if they will allow a secular speaker. I can't do that, though.

Bud's Brain wrote:

Scot Dutchy wrote:I agree about the islam bit but it is an exact example of what is wrong allowing any speaker from a sect to speak to kids. It is misinformation because it is impossible to give all sides of the story. Which is why it should never happen.

Agreed. Do you think I should insist that the school invites a mainstream speaker to speak to the kids? Perhaps a slew of other religions, too. I have asked if they will allow a secular speaker. I can't do that, though.

You could produce the list of 41,000+ xtian sects just to prove the point and to show how ridiculous it is to pick one sect.
How about Buddhists, Hindus and secularists? The list is so enormous the kids will have finished school long before the end of the list is reached.

Here is the list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations

Well, in that case, it would perhaps be best to invite a person who has a reasonable knowledge of the basics of most religions, someone who hasn't an axe to grind.

Erm, an atheist, perhaps?

Bud's Brain wrote:

Scot Dutchy wrote:I agree about the islam bit but it is an exact example of what is wrong allowing any speaker from a sect to speak to kids. It is misinformation because it is impossible to give all sides of the story. Which is why it should never happen.

Agreed. Do you think I should insist that the school invites a mainstream speaker to speak to the kids? Perhaps a slew of other religions, too. I have asked if they will allow a secular speaker. I can't do that, though.

You think a "mainstream" Islamic speaker is going to say "Sure, yeah, in Islam we believe in beating your wives, and killing apostates, and all that stuff. We follow a violent, blood thirsty religion"? You kids will get the same sort of lecture they're getting from the Ahmadi.

For the record, I don't think someone should be going into the class and telling students Islam is all that stuff, either. The UK school system needs to figure out what RE is actually supposed to be. As it is, it seems like it is treated as either a license to proselytize or as a means to keep the kids supervised while the regular teachers take a break. (Again, just based on what I hear about it hear on the board.)

Bud's Brain wrote:My concern is that the school did not inform the children of this nor has there been any additional information about mainstream Islam. Specifically, the Islam they were introduced to is a very fuzzy, gentle version that is not even on the same spectrum as average and extremist practitioners.

You nearly had me on board but then, splat.

I would say it IS on the same spectrum. Why? Because I know a fuck ton of "average" practitioners and I can tell you they are far more on board with this type of Islam then they are with throwing acid in girl's faces and stoning women for getting raped.

What do you consider "average"?

Bud's Brain wrote:I would not be nearly as high up on my horse if lectures from 'normal' muslims were planned. Ideally, an ISIS twit would be perfect. I do think that our children need to be educated about the risks inherent in religion and specifically in Islam.

An ISIS twit would in NO way be a normal Muslim.

Bud's Brain wrote:

I'm still not understanding this.

What exactly is the problem...
1) what is written in the holy texts?
2) what is taught from the holy texts? or
3) what is practiced from the holy texts?

I think the simple is answer to 1, 2 and 3 is Yes, I have a problem with 1, 2 and 3, although that's not a reaction to the OP.

So you have a problem with;
1) what is written in the holy texts -> ok then what about Christianity/Judaism?
2) what is taught from the holy texts -> see above
3) what is practiced from the holy texts -> again in many cases (just like Islam) see above.

So do you condemn all eqaully? Because if you hate the texts then they all deserve your hate. And if you hate the teachings then what about the one billion odd Catholic in the world? If you hate the practices then what about the countless Christians and Jews who oppress, maim and kill for their faith?

See i've probed enough now to know the issue here is you want to equate (as you've done numerous times) extremist Muslims with moderate (i.e. mainstream/normal/average) Mulsims, and I hate to tell you, but they just fucking aren't the same thing.

Perhaps describing the warm and fuzzy Islam discussed in the OP as not on the same spectrum of moderate and extreme Islam is inaccurate. I suppose I should really think it through more in light of your questioning. My original stance was based on the assumption that the warm and fuzzy version won't become radicalised whereas moderate Islam can and does become extreme.

So you have a problem with;
1) what is written in the holy texts -> ok then what about Christianity/Judaism?
2) what is taught from the holy texts -> see above
3) what is practiced from the holy texts -> again in many cases (just like Islam) see above.

So do you condemn all eqaully? Because if you hate the texts then they all deserve your hate.

The answers to 1, 2 and 3 are for all religions and all religious texts. In this, I'm not bigotted at all - I dislike all equally and hold their beliefs in contempt. Moderate practitioners who believe deeply and firmly are potential half trained Boeing pilots.

What do you consider "average"?

I wasn't implying that ISIS twits are average. That the entire planet is not at war suggests that the majority of muslims are not militant, i.e are moderate. I'll use that as a benchmark of sorts.

I remain confused, though - I really don't know what my next steps should be. I can't undo the lecture the kids have already heard, finding a mythical moderate muslim doesn't seem possible and my daughter and I will be expelled if I get in there and present an atheistic agenda. And really, since it is Religious Education, that kinda implies that actual religions are to be discussed. Atheism doesn't qualify.

In the end it doesn't matter what they say they believe in.. Allah doesn't exist, Muhammad was a bad man, end of fairy tale.

Unfortunately, I didn't get to meet with the school. I was busy, then they were busy and now the end of the year is happening. I'll be able to pick this up again in the new school year. *rubs hands and laughs maniacally*

Bud's Brain wrote:So my daughter comes home with a pamphlet given to her by the guest speaker, with the title:
Some Frequently Asked Questions about Islam
1. What is Jihad
2. What is Islam's view on Terrorism
3. What is Islam's view on obedience to the Law of the Land
4. What is the punishment for blasphemy in Islam
5. What is the punishment for apostasy is Islam
and 2 others

The content of the pamphlet and the BS that the kids were told is un-fucking-believable.

Islam is a religion of peace and muslims are instructed to 'turn the other cheek' (forgive the phrase).
Islam instructs muslims to abide by the laws of the land and the laws of the prophet.
Women are not inferior to men in Islam
No punishment for apostasy
No punishment for blasphemy

Produced by something called the Ahmadiyya Muslim Association UK

Probably needless to say, but I've made an appointment to meet with the head and RE teachers.

That is in accordance with Ahmadiyya beliefs, but it's still just flat out wrong for religions to have access to kids to extol the merits of their faith. It's no different than having Coca Cola come and advertize at the kids. That's not why parents or society has their kids go to school.

HughMcB wrote:I guess before people start jumping down my throat with "well it clearly says apostates are to be killed" etc. etc. etc., I would like to point out that the bible clearly states lots of shit too. Yet many Christian denominations either reject, omit or de facto ignore certain doctrinal beliefs and people don't chastise them for it, they generally encourage it.

We don't know what this group of Muslims believe, we don't know if they have interpreted these negative passages essentially out of existence, or rendered them redundant. All we know is what it says on the pamphlet that was given. And we know that there are a huge number of interpretations of these books. So if you'd like to learn more, then I would suggest contacting these people directly. Or maybe telling your child, "well these particular Muslims might believe this, but not all do. Some believe x, y, z?".

Spot on HughMcB - this is really what the Ahmadiyya sect believes. This is what they preach. While it's a version of Islam I'd much prefer to see than other sects, they still have no place being in a school foisting off their sectarian dreck and antiquated mumbo-jumbo.