Grade 8 Guest speaker on Islam

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Grade 8 Guest speaker on Islam

#1  Postby Bud's Brain » May 19, 2015 3:47 pm

So my daughter comes home with a pamphlet given to her by the guest speaker, with the title:
Some Frequently Asked Questions about Islam
1. What is Jihad
2. What is Islam's view on Terrorism
3. What is Islam's view on obedience to the Law of the Land
4. What is the punishment for blasphemy in Islam
5. What is the punishment for apostasy is Islam
and 2 others

The content of the pamphlet and the BS that the kids were told is un-fucking-believable.

Islam is a religion of peace and muslims are instructed to 'turn the other cheek' (forgive the phrase).
Islam instructs muslims to abide by the laws of the land and the laws of the prophet.
Women are not inferior to men in Islam
No punishment for apostasy
No punishment for blasphemy

Produced by something called the Ahmadiyya Muslim Association UK

Probably needless to say, but I've made an appointment to meet with the head and RE teachers.

:nono: :-x :argh:
So many Christians, so few lions.
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Re: Grade 8 Guest speaker on Islam

#2  Postby Blip » May 19, 2015 3:56 pm

I most certainly applaud your decision to discuss this dangerous - and clearly misleading - propaganda with the head teacher. Have you thought about the governors as well?
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Re: Grade 8 Guest speaker on Islam

#3  Postby Animavore » May 19, 2015 3:56 pm

I'd be miffed if my kids came home with a factually wrong pamphlet.
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Re: Grade 8 Guest speaker on Islam

#4  Postby Alan B » May 19, 2015 4:06 pm

In what area is this school?
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Re: Grade 8 Guest speaker on Islam

#5  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 19, 2015 4:07 pm

I'm all for comparative religion in school, but this sounds like plain propaganda and misinformation to me.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Grade 8 Guest speaker on Islam

#6  Postby Evolving » May 19, 2015 4:11 pm

We used to have a "peaceful Ahmadi Muslim" here (as well as a thread hilariously spoofing him/them).

I daresay it's an accurate representation of their particular (very particular) version of Islam.
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Re: Grade 8 Guest speaker on Islam

#7  Postby Bud's Brain » May 19, 2015 4:12 pm

Blip wrote:I most certainly applaud your decision to discuss this dangerous - and clearly misleading - propaganda with the head teacher. Have you thought about the governors as well?


Hmm. I've calmed down a bit, so hopefully I'll be able to behave calmly and rationally. My dilemma is actually that I'm not muslim so the data I'm preparing for the meeting will not have much impact. I didn't think about the governors. I'll look into it. What I need is a secular speaker to address the BS the kids heard.

Mind you, perhaps I'm worrying too much: my daughter asked loads of questions and was told by her peers to 'stop asking so many questions'. Perhaps nothing soaked in to their determinedly teenage brains.
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Re: Grade 8 Guest speaker on Islam

#8  Postby Bud's Brain » May 19, 2015 4:13 pm

Alan B wrote:In what area is this school?


Bracknell Forest Council (Berkshire) - Sandhurst School
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Re: Grade 8 Guest speaker on Islam

#9  Postby Bud's Brain » May 19, 2015 4:15 pm

Animavore wrote:I'd be miffed if my kids came home with a factually wrong pamphlet.


When I have some time, I'll type up the whole thing - all in all, it's probably about 2 x A4.
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Re: Grade 8 Guest speaker on Islam

#10  Postby Bud's Brain » May 19, 2015 4:20 pm

Oh, I left off one of the questions' answers - what is jihad
According to this pamphlet, it is:
struggle for self-reformation
duty of muslims to convey te true message of Islam to others
Spending of one's wealth to help the needy
the defensive battle (this is apparently the lower order ??)
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Re: Grade 8 Guest speaker on Islam

#11  Postby HughMcB » May 19, 2015 4:47 pm

Bud's Brain wrote:Islam is a religion of peace and muslims are instructed to 'turn the other cheek' (forgive the phrase).
Islam instructs muslims to abide by the laws of the land and the laws of the prophet.
Women are not inferior to men in Islam
No punishment for apostasy
No punishment for blasphemy

I think before we delve too much further into this we need to ask, which particular flavour of Islam are we talking about?

Because Islam is not just one doctrine. Firstly, it is completely decentralized, far more so than Christianity. There aren't even large bodies who preside over any particular brand like in Christianity. No one is really in charge. Sure people can associate with being say, Sunni or Shi'ite, but these terms don't particularly describe doctrine very well as belief structures within this vary greatly.

In Islam, people subscribe to the teachings of a particular Imam, who is not even formally trained. They're just a person who has gained notoriety as being an authority on the teachings of the prophet and therefore people subscribe to their teachings. This person in turn, probably is based out of some mosque or couple of mosques (essentially crowd funded by the local Muslim community and operated on a voluntary basis by said community to act as a place of prayer and focal point for all sorts of community based activities). This Imam teaches their interpretation of the Koran and Hadiths (although for some the latter can be more important, less important or dropped altogether) to their particular congregation.

So while we're all here condemning Islam, I'd like to firstly ask, well which one? Cause if we're pissed about the books saying kill this person or rape that person, then we'd need to be equally pissed about Christianity and Judaism. And if holding people at fault for a particular brand of Islam then we'd have to do the same for Christians, right?

Like saying, "Hey, Unitarians! Why are Christians diddling kids?!" :mob:
Cause that makes sense.

So perhaps firstly we need to acknowledge that not all Muslims are alike in their belief and not all Islam is alike in it's teachings. Not all Sunnis or Shi'ites are alike, and in fact not all Islamic communities from one congregation to the next are alike. As I stated before, it is far less organized and far more decentralized that Christianity. So to simply dismiss the above points given in this pamphlet, because somehow you know better than this particular congregation about their interpretation of their religion is, quite frankly, fucking dumb.

However if you're telling me that you are equally protesting Christian groups for saying "Jesus champions the poor" and "Christianity is about embracing those in need" as being totally counter intuitive claims to the doctrine, then at least you're being consistent in your quest to generalize one billion people. :coffee:

Bud's Brain wrote:Probably needless to say, but I've made an appointment to meet with the head and RE teachers.

:nono: :-x :argh:

Great, maybe you can ask them to put you in touch with this particular Islamic community and you can have a chat with them directly about their particular brand of beliefs.

Maybe if they're not hiding homemade explosives in the basement or prowling the streets gang raping girls, you can reassess your position somewhat. :thumbup:
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Re: Grade 8 Guest speaker on Islam

#12  Postby HughMcB » May 19, 2015 4:49 pm

Blip wrote:I most certainly applaud your decision to discuss this dangerous - and clearly misleading - propaganda with the head teacher.

As much as expressing one's interpretation of a religious text is propaganda of course.
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Re: Grade 8 Guest speaker on Islam

#13  Postby HughMcB » May 19, 2015 4:50 pm

Bud's Brain wrote:
Animavore wrote:I'd be miffed if my kids came home with a factually wrong pamphlet.


When I have some time, I'll type up the whole thing - all in all, it's probably about 2 x A4.

Take a picture and post it. Might save some time.
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Re: Grade 8 Guest speaker on Islam

#14  Postby HughMcB » May 19, 2015 4:55 pm

I guess before people start jumping down my throat with "well it clearly says apostates are to be killed" etc. etc. etc., I would like to point out that the bible clearly states lots of shit too. Yet many Christian denominations either reject, omit or de facto ignore certain doctrinal beliefs and people don't chastise them for it, they generally encourage it.

We don't know what this group of Muslims believe, we don't know if they have interpreted these negative passages essentially out of existence, or rendered them redundant. All we know is what it says on the pamphlet that was given. And we know that there are a huge number of interpretations of these books. So if you'd like to learn more, then I would suggest contacting these people directly. Or maybe telling your child, "well these particular Muslims might believe this, but not all do. Some believe x, y, z?".
Last edited by HughMcB on May 19, 2015 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Grade 8 Guest speaker on Islam

#15  Postby Onyx8 » May 19, 2015 4:56 pm

HughMcB wrote:
Bud's Brain wrote:Islam is a religion of peace and muslims are instructed to 'turn the other cheek' (forgive the phrase).
Islam instructs muslims to abide by the laws of the land and the laws of the prophet.
Women are not inferior to men in Islam
No punishment for apostasy
No punishment for blasphemy

I think before we delve too much further into this we need to ask, which particular flavour of Islam are we talking about?



From the OP:

"Produced by something called the Ahmadiyya Muslim Association UK"
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Re: Grade 8 Guest speaker on Islam

#16  Postby HughMcB » May 19, 2015 4:58 pm

Onyx8 wrote:"Produced by something called the Ahmadiyya Muslim Association UK"

So? What exactly does that mean?

They have "UK" written as a part of their non-profit or business name? Oh silly me I guess they speak for all Muslims in the UK then.
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Re: Grade 8 Guest speaker on Islam

#17  Postby Clive Durdle » May 19, 2015 5:06 pm

Ahmadiyya Muslim Association UK


This is a seriously oppressed minority group, considered by mainstream muslims to be heretics and apostates who do get punished with the death penalty.

The pamphlet sounds like an attempt to square circles, and should not be criticised directly, but its context very well understood.
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Re: Grade 8 Guest speaker on Islam

#18  Postby Clive Durdle » May 19, 2015 5:09 pm

Ahmadiyya (/ɑːməˈdiʲə/;[1] officially the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community or the Ahmadiyya Muslim Jama'at; Arabic: الجماعة الإسلامية الأحمدية‎, transliterated: al-Jamā'ah al-Islāmiyyah al-Aḥmadiyyah) is an Islamic religious movement founded in British India near the end of the 19th century.[2][3] It originated with the life and teachings of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (1835–1908), who claimed to have fulfilled the prophecies of the world's reformer during the end times, who was to herald the eschaton as predicted in the traditions of various world religions and bring about the final triumph of Islam as per Islamic prophecy. He claimed that he was the Mujaddid (divine reformer) of the 14th Islamic century, the promised Messiah and Mahdi awaited by Muslims.[4][5][6][7] The adherents of the Ahmadiyya movement are referred to as Ahmadi Muslims or simply Ahmadis.

Ahmadi thought emphasizes the belief that Islam is the final dispensation for humanity as revealed to Muhammad and the necessity of restoring to it its true essence and pristine form, which had been lost through the centuries.[8] Ahmadiyya adherents believe that Ahmad appeared in the likeness of Jesus, to end religious wars, condemn bloodshed and reinstitute morality, justice, and peace. They believe that upon divine guidance he divested Islam of fanatical and innovative beliefs and practices by championing what is, in their view, Islam’s true and essential teachings as practised by Muhammad and the early Islamic community.[9] Thus, Ahmadis view themselves as leading the revival and peaceful propagation of Islam.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad founded the movement on 23 March 1889 and termed it the Ahmadiyya Muslim Jama'at, sometimes translated as Ahmadiyya Muslim Community. Since his death, the community has been led by a number of Caliphs and has expanded to over 200 countries and territories of the world. The Ahmadis were among the earliest Muslim communities to arrive in Britain and other Western countries.[8] Currently, the community is led by its Caliph, Mirza Masroor Ahmad, and is officially estimated to number between 10 and 20 million worldwide.[10][11][12]

The population is almost entirely contained in the single, highly organized and united movement. In this sense there is only one major branch. However, in the early history of the community, a number of Ahmadis broke away over the nature of Ahmad's prophethood and succession and formed the Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement which today represents a small fraction of all Ahmadis. Some Ahmadiyya-specific beliefs have been thought of as opposed to contemporary mainstream Islamic thought since the movement's birth, and some Ahmadis have subsequently faced persecution.[7][12][13][14] Most orthodox Muslims have denounced Ahmadis as kafirs or heretics, and mainstream Islam generally considers them to be non-Muslims.[15][16][17][18][19]


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Re: Grade 8 Guest speaker on Islam

#19  Postby Onyx8 » May 19, 2015 5:09 pm

HughMcB wrote:
Onyx8 wrote:"Produced by something called the Ahmadiyya Muslim Association UK"

So? What exactly does that mean?

They have "UK" written as a part of their non-profit or business name? Oh silly me I guess they speak for all Muslims in the UK then.


It was the "Ahmadiyya" bit I was directing you to. You asked: "which particular flavour of Islam are we talking about?" I showed you.
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Re: Grade 8 Guest speaker on Islam

#20  Postby Clive Durdle » May 19, 2015 5:14 pm

The content of the pamphlet and the BS that the kids were told is un-fucking-believable.


I am angry about this, what precisely is sceptical about ill informed reactions?

I thought humanism is rationality with humanity. Is there a problem with researching context and nuance?
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