Binky wrote:Addendum: He stayed with us today, and scratched my daughters face and became unmanageable without kicking very hard at my wife or myself, he broke my wifes finger, (an eight hour visit to hospital), and my legs are black and blue. My two year old son who is very robust, will not play with him any more and is scared of him.

Why on earth did you allow him in your house in the first damn place?
I hope that now you'll not allow him to stay over until his parents get their shit together.

Valden wrote:

Binky wrote:Addendum: He stayed with us today, and scratched my daughters face and became unmanageable without kicking very hard at my wife or myself, he broke my wifes finger, (an eight hour visit to hospital), and my legs are black and blue. My two year old son who is very robust, will not play with him any more and is scared of him.

Why on earth did you allow him in your house in the first damn place?
I hope that now you'll not allow him to stay over until his parents get their shit together.

Yeah, got to agree with this, enoughs enough, this little boy needs help as does his mum

Paula1 wrote:

Valden wrote:

Binky wrote:Addendum: He stayed with us today, and scratched my daughters face and became unmanageable without kicking very hard at my wife or myself, he broke my wifes finger, (an eight hour visit to hospital), and my legs are black and blue. My two year old son who is very robust, will not play with him any more and is scared of him.

Why on earth did you allow him in your house in the first damn place?
I hope that now you'll not allow him to stay over until his parents get their shit together.

Yeah, got to agree with this, enoughs enough, this little boy needs help as does his mum

My feeling would be that the boy doesn't need any help, he is simply responding to circumstance laid before him.

The focus needs to be the Mother and the Father.

John

Agree with others above, no matter how much it hurts thats it I think, he can't be in your house anymore. Certainly your children can't be subjected to this and neither should your wife.

Does he understand what he did? Has he shown any remorse for hurting your wife or previously when he's hurt your children?

If you have the time outside of family life to help this boy without depriving your kids and wife of time with you then I think one on one out of the house should be your only contact right now. Also I would get in direct contact with his social worker if you're not already, attend meetings/visits with your daughter etc. Does the social worker even know the full story, is your daughter passing these incidents on to him/her? How does your daughter react when you tell her about the incidents?

My sister has an in-law who has proved herself to be a lazy incompetent parent, with her 3 young children on social services radar and her 4th baby in hospital due to be taken in to foster care any day now. My sister and her other half (the babys uncle) are unable to take the child themselves but are thrashing out a deal at the moment with social services for them to be respite carers when the baby goes into foster care, giving them a reasonable amount of contact and hands on care. I'm reluctant to say your grandson should go into care but if it comes to it then it may be an option for your family.

z8000783 wrote:

Paula1 wrote:

Valden wrote:

Binky wrote:Addendum: He stayed with us today, and scratched my daughters face and became unmanageable without kicking very hard at my wife or myself, he broke my wifes finger, (an eight hour visit to hospital), and my legs are black and blue. My two year old son who is very robust, will not play with him any more and is scared of him.

Why on earth did you allow him in your house in the first damn place?
I hope that now you'll not allow him to stay over until his parents get their shit together.

Yeah, got to agree with this, enoughs enough, this little boy needs help as does his mum

My feeling would be that the boy doesn't need any help, he is simply responding to circumstance laid before him.

The focus needs to be the Mother and the Father.

John

While the focus absolutely needs to be on the parents the child will need help, this child has obviously been damaged by his parents poor parenting skills and will almost certainly need help to overcome the damage

The child himself appears to have resorted to violence as a coping mechanism, this really needs to be addressed, he's not tiny anymore, he must be at school and if the violence causes him to be excluded from school it will then have a negative consequence on his education which, if left too long may never be reversed

It may well take more than a few parenting or therapy courses for mum to repair the psychological damage done to the child, this child is crying out for attention and has no idea how to obtain it in a healthy rewarding manner, this cannot be taught by a less than adequate mother

Hi, from your very first post ADHD was screaming out at me. You say that social services are involved - have they/the school/the GP put in place a referral to CAHMs? (Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services) - they can be very helpful in terms of supporting families of kids with ADHD.

By the way - ADHD can not be caused by 'poor parenting', and it can't be fixed by 'good parenting' - but 'good' parenting and the right support can make managing behaviour an awful lot easier.

I think that your most important role as his grandparent right now is not to fix his behaviour but rather to support your daughter in getting the best help and support for her son. Unfortunately it can be very difficult to navigate 'the system'. How proactive has your daughter been in terms of seeking help?

Also, there is a myriad of advice and support available on the www, mumsnet has a special needs section with some very wise and experienced people on there.

Good luck, it must be a very difficult situation for you all.

Binky wrote:Thanks Valden, you are right about the language skills, maybe he is frustrated, while he is screaming though we talk to him and tell him how irrational his actions are. This prompts him to scream harder. He has hit my daughter with a glass and a knife and has tried to stab my two year old son 'because he is little'.

He sounds like he has more problems than simply not being "disciplined." I assume he's had thorough neuropsych evaluations?

Does he have any other strange behaviours?
Such as "Special interests"? Meaning is there something he gets involved with on a deep and all-consuming level. Does he know all about trains, or busses, or planes? Anything like that?
Does he wave his fingers or hands in the air when frustrated, but before going into a fit?
Does he have trouble with eye-contact?
Does he have trouble reading peoples intentions from the tome of their voice or facial expression?
Is he capable of sitting still and focus on something that interest him for extended periods of time?
Or is he flighty and not able to keep focus on anything for more than a few minutes?

Because it sounds as if he has problems beyond simply being misbehaved.

Globe wrote:Does he have any other strange behaviours?
Such as "Special interests"? Meaning is there something he gets involved with on a deep and all-consuming level. Does he know all about trains, or busses, or planes? Anything like that?
Does he wave his fingers or hands in the air when frustrated, but before going into a fit?
Does he have trouble with eye-contact?
Does he have trouble reading peoples intentions from the tome of their voice or facial expression?
Is he capable of sitting still and focus on something that interest him for extended periods of time?
Or is he flighty and not able to keep focus on anything for more than a few minutes?

Because it sounds as if he has problems beyond simply being misbehaved.

He is a nice little boy, but has no language skills and is very aggressive.

From what you have said, it doesn't sound like the "nice little boy" appears very often. When is he this nice little boy?

The fact that he has no language skills is a huge warning signal to me. What does this mean in practical terms? Does he simply not speak, does he use single words (e.g. yes, no, more) or is he using simple sentences, but not at the level of a two year old. A six year old boy who cannot speak needs outside help. If he's in school, he might be able to get help through the school-- if he's not already.

I do not necessarily associate violence at this age with something inherently wonky in the child. It sounds like he's learned that tantrums pay off-- this is a six year old having two-year-old-style tantrums. Because he's so big, it's become dangerous. (If you want to have him around, I would suggest taking the other children out that day. He might benefit simply from having one-on-one with an adult to show him how to be.)

Julia wrote:

Globe wrote:Does he have any other strange behaviours?
Such as "Special interests"? Meaning is there something he gets involved with on a deep and all-consuming level. Does he know all about trains, or busses, or planes? Anything like that?
Does he wave his fingers or hands in the air when frustrated, but before going into a fit?
Does he have trouble with eye-contact?
Does he have trouble reading peoples intentions from the tome of their voice or facial expression?
Is he capable of sitting still and focus on something that interest him for extended periods of time?
Or is he flighty and not able to keep focus on anything for more than a few minutes?

Because it sounds as if he has problems beyond simply being misbehaved.

+1

And has he had his hearing checked?

Poor lad. But also poor you, Binky.

Binky wrote:She is currently in a program with the school where she receives a chocolate every time he behaves well at home,!!!!.

Sounds like there isn't much hope of good, qualified help from there then. Ask them if he can be referred to an educational psychologist. Or has he already seen one? Who diagnosed ADHD? That's a horrible catch-all diagnosis for a boy to be given, and medication probably doesn't help him much at all.

Teshi wrote:

He is a nice little boy, but has no language skills and is very aggressive.

From what you have said, it doesn't sound like the "nice little boy" appears very often. When is he this nice little boy?

The fact that he has no language skills is a huge warning signal to me. What does this mean in practical terms? Does he simply not speak, does he use single words (e.g. yes, no, more) or is he using simple sentences, but not at the level of a two year old. A six year old boy who cannot speak needs outside help. If he's in school, he might be able to get help through the school-- if he's not already.

I do not necessarily associate violence at this age with something inherently wonky in the child. It sounds like he's learned that tantrums pay off-- this is a six year old having two-year-old-style tantrums. Because he's so big, it's become dangerous. (If you want to have him around, I would suggest taking the other children out that day. He might benefit simply from having one-on-one with an adult to show him how to be.)

Another question, Binky. Does your daughter work, and was he sent to a nursery when he was very little?

Globe wrote:Does he have any other strange behaviours?
Such as "Special interests"? Meaning is there something he gets involved with on a deep and all-consuming level. Does he know all about trains, or busses, or planes? Anything like that?
Does he wave his fingers or hands in the air when frustrated, but before going into a fit?
Does he have trouble with eye-contact?
Does he have trouble reading peoples intentions from the tome of their voice or facial expression?
Is he capable of sitting still and focus on something that interest him for extended periods of time?
Or is he flighty and not able to keep focus on anything for more than a few minutes?

Because it sounds as if he has problems beyond simply being misbehaved.

These are exactly the questions I was going to ask!

Binky, Please look into the sign and symptoms of Autism and see if it relates to your grandson. I'm not promising that it is definitely an issue, but, it is a common co-morbid of ADHD and often the two are mis-identified, and if it is then it needs to be handled correctly.
As the mother of a 6 year old autistic child myself I can honestly say that what works best for dealing with neuro-typical children often has the opposite effect on an autistic child.

I wish you and your family the best of luck, Dealing with a child with challenging behaviour is never easy!

Binky wrote:Addendum: He stayed with us today, and scratched my daughters face and became unmanageable without kicking very hard at my wife or myself, he broke my wifes finger, (an eight hour visit to hospital), and my legs are black and blue. My two year old son who is very robust, will not play with him any more and is scared of him.

The question is if he can break your wife's finger what could he do to a 2 year old boy. I'd keep him away from your kids at well, frankly all costs. Until this errant behaviour has been properly diagnosed and treated. Then be seen to have been working for some time. You have the safety of your own family to be considered before anything else.

This is coming from an ex 6 year old kid who was hideously well behaved, personable and unendurably cute and with no experience whatsoever with "Challenging Behaviour". Good job nobody spotted the "666" mark on my scalp. Thank goodness the barber never cut my then delicious blonde locks that close

Hello, and thank you all for replying. With regard to my wife's finger, he slammed a door on it as she was trying to open it to put him on the step.
My missus has decided that we won't have him back at our home, and I can't blame her, her daughter was born when she was seventeen, and she is blaming herself for this situation as she feels she was too young. Honestly though, I've known her for fifteen years, (quite a while proportion of that when we weren't together), and she has been a very selfless parent.
Our grandson is being put with a carer who has dealt with problem behaviours, I hope he benefits, although part of me hopes there is something medically the matter with him that he can be treated for. Its a sorry situation for everyone, and I am a little relieved too.(feel guilty about that).

Binky wrote:
Our grandson is being put with a carer who has dealt with problem behaviours, I hope he benefits, although part of me hopes there is something medically the matter with him that he can be treated for.

Does the carer have professional training in dealing with problem behaviors (i.e. applied behavior analysis) or is it just a nanny that has looked after kids with problems before? If the latter then I doubt you'll see much improvement. Whilst behavioral issues aren't technically a "medical" problem, they are still relatively easy to fix like I described in my last post a few pages back. If you don't see any improvement after a couple of weeks with the "carer" then I'd recommend getting someone who has studied and worked as a behavioral therapist because even just at a glance, despite being severe, the kid's behavioral problems don't seem difficult at all to solve..

Kinky J wrote:Binky, Please look into the sign and symptoms of Autism and see if it relates to your grandson.

While I don't think it's a bad idea to look into, I just want to note that aggressive behavior like stabbing with knives and breaking fingers is not particularly indicative of Autism spectrum as opposed to other behavioral problems.

Warren Dew wrote:

Kinky J wrote:Binky, Please look into the sign and symptoms of Autism and see if it relates to your grandson.

While I don't think it's a bad idea to look into, I just want to note that aggressive behavior like stabbing with knives and breaking fingers is not particularly indicative of Autism spectrum as opposed to other behavioral problems.

I can see where you are coming from, as violence and Autism don't always go hand in hand, but if it is a co-morbid condition alongside the ADHD and is not being handled correctly then violence is the most common outlet a 6 year old has to release the frustration of being out of sync with the world (for want of a better term) compounded by uncontrollable energy and short attention span.

As I said before, I'm not saying this is a definite cause of his behaviour. However, knowing what I now know from personal experience, I would want to find out either way as trying to use mainstream methods of teaching and discipline on an autistic child can have long term repercussions, whereas if it is a mental health or behavioural issue mainstream methods should work when augmented with some individually tailored interventions and maintained consistently.

Have you ever seen one of those ads for that guy who says he has the answer to kids' behavior problems that'll "put an end" to the talking back, the acting out, the arguing and complaining and disrespect, blah, blah, blah... in mere minutes!?

I sometimes imagine that you send in your $19.95 and what comes back in the mail is a big, long box with a baseball bat in it.

I don't know about a bat but there has been times I've longed for a remote control for my kids, complete with mute and pause functions!

Binky wrote:Addendum: He stayed with us today, and scratched my daughters face and became unmanageable without kicking very hard at my wife or myself, he broke my wifes finger, (an eight hour visit to hospital), and my legs are black and blue. My two year old son who is very robust, will not play with him any more and is scared of him.

It's harsh, but for the safety of your own children, you need to ban that boy from your house until his mother can step up to the task of being a parent.