Thomas Eshuis wrote:

The_Metatron wrote:

Thomas Eshuis wrote:

laklak wrote:6 of the best, that will sort them.

I probably wouldn't go that far. But, I would relieve them of some of their leisure time.

I don't get what laklak means to say?
6 of the best what?

6 lashes of the belt (across the arse)

Thomas Eshuis wrote:I don't get what laklak means to say?
6 of the best what?

It's a phrase associated with corporal punishment in British schools: "six of the best".

ETA: ninja'd

Thomas Eshuis wrote:If you read carefully, I asked the student who else was involved and he would not say.
I said, that, until he does tell who else was involved, he's the only one I know who was and therefore the only one who'd be punished.

Punishing someone for doing the right thing?

SkyMutt wrote:

Thomas Eshuis wrote:I don't get what laklak means to say?
6 of the best what?

It's a phrase associated with corporal punishment in British schools: "six of the best".

ETA: ninja'd

But with links! LINKS!

Strontium Dog wrote:

Thomas Eshuis wrote:If you read carefully, I asked the student who else was involved and he would not say.
I said, that, until he does tell who else was involved, he's the only one I know who was and therefore the only one who'd be punished.

Punishing someone for doing the right thing?

I don't know in what weird kind of education system you grew up, but covering up for bad behaviour of fellow classmates, especially after admitting knowledge, does not constitute 'doing the right thing' over here.

Thomas Eshuis wrote:

crank wrote:Maybe I'm missing something, but how is it that more than one person is involved? Person X hides books, even if others express approval in some way, they are not 'involved' to any real extent.

The person who returned the books said someone else gave them to him, which means at least two people are involved.
Add to that the fact that people around surely noticed this happening, they're complicit in not telling me who did it when I asked them to tell me, nor where the books were hidden when I demanded they be returned to their owner.

crank wrote: I think you need to find out what it's like generally for the kids there. How common is bullying, how brutal can it get? Hiding someone's books is rather tame.

Not if it's part of a larger set of 'pranks' and other forms of bullying.
And not when the person who owns the books gets visibly upset and the teacher asks you to return the books.

crank wrote: If bullying is a problem there, it won't stop without a concerted effort by the whole school.

That's why I want to talk their form tutor.

"someone handed them to him" doesn't make sense, maybe I'm missing something, weren't you observing the retrieval? If he's saying someone handed them to him and he went and hid them, that is a lie, and still means he did it. I think demanding students to rat out another one, especially in front of everyone, is not at all a good thing to do, it surely isn't realistic. You're authority, students who would rat out another will never be decent skeptics, such behavior should not be encouraged. This wouldn't apply for something truly serious, most bullying hopefully doesn't go anywhere near far enough. Do you really want a bunch of busybody students looking for their classmates to defy the rules so they can run and tell? That's a poisonous atmosphere.

If it's part of a larger pattern, that's what I meant about finding out about bullying in general at the school. You need to know the victim too, some people get visibly upset over trifles, Kids need room to be kids, don't even think about going down the road of 'zero tolerance', we're seeing how horrible the results can be with such attitudes.

however, honesty should be recognised...to me, his 'punishment', whatever that may be, should be less significant than that received by the others...not sure i agree with the 'buck stops here' approach to that one person but then it may be different in secondaries...

Thomas Eshuis wrote:

Strontium Dog wrote:

Thomas Eshuis wrote:If you read carefully, I asked the student who else was involved and he would not say.
I said, that, until he does tell who else was involved, he's the only one I know who was and therefore the only one who'd be punished.

Punishing someone for doing the right thing?

I don't know in what weird kind of education system you grew up, but covering up for bad behaviour of fellow classmates, especially after admitting knowledge, does not constitute 'doing the right thing' over here.

Perhaps it escaped your notice that the ENTIRE CLASS is covering up for bad behaviour?

So why single out for punishment the only person who did the right thing by returning the stolen items?

It is also unreasonable of you to expect the pupil who returned the items to rat out his classmates. You might as well get your branding iron out and sear the word GRASS into his forehead.

A correct course of action would be to punish the classmembers who didn't return the books, ie all of them except this one.

UncertainSloth wrote:however, honesty should be recognised...to me, his 'punishment', whatever that may be, should be less significant than that received by the others...not sure i agree with the 'buck stops here' approach to that one person but then it may be different in secondaries...

Nah. By leaning on the kid who did the bullying, it fractures the group of bullies. Plays them against each other. Make them realize that game doesn't play here.

I've been thinking about this for a while this morning. I'm imagining all sort of bleats for due process, blah, blah. A public school is not a place that is required to practice democracy. There is no "right" to remain within that public school, or to graduate from it. Ejection from a class which is required to graduate will have a serious consequence, as it should.

No way I would suffer a bully to remain in my classroom and pick on another kid while hiding behind anonymity. These punk-ass kids need to learn how that works.

They are bullying that other kid because they can get away with it. There is no consequence. Changing that is trivial.

Sendraks wrote:

Strontium Dog wrote:It is also unreasonable of you to expect the pupil who returned the items to rat out his classmates. You might as well get your branding iron out and sear the word GRASS into his forehead.

Thank you British education circa 1980s for your input.

I'm afraid I don't know what "grass" is in Dutch.

Also, 1990s. Not that things are any different now.

laklak wrote:6 of the best, that will sort them.

This is the correct solution.

Ironclad wrote:

Thomas Eshuis wrote:

The_Metatron wrote:

Thomas Eshuis wrote:

I probably wouldn't go that far. But, I would relieve them of some of their leisure time.

I don't get what laklak means to say?
6 of the best what?

6 lashes of the belt (across the arse)

Not belt. Cane. Preferably the type used in Singapore and Malaysia prisons. The ultra-thick rattan types that actually breaks skin and renders the recipient unable to sit on the his/her* ass for months, and requires a doctor to check on the recipient and verify that the recipient can survive the next stroke.

*In reality, this sort of caning is almost never practiced on females, but I think women should have equal rights.

crank wrote:

Thomas Eshuis wrote:

crank wrote:Maybe I'm missing something, but how is it that more than one person is involved? Person X hides books, even if others express approval in some way, they are not 'involved' to any real extent.

The person who returned the books said someone else gave them to him, which means at least two people are involved.
Add to that the fact that people around surely noticed this happening, they're complicit in not telling me who did it when I asked them to tell me, nor where the books were hidden when I demanded they be returned to their owner.

crank wrote: I think you need to find out what it's like generally for the kids there. How common is bullying, how brutal can it get? Hiding someone's books is rather tame.

Not if it's part of a larger set of 'pranks' and other forms of bullying.
And not when the person who owns the books gets visibly upset and the teacher asks you to return the books.

crank wrote: If bullying is a problem there, it won't stop without a concerted effort by the whole school.

That's why I want to talk their form tutor.

"someone handed them to him" doesn't make sense, maybe I'm missing something, weren't you observing the retrieval? If he's saying someone handed them to him and he went and hid them, that is a lie, and still means he did it.

He meant that he did not take the books from the victims bag.
Someone else gave them to him and he apparently hid them.

crank wrote: I think demanding students to rat out another one, especially in front of everyone, is not at all a good thing to do, it surely isn't realistic.

This behaviour is completely unacceptable, covering up for your fellow classmates only makes it worse.
I'm perfectly aware that most students won't fess up. But the reality of the situation remains that the only person I know is involved at this time, is the student who retrieved the books.
So unless he tells who else is involved or someone else confesses, he's the only one who will receive the consequences.

crank wrote: You're authority, students who would rat out another will never be decent skeptics, such behavior should not be encouraged.

This a non-sequitur.
The asinine notion of not being a grasser is ludicrous in the extreme.
I'll use the same example I used with the student: if someone hands you stolen goods, you'll also take the full punishment if you don't tell who stole them in the first place.

crank wrote: This wouldn't apply for something truly serious, most bullying hopefully doesn't go anywhere near far enough.

I think you seriously underestimate:
A. How quickly bullying can get out of hand.
and
B. How damaging bullying can be, psychologically, especially for teenagers.
Things that might seem harmless or lame to you are not to teenagers, especially when they can be part of a larger collection of systematic bullying.

crank wrote: Do you really want a bunch of busybody students looking for their classmates to defy the rules so they can run and tell? That's a poisonous atmosphere.

No, I want people who, in a group, bully someone to fess up who else is involved, especially when they've just admitted other people 'made them do it'.

crank wrote:If it's part of a larger pattern, that's what I meant about finding out about bullying in general at the school. You need to know the victim too, some people get visibly upset over trifles, Kids need room to be kids, don't even think about going down the road of 'zero tolerance', we're seeing how horrible the results can be with such attitudes.

And we've also seen how horrible the results can be with a 'bullying is part of being kids' mentality.

Strontium Dog wrote:

Sendraks wrote:

Strontium Dog wrote:It is also unreasonable of you to expect the pupil who returned the items to rat out his classmates. You might as well get your branding iron out and sear the word GRASS into his forehead.

Thank you British education circa 1980s for your input.

I'm afraid I don't know what "grass" is in Dutch.

I know what it means and it's asinine notion.

Strontium Dog wrote:Also, 1990s. Not that things are any different now.

Correct it was horseshit then as it is horseshit now.

Strontium Dog wrote:

Thomas Eshuis wrote:

Strontium Dog wrote:

Thomas Eshuis wrote:If you read carefully, I asked the student who else was involved and he would not say.
I said, that, until he does tell who else was involved, he's the only one I know who was and therefore the only one who'd be punished.

Punishing someone for doing the right thing?

I don't know in what weird kind of education system you grew up, but covering up for bad behaviour of fellow classmates, especially after admitting knowledge, does not constitute 'doing the right thing' over here.

Perhaps it escaped your notice that the ENTIRE CLASS is covering up for bad behaviour?

I'll kindly ask you once to not derail this thread with your insipid trolling.

Strontium Dog wrote:So why single out for punishment the only person who did the right thing by returning the stolen items?

Because I'm not singling him out, he's singled himself out, by admitting he hid the books, ie was involved and added to that not admitting who else was involved.

Strontium Dog wrote:
It is also unreasonable of you to expect the pupil who returned the items to rat out his classmates. You might as well get your branding iron out and sear the word GRASS into his forehead.

It's got fuck all to do with what can be expected from children. They still need to learn how to behave.
It's also not a reasonable expectations to expect pupils to never misbehave, doesn't mean they don't get corrected and/or punished for it.

Strontium Dog wrote:
A correct course of action would be to punish the classmembers who didn't return the books, ie all of them except this one.

Horseshit.

Agi Hammerthief wrote:If most of the class are into it, I doubt there is much you can do.

Thats unclear at the moment.
It seems more than one person is involved, both in the incident and the general bullying. But whether its most people in the class is not clear.

Put your foot down hard and be aware that it might continnue after a brief pause.

Dont worry I wont tolerate such behaviour in the slightest.

Thomas Eshuis wrote:

Strontium Dog wrote:
A correct course of action would be to punish the classmembers who didn't return the books, ie all of them except this one.

Horseshit.

Yeah, because youths can be kinda stupid and those who might actually not have noticed who took the books are prone to blame the victim "for getting then into detention" and then all of the class are up against him.

This and people who were completely oblivious are innocent anyway.

Strontium Dog wrote:

Thomas Eshuis wrote:

Strontium Dog wrote:

Thomas Eshuis wrote:If you read carefully, I asked the student who else was involved and he would not say.
I said, that, until he does tell who else was involved, he's the only one I know who was and therefore the only one who'd be punished.

Punishing someone for doing the right thing?

I don't know in what weird kind of education system you grew up, but covering up for bad behaviour of fellow classmates, especially after admitting knowledge, does not constitute 'doing the right thing' over here.

Perhaps it escaped your notice that the ENTIRE CLASS is covering up for bad behaviour?

So why single out for punishment the only person who did the right thing by returning the stolen items?

It is also unreasonable of you to expect the pupil who returned the items to rat out his classmates. You might as well get your branding iron out and sear the word GRASS into his forehead.

A correct course of action would be to punish the classmembers who didn't return the books, ie all of them except this one.

Shut the fuck up, you moron.

quas wrote:

laklak wrote:6 of the best, that will sort them.

This is the correct solution.

Ironclad wrote:

Thomas Eshuis wrote:

The_Metatron wrote:
I probably wouldn't go that far. But, I would relieve them of some of their leisure time.

I don't get what laklak means to say?
6 of the best what?

6 lashes of the belt (across the arse)

Not belt. Cane. Preferably the type used in Singapore and Malaysia prisons. The ultra-thick rattan types that actually breaks skin and renders the recipient unable to sit on the his/her* ass for months, and requires a doctor to check on the recipient and verify that the recipient can survive the next stroke.

*In reality, this sort of caning is almost never practiced on females, but I think women should have equal rights.

Wow, OK. That's special.