Just had an incident of bullying

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Re: Just had an incident of bullying

#41  Postby Fallible » Nov 25, 2015 10:53 am

:tehe:
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If I hear that fucking phrase again, this baby's gonna blow
Into a million itsy bitsy tiny pieces, don't you know,
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Re: Just had an incident of bullying

#42  Postby Weaver » Nov 25, 2015 11:34 am

It always stuns me that there are people here who support bullying behaviors, and support a return to the tacit approval of bullying by authority figures, despite the number of kids who have killed themselves or others after being bullied.
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Re: Just had an incident of bullying

#43  Postby Doubtdispelled » Nov 25, 2015 11:37 am

Agi Hammerthief wrote:some kids are bullying magnets.


Yes, there are some unfortunates who, for various reasons, are more likely to be the targets of bullies, and when I worked in school I also came across a version of a 'bully magnet' who seemed to be the architect of several incidents due to his habit of creating the very scenarios which would lead the other kids into having a go at him. Rather than avoiding a group he had a history with, he seemed to be deliberately putting himself in their way, and then he would scream blue murder if anything happened. I remember one incident when a few boys began stone throwing, joking around with their mates (not that stone throwing was in any way approved of, mind!) and instead of absenting himself he would hang around the area where this was taking place.

I couldn't understand his behaviour, so after yet another hoo-ha I spoke to his head of year, who explained the concept of 'provocative victim' to me, and it all became much clearer.

Provocative victims represent a small group of children who often behave in ways that arouse negative responses from those around them, such as anger, irritation, and exasperation. They possess a cluster of characteristics that are likely to disrupt a classroom and lead to social rejection by peers, including irritability, restlessness, off-task behavior, and hostility. Although they are a distinct subgroup, provocative victims often display characteristics of other groups of children as well — including pure bullies (i.e., they have elevated levels of dominant, aggressive, and antisocial behavior and low levels of tolerance for frustration) and passive victims (i.e., they are socially anxious, feel disliked by others, and have low self-esteem).

http://community.ksde.org/Default.aspx?tabid=3913


He definitely worked at making himself appear to be as different from his peers as possible, and to be quite honest, I found working with him very challenging. He was not open to being helped, or to listen to any advice, and blamed everyone else for everything. Then I met his father, and all became even clearer still. Poor boy.
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Re: Just had an incident of bullying

#44  Postby crank » Nov 25, 2015 3:17 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
crank wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
crank wrote:Maybe I'm missing something, but how is it that more than one person is involved? Person X hides books, even if others express approval in some way, they are not 'involved' to any real extent.

The person who returned the books said someone else gave them to him, which means at least two people are involved.
Add to that the fact that people around surely noticed this happening, they're complicit in not telling me who did it when I asked them to tell me, nor where the books were hidden when I demanded they be returned to their owner.

crank wrote: I think you need to find out what it's like generally for the kids there. How common is bullying, how brutal can it get? Hiding someone's books is rather tame.

Not if it's part of a larger set of 'pranks' and other forms of bullying.
And not when the person who owns the books gets visibly upset and the teacher asks you to return the books.

crank wrote: If bullying is a problem there, it won't stop without a concerted effort by the whole school.

That's why I want to talk their form tutor.

"someone handed them to him" doesn't make sense, maybe I'm missing something, weren't you observing the retrieval? If he's saying someone handed them to him and he went and hid them, that is a lie, and still means he did it.

He meant that he did not take the books from the victims bag.
Someone else gave them to him and he apparently hid them.

crank wrote: I think demanding students to rat out another one, especially in front of everyone, is not at all a good thing to do, it surely isn't realistic.

This behaviour is completely unacceptable, covering up for your fellow classmates only makes it worse.
I'm perfectly aware that most students won't fess up. But the reality of the situation remains that the only person I know is involved at this time, is the student who retrieved the books.
So unless he tells who else is involved or someone else confesses, he's the only one who will receive the consequences.

crank wrote: You're authority, students who would rat out another will never be decent skeptics, such behavior should not be encouraged.

This a non-sequitur.
The asinine notion of not being a grasser is ludicrous in the extreme.
I'll use the same example I used with the student: if someone hands you stolen goods, you'll also take the full punishment if you don't tell who stole them in the first place.


crank wrote: This wouldn't apply for something truly serious, most bullying hopefully doesn't go anywhere near far enough.

I think you seriously underestimate:
A. How quickly bullying can get out of hand.
and
B. How damaging bullying can be, psychologically, especially for teenagers.
Things that might seem harmless or lame to you are not to teenagers, especially when they can be part of a larger collection of systematic bullying.

crank wrote: Do you really want a bunch of busybody students looking for their classmates to defy the rules so they can run and tell? That's a poisonous atmosphere.

No, I want people who, in a group, bully someone to fess up who else is involved, especially when they've just admitted other people 'made them do it'.

crank wrote:If it's part of a larger pattern, that's what I meant about finding out about bullying in general at the school. You need to know the victim too, some people get visibly upset over trifles, Kids need room to be kids, don't even think about going down the road of 'zero tolerance', we're seeing how horrible the results can be with such attitudes.

And we've also seen how horrible the results can be with a 'bullying is part of being kids' mentality.

You've not only misconstrued much of what I said, you changed the facts. It's a quite different situation if the guy who returned the books said someone 'made' him do it, that wasn't in your first version in the OP. You have said absolutely nothing to give anyone to think that this wasn't an isolated event. I made it clear if it was a pattern, that would be different, and more serious. I'm sorry you don't understand how a kid sees you as authority, and if he shows real deference to that, he won't make a good skeptic, but it's crystal clear to me. Saying a group bullied this kid, again, not in evidence. You really must not remember what it's like being a kid, ratting out someone just isn't going to happen, not unless you got a class full of busybody weasels. Expecting it is not a sign of being a good teacher, it's a sign of a teacher with zero understanding of her students.

I don't claim to know what's going on, not enough info. It could be an isolated incidence, a harmless prank, hiding someones books is not serious, friends routinely do much worse shit to their buddies. The 'victim's' clear distress could easily be a gross over-reaction, you don't know, at least you haven't given us a reason to think you do. What is the relationship between the 'victim' and the perps? They could be good friends for all we know. A far better response by you would have been to tell the class no one is leaving until the books are returned, and if it happens again, serious consequences would follow. Your scenario spinning with insufficient evidence did no one any good, leaving you to possibly making it out to be far more serious than it was. I bet you haven't even tried perusing the kids social media have you? You don't have a clue what's going on, don't make it into WWIII, figure out what's happening without making the 'perp' into a terrorist, and try real hard to remember what it's like being a kid in school.
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Re: Just had an incident of bullying

#45  Postby Darwinsbulldog » Nov 25, 2015 3:29 pm

Weaver wrote:It always stuns me that there are people here who support bullying behaviors, and support a return to the tacit approval of bullying by authority figures, despite the number of kids who have killed themselves or others after being bullied.


No biggie. If they are dead they will go to heaven and Jesus will make it ALL better. The meak will inherit the earth. Spare the rod and spoil the child. Might is right, Onward Xian soldiers. :dopey:
Meh. I gave up being human a long time ago. I am a puppy now. :grin:
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Re: Just had an incident of bullying

#46  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Nov 25, 2015 3:34 pm

crank wrote:
You've not only misconstrued much of what I said, you changed the facts.

What's the point in quoting my entire response if you're not going to address what I said?
And, no I did not change the facts in the slightest, you have to read the OP carefully/thoroughly.


crank wrote: It's a quite different situation if the guy who returned the books said someone 'made' him do it, that wasn't in your first version in the OP.

False:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:

So finally, with one minute left, one student retrieved the books from the cupboard and handed them back.
When I asked them why he would do such a thing, he said that someone had handed them to him. When I asked who, he said he would not tell.
Therefore I told him that, until he does tell, everything would be his responsibility and that I would contact his tutor/counsellor (not sure what the correct word is in English, the teacher who manages your affairs during the year).



crank wrote:
You have said absolutely nothing to give anyone to think that this wasn't an isolated event.

Where did I say it was or wasn't?
All I've said is that the victim gave me the impression it wasn't, because he said things like 'they' are always out to 'get him'.


crank wrote:
I made it clear if it was a pattern, that would be different, and more serious.

And I made it clear that your personal impression that hiding your books is a lame thing to do, is a fallacious appeal to personal incredulity.

crank wrote: I'm sorry you don't understand how a kid sees you as authority, and if he shows real deference to that, he won't make a good skeptic, but it's crystal clear to me.

This is nothing but an elaborate appeal to common sense fallacy.
If you can't demonstrate how it makes him not a good sceptic, you're just asserting it.
There's a difference between not betraying a friend, who's being wrongfully persecuted and covering for people who did something you know is wrong.

crank wrote:
Saying a group bullied this kid, again, not in evidence.

Hence you won't find me asserting this is the case with this incidence.
Do try to address what I actually post and not straw-men.

crank wrote: You really must not remember what it's like being a kid,

I advise you not to make stuff up about your interlocutors, not only is it dishonest it hinders rational discussion.

crank wrote: ratting out someone just isn't going to happen, not unless you got a class full of busybody weasels.
Expecting it is not a sign of being a good teacher, it's a sign of a teacher with zero understanding of her students.

Your choice of words is quite telling. This has nothing to with grassing or weasels.
This has to do with unacceptable behaviour and teaching children not do this.
And again, I suggest you stuff your blind assertions about my understanding where the sun doesn't shine.

crank wrote:
I don't claim to know what's going on, not enough info..

And somehow that's not prevented you from making blind assertions about teaching capacities, knowledge of my pupils and other things.

crank wrote:
It could be an isolated incidence, a harmless prank, hiding someones books is not serious, friends routinely do much worse shit to their buddies. The 'victim's' clear distress could easily be a gross over-reaction, you don't know, at least you haven't given us a reason to think you do.

Equally I have no reason to assume it is an overreaction and the first priority is to ensure no-one feels unsafe in my class.


crank wrote: What is the relationship between the 'victim' and the perps? They could be good friends for all we know. A far better response by you would have been to tell the class no one is leaving until the books are returned, and if it happens again, serious consequences would follow..

You've just demonstrated again you haven't read my OP thoroughly, or my subsequent post as I've made it clear that's exactly what I did.

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Since no-one wanted to fess up, I told the entire class that I would not tolerate this kind of behaviour and that if the books were not returned before the end of class, the entire class would get detention.

I had to threaten detention as it was the middle of the day and the kids had different classes to get to.

Thomas Eshuis wrote: Your scenario spinning with insufficient evidence did no one any good, leaving you to possibly making it out to be far more serious than it was.

I have to ask which thread you have been reading because this does not at all reflect what I've been posting here.

Thomas Eshuis wrote: I bet you haven't even tried perusing the kids social media have you? You don't have a clue what's going on, don't make it into WWIII, figure out what's happening without making the 'perp' into a terrorist, and try real hard to remember what it's like being a kid in school.

Nope, you clearly haven't read my posts in this thread. :picard:
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Just had an incident of bullying

#47  Postby laklak » Nov 25, 2015 3:39 pm

I learned a lot about bullying back in the day. Yeah, they're going to blame the victim. The kid who turned in the books will likely get the shit kicked out of him after school. You might be able to stop the bullying in your classroom, Thomas, but you can't stop it outside the schoolyard. From my rather extensive experience as a punching bag THAT is where the truly nasty shit happens. All the counselors in the world and all the detention periods available won't stop it, the only solution is violence, and it is unfortunately up to the victim to initiate it. Bullies are bullies are bullies and they only understand one thing.
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Re: Just had an incident of bullying

#48  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Nov 25, 2015 3:43 pm

laklak wrote:I learned a lot about bullying back in the day. Yeah, they're going to blame the victim. The kid who turned in the books will likely get the shit kicked out of him after school.

Don't think so, he's one of the most outspoken, confident kids in the class, he doesn't let anyone get to him, not teachers nor fellow students.

laklak wrote:You might be able to stop the bullying in your classroom, Thomas, but you can't stop it outside the schoolyard.

Rest assured I have no illusion about that.

laklak wrote: From my rather extensive experience as a punching bag THAT is where the truly nasty shit happens. All the counselors in the world and all the detention periods available won't stop it, the only solution is violence, and it is unfortunately up to the victim to initiate it. Bullies are bullies are bullies and they only understand one thing.

Never the less, I won't have it happen in my class.
Last edited by Thomas Eshuis on Nov 25, 2015 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Just had an incident of bullying

#49  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Nov 25, 2015 3:45 pm

Update:
The year tutor is having talks with the victim and the guy who returned the books.
I will get a report when he's done.
At the very least the victim has assured the tutor that he isn't bullied systematically, so that's some good news.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Just had an incident of bullying

#50  Postby Doubtdispelled » Nov 25, 2015 3:52 pm

laklak wrote:I learned a lot about bullying back in the day. Yeah, they're going to blame the victim. The kid who turned in the books will likely get the shit kicked out of him after school. You might be able to stop the bullying in your classroom, Thomas, but you can't stop it outside the schoolyard. From my rather extensive experience as a punching bag THAT is where the truly nasty shit happens. All the counselors in the world and all the detention periods available won't stop it, the only solution is violence, and it is unfortunately up to the victim to initiate it. Bullies are bullies are bullies and they only understand one thing.

I disagree that violence is the only solution. Although.... it is one. :shifty: When my daughter was quite small a lad tormented her in the local playground. Speaking to his parents made no difference so I told her she would have to kick him up the bum. She did, and he stopped.

Then when a former junior school friend of my middle son was for some reason bent on making his life a misery just after they moved up to secondary, and a lot of that was on the bus, the school didn't seem to be able to do anything about it so I wrote a long letter to his mother telling her all the things he was doing. The bullying stopped immediately. Not that I think his mother would have been violent to him, god-fearing woman that she is, but I imagine the atmosphere in their home after receipt of the letter was less than pleasant.
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Re: Just had an incident of bullying

#51  Postby Strontium Dog » Nov 25, 2015 5:04 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:I'll kindly ask you once to not derail this thread with your insipid trolling.


What trolling? What derail? You asked for advice, and I gave it. If you just wanted people to blow smoke up your arse, that's too bad.

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Strontium Dog wrote:So why single out for punishment the only person who did the right thing by returning the stolen items?


Because I'm not singling him out, he's singled himself out, by admitting he hid the books, ie was involved and added to that not admitting who else was involved.


The whole class is involved. They were all there, all saw what happened, all saw who hid the books, all did nothing, except the one pupil who returned the books.

Punishing the only one of them who co-operated is a sure fire way of ensuring nobody bothers to do the right thing next time. Well done you. Give yourself a pat on the back.
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Re: Just had an incident of bullying

#52  Postby Strontium Dog » Nov 25, 2015 5:06 pm

Darwinsbulldog wrote:
Strontium Dog wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Strontium Dog wrote:

Punishing someone for doing the right thing? :roll:


I don't know in what weird kind of education system you grew up, but covering up for bad behaviour of fellow classmates, especially after admitting knowledge, does not constitute 'doing the right thing' over here.


Perhaps it escaped your notice that the ENTIRE CLASS is covering up for bad behaviour?

So why single out for punishment the only person who did the right thing by returning the stolen items?

It is also unreasonable of you to expect the pupil who returned the items to rat out his classmates. You might as well get your branding iron out and sear the word GRASS into his forehead.

A correct course of action would be to punish the classmembers who didn't return the books, ie all of them except this one.


Shut the fuck up, you moron.


Disgraceful and disgusting. I hope they throw the book at you.
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Re: Just had an incident of bullying

#53  Postby crank » Nov 25, 2015 5:09 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
crank wrote:
You've not only misconstrued much of what I said, you changed the facts.

What's the point in quoting my entire response if you're not going to address what I said?
And, no I did not change the facts in the slightest, you have to read the OP carefully/thoroughly.


crank wrote: It's a quite different situation if the guy who returned the books said someone 'made' him do it, that wasn't in your first version in the OP.

False:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:

So finally, with one minute left, one student retrieved the books from the cupboard and handed them back.
When I asked them why he would do such a thing, he said that someone had handed them to him. When I asked who, he said he would not tell.
Therefore I told him that, until he does tell, everything would be his responsibility and that I would contact his tutor/counsellor (not sure what the correct word is in English, the teacher who manages your affairs during the year).

I think I know how to read, please point to where it's said someone made him do it?

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
crank wrote:
You have said absolutely nothing to give anyone to think that this wasn't an isolated event.

Where did I say it was or wasn't?
All I've said is that the victim gave me the impression it wasn't, because he said things like 'they' are always out to 'get him'.

You're right, I forgot that.
This goes with the 'made' thing. It makes no sense to me as you reported it, if he actually said 'made' then I would agree, there was probably something more serious going on, like maybe there is one or a small group of bullies going after much of the class. But, having just now gone back through all of your posts, he assures the counselor that it isn't systematic. Now I'm beginning to think it really is.

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
crank wrote:
I made it clear if it was a pattern, that would be different, and more serious.

And I made it clear that your personal impression that hiding your books is a lame thing to do, is a fallacious appeal to personal incredulity.

No, that's not even what I said, I said it wasn't serious, which, by itself, it isn't.

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
crank wrote: I'm sorry you don't understand how a kid sees you as authority, and if he shows real deference to that, he won't make a good skeptic, but it's crystal clear to me.

This is nothing but an elaborate appeal to common sense fallacy.
If you can't demonstrate how it makes him not a good sceptic, you're just asserting it.
There's a difference between not betraying a friend, who's being wrongfully persecuted and covering for people who did something you know is wrong.

Good skeptics don't view authority something deserving respect simply due to their being authority, this goes beyond 'authority' as in scholarly authority. I thought that should be obvious. Not ratting another student out is normal behavior, it's not the same as covering for someone, it's not ratting them out. It's not all that subtle a distinction.

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
crank wrote:
Saying a group bullied this kid, again, not in evidence.

Hence you won't find me asserting this is the case with this incidence.
Do try to address what I actually post and not straw-men.

Your words sounded like you had just about assumed it, your scenario spinning left little to no room for it being a harmless prank.

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
crank wrote: You really must not remember what it's like being a kid,

I advise you not to make stuff up about your interlocutors, not only is it dishonest it hinders rational discussion.

What? I asserted an opinion, based on the observation that you expect kids to rat out another student in open class, I've made nothing up.

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
crank wrote: ratting out someone just isn't going to happen, not unless you got a class full of busybody weasels.
Expecting it is not a sign of being a good teacher, it's a sign of a teacher with zero understanding of her students.

Your choice of words is quite telling. This has nothing to with grassing or weasels.
This has to do with unacceptable behaviour and teaching children not do this.
And again, I suggest you stuff your blind assertions about my understanding where the sun doesn't shine.

No, you're just wrong, you are expecting behavior from kids that aren't the way kids behave. They don't give a shit what you expect of them here, they're going to view anyone ratting another student out as a weasel, a rat, whatever, and it;s likely to go very hard on them afterwards. If you don't see that, you're not being a good teacher, you're demanding behavior that isn't in the students' best interest.

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
crank wrote:
I don't claim to know what's going on, not enough info..

And somehow that's not prevented you from making blind assertions about teaching capacities, knowledge of my pupils and other things.

crank wrote:
It could be an isolated incidence, a harmless prank, hiding someones books is not serious, friends routinely do much worse shit to their buddies. The 'victim's' clear distress could easily be a gross over-reaction, you don't know, at least you haven't given us a reason to think you do.

Equally I have no reason to assume it is an overreaction and the first priority is to ensure no-one feels unsafe in my class.


crank wrote: What is the relationship between the 'victim' and the perps? They could be good friends for all we know. A far better response by you would have been to tell the class no one is leaving until the books are returned, and if it happens again, serious consequences would follow..

You've just demonstrated again you haven't read my OP thoroughly, or my subsequent post as I've made it clear that's exactly what I did.

No, it isn't, you also demanded ratting out another student. You're getting loose with the details, keep misconstruing what I said. I've tried to caveat everything considering how little data was released.

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Since no-one wanted to fess up, I told the entire class that I would not tolerate this kind of behaviour and that if the books were not returned before the end of class, the entire class would get detention.

I had to threaten detention as it was the middle of the day and the kids had different classes to get to.

Thomas Eshuis wrote: Your scenario spinning with insufficient evidence did no one any good, leaving you to possibly making it out to be far more serious than it was.

I have to ask which thread you have been reading because this does not at all reflect what I've been posting here.

My remarks stand, you're not being honest with yourself if you don't think you've left virtually no room for the harmless prank case.

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote: I bet you haven't even tried perusing the kids social media have you? You don't have a clue what's going on, don't make it into WWIII, figure out what's happening without making the 'perp' into a terrorist, and try real hard to remember what it's like being a kid in school.

Nope, you clearly haven't read my posts in this thread. :picard:


You can facepalm all you want, it's a non sequitur, I have read all of your posts now and there's no reason to change anything I've said. Have you checked out the social media of kids in the school? that would be really helpful if you suspected there to be a pattern of bullying. By continuing to insist that students should rat out other students, especially in class, you clearly forgot, don't understand, what it's like to be a teenager in school. If the kid was telling the truth, that he's not being systematically bullied, then this was highly likely a harmless prank. Maybe I'm biased, in the US, there are usually much much worse shit to get upset about in schools, maybe the schools where you are do so well that something this minor is worthy of so serious a reaction.
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Re: Just had an incident of bullying

#54  Postby Strontium Dog » Nov 25, 2015 5:16 pm

crank wrote:No, you're just wrong, you are expecting behavior from kids that aren't the way kids behave. They don't give a shit what you expect of them here, they're going to view anyone ratting another student out as a weasel, a rat, whatever, and it;s likely to go very hard on them afterwards. If you don't see that, you're not being a good teacher, you're demanding behavior that isn't in the students' best interest.


Given a choice between grassing up their classmates and taking the detention, a student in their best interests is going to take the detention. It's not worth being labelled as a grass for the rest of your school life, and I speak from experience.

This whole thread actually makes me wonder whether the OP actually attended school himself.
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Re: Just had an incident of bullying

#55  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Nov 25, 2015 5:16 pm

Strontium Dog wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:I'll kindly ask you once to not derail this thread with your insipid trolling.


What trolling? What derail? You asked for advice, and I gave it. If you just wanted people to blow smoke up your arse, that's too bad.

The part where you ask if I wasn't aware that no-one wanted to admit who had hidden the books, when I made it perfectly clear in the OP that that was the case, among other things like your support for bully anonymity and covering up for bullies.
And just now your peurile remarks about blowing smoke which I have not suggested in any way.

Strontium Dog wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Strontium Dog wrote:So why single out for punishment the only person who did the right thing by returning the stolen items?


Because I'm not singling him out, he's singled himself out, by admitting he hid the books, ie was involved and added to that not admitting who else was involved.


The whole class is involved.

Since you weren't there, nor have I expressed anything of the sort in any of my points, this nothing but a blind assertion.

Strontium Dog wrote: They were all there, all saw what happened, all saw who hid the books, all did nothing, except the one pupil who returned the books.

Just to be clear, you are claiming to have some form of clairvoyance that has granted you this knowledge?

Strontium Dog wrote:Punishing the only one of them who co-operated is a sure fire way of ensuring nobody bothers to do the right thing next time. Well done you. Give yourself a pat on the back.

Except, anyone who'd actually bothered to read what I posted, he did not co-operate. I immediately demanded the books be returned and he didn't until I had threatened with detention and at the final minute of the lesson.
And your continued inflammatory remarks can be stuffed right were you got them from SD. I've not interest in your disingenuous posts.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Just had an incident of bullying

#56  Postby Strontium Dog » Nov 25, 2015 5:23 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:if I wasn't aware that no-one wanted to admit who had hidden the books, when I made it perfectly clear in the OP that that was the case, among other things like your support for bully anonymity and covering up for bullies.
And just now your peurile remarks about blowing smoke which I have not suggested in any way.


Support for bully anonymity? You haven't even got any evidence that there is bullying going on. And in no way have any of my responses been trolling or derailments.

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Strontium Dog wrote:The whole class is involved.

Since you weren't there, nor have I expressed anything of the sort in any of my points, this nothing but a blind assertion.


Well thank goodness you've made none of those here...

Except that, as I used to attend school, I know how they work. If someone's books are being hidden, this is a class endeavour. Most if not all of them knew exactly what was going on. Maybe two or three were actively involved, but everyone else was fully aware, of that you can be sure. Certainly, whenever anything like this happened in my school, everyone knew what was going on.

Thomas Eshuis wrote:Just to be clear, you are claiming to have some form of clairvoyance that has granted you this knowledge?


It's called experience. These things do not happen in a vacuum.
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Re: Just had an incident of bullying

#57  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Nov 25, 2015 5:59 pm

crank wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
crank wrote:
You've not only misconstrued much of what I said, you changed the facts.

What's the point in quoting my entire response if you're not going to address what I said?
And, no I did not change the facts in the slightest, you have to read the OP carefully/thoroughly.


crank wrote: It's a quite different situation if the guy who returned the books said someone 'made' him do it, that wasn't in your first version in the OP.

False:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:

So finally, with one minute left, one student retrieved the books from the cupboard and handed them back.
When I asked them why he would do such a thing, he said that someone had handed them to him. When I asked who, he said he would not tell.
Therefore I told him that, until he does tell, everything would be his responsibility and that I would contact his tutor/counsellor (not sure what the correct word is in English, the teacher who manages your affairs during the year).

I think I know how to read, please point to where it's said someone made him do it?

The point where I asked him why he took the books and hid them and he said that someone gave them to him.

crank wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
crank wrote:
You have said absolutely nothing to give anyone to think that this wasn't an isolated event.

Where did I say it was or wasn't?
All I've said is that the victim gave me the impression it wasn't, because he said things like 'they' are always out to 'get him'.

You're right, I forgot that.
This goes with the 'made' thing. It makes no sense to me as you reported it, if he actually said 'made' then I would agree, there was probably something more serious going on, like maybe there is one or a small group of bullies going after much of the class. But, having just now gone back through all of your posts, he assures the counselor that it isn't systematic. Now I'm beginning to think it really is.

How do you figure?

crank wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
crank wrote:
I made it clear if it was a pattern, that would be different, and more serious.

And I made it clear that your personal impression that hiding your books is a lame thing to do, is a fallacious appeal to personal incredulity.

No, that's not even what I said, I said it wasn't serious, which, by itself, it isn't.

So you blindly assert.
It is serious, it demonstrates disrespect for the victim. Especially when said victim is visibly upset by the entire incident and both he and I are telling them to hand the books back.

crank wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
crank wrote: I'm sorry you don't understand how a kid sees you as authority, and if he shows real deference to that, he won't make a good skeptic, but it's crystal clear to me.

This is nothing but an elaborate appeal to common sense fallacy.
If you can't demonstrate how it makes him not a good sceptic, you're just asserting it.
There's a difference between not betraying a friend, who's being wrongfully persecuted and covering for people who did something you know is wrong.

Good skeptics don't view authority something deserving respect simply due to their being authority, this goes beyond 'authority' as in scholarly authority.

Except that this not at all a case of sceptically not accepting my authority. They have no business taking other people's stuff, regardless of my authority and any respect thereof.

crank wrote: I thought that should be obvious. Not ratting another student out is normal behavior,

Again, it's completely irrelevant whether it's normal or expected behaviour.
Students need to learn how to behave, not just in the classroom, but as a member of society.
I can't expect that pupils never play with their phone in class, doesn't mean I won't address it and confiscate the phone if happens.
It's 'normal' behaviour for pupils to talk to each other during class, even during oral instruction by the teacher.
Doesn't change that it's unacceptable behaviour that needs to be corrected.
Just like it's not acceptable behaviour to take and hide other people's stuff, refuse to return and covering up for people who bully.
And again, if this student doesn't 'rat out' his fellow perps, he's the only one who I know is involved and the only one who will face the consequences.

crank wrote: it's not the same as covering for someone, it's not ratting them out. It's not all that subtle a distinction.

A crucial and ludicrous distinction. It might be expected behaviour among their peers, that doesn't mean it's acceptable. Nor will it help them when they'll be the only facing the consequences because they don't want to 'rat out' the others.


crank wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
crank wrote:
Saying a group bullied this kid, again, not in evidence.

Hence you won't find me asserting this is the case with this incidence.
Do try to address what I actually post and not straw-men.

Your words sounded like you had just about assumed it, your scenario spinning left little to no room for it being a harmless prank.

That's still a complete misrepresentation of my posts in this thread.
All I've said is that I wanted to be sure whether that scenario is happening or not.
Hence why I suggest to the year tutor to have a conversation about it with the student.

crank wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
crank wrote: You really must not remember what it's like being a kid,

I advise you not to make stuff up about your interlocutors, not only is it dishonest it hinders rational discussion.

What? I asserted an opinion, based on the observation that you expect kids to rat out another student in open class, I've made nothing up.

Yes, you have, as I've made it repeatedly clear that I do not expect them to rat each other out.
I said that they should say who was involved, not that they would/that I expected they would.

crank wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
crank wrote: ratting out someone just isn't going to happen, not unless you got a class full of busybody weasels.
Expecting it is not a sign of being a good teacher, it's a sign of a teacher with zero understanding of her students.

Your choice of words is quite telling. This has nothing to with grassing or weasels.
This has to do with unacceptable behaviour and teaching children not do this.
And again, I suggest you stuff your blind assertions about my understanding where the sun doesn't shine.

No, you're just wrong,

Counterfactual blind assertion based on repeated failure to address what I've actually posted.

crank wrote: you are expecting behavior from kids that aren't the way kids behave.

Still complete fiction, no matter how many times you blindly repeat it.


crank wrote:They don't give a shit what you expect of them here, they're going to view anyone ratting another student out as a weasel, a rat, whatever, and it;s likely to go very hard on them afterwards. If you don't see that, you're not being a good teacher, you're demanding behavior that isn't in the students' best interest.

Again, not what I posted at all.

crank wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
crank wrote:
I don't claim to know what's going on, not enough info..

And somehow that's not prevented you from making blind assertions about teaching capacities, knowledge of my pupils and other things.

crank wrote:
It could be an isolated incidence, a harmless prank, hiding someones books is not serious, friends routinely do much worse shit to their buddies. The 'victim's' clear distress could easily be a gross over-reaction, you don't know, at least you haven't given us a reason to think you do.

Equally I have no reason to assume it is an overreaction and the first priority is to ensure no-one feels unsafe in my class.


crank wrote: What is the relationship between the 'victim' and the perps? They could be good friends for all we know. A far better response by you would have been to tell the class no one is leaving until the books are returned, and if it happens again, serious consequences would follow..

You've just demonstrated again you haven't read my OP thoroughly, or my subsequent post as I've made it clear that's exactly what I did.

No, it isn't, you also demanded ratting out another student.

Yes I did. I did not expect him to, I told him that's what he should do, if he wanted to avoid being the only one facing the consequences.
I left the choice with him.
Whether I should expect it or not is immaterial, it's what he should do.
Again, whether I can expect students to play with their phone, or talk during instruction time is completely irrelevant to the fact that they should not do either and they have to be taught not do so.

crank wrote: You're getting loose with the details,

I've done no such thing. You are the one who has failed to read what I actually posted and/or misrepresented it.

crank wrote:keep misconstruing what I said.

That's really the pot calling the kettle black.

crank wrote: I've tried to caveat everything considering how little data was released.

And I've tried to explain why some of your responses were not corresponding with what I actually posted and others were flawed.

crank wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Since no-one wanted to fess up, I told the entire class that I would not tolerate this kind of behaviour and that if the books were not returned before the end of class, the entire class would get detention.

I had to threaten detention as it was the middle of the day and the kids had different classes to get to.

crank wrote: Your scenario spinning with insufficient evidence did no one any good, leaving you to possibly making it out to be far more serious than it was.

I have to ask which thread you have been reading because this does not at all reflect what I've been posting here.

My remarks stand, you're not being honest with yourself if you don't think you've left virtually no room for the harmless prank case.

Blindly repeating the same baseless assertion won't magically make it true.
You have not demonstrated how I've done this.
I've repeatedly made it clear that I wanted to make sure whether it was an isolated incident or not and that if the culprits had bothered to observe the victim they'd quickly noticed that their 'prank' was anything but harmless.

crank wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
crank wrote:I bet you haven't even tried perusing the kids social media have you? You don't have a clue what's going on, don't make it into WWIII, figure out what's happening without making the 'perp' into a terrorist, and try real hard to remember what it's like being a kid in school.

Nope, you clearly haven't read my posts in this thread. :picard:


You can facepalm all you want, it's a non sequitur,

It's not, it's an expression of exasperation at your continued failure to address what I actually posted.

crank wrote:I have read all of your posts now and there's no reason to change anything I've said.

No reasons, other than presenting evidence for your assertions, addressing my corrections of your misrepresentations.
But if you don't care about that, that's fine, but then I'm done engaging on this thread with you.

crank wrote:Have you checked out the social media of kids in the school?

I've left it in the hands of their year tutor, which you'd know if you'd read the thread. He's going to talk with the people involved and based on the result, we're going to see if we need to investigate further or take other steps.

crank wrote: that would be really helpful if you suspected there to be a pattern of bullying.

This question has already been resolved.

crank wrote: By continuing to insist that students should rat out other students, especially in class, you clearly forgot, don't understand, what it's like to be a teenager in school.

Once again making shit up that I haven't expressed.
I told the student to tell me who else was involved, at no point did I demand he do so in class.
I said that until he told me one way or the other, he'd be the only we knew was involved and therefore the only one who would face the consequences.
And for the final time, I don't expect him to do anything.
I've made it clear what he should do. What's the right the behaviour.
Covering up for people who've broken the rules is not helpful for either the student or the victim and won't be good behaviour in society either.
If they graduate and some friend gives them stolen goods, not telling their friend was involved won't help them one bit and will only result in them getting punished in their friends stead.

crank wrote: If the kid was telling the truth, that he's not being systematically bullied, then this was highly likely a harmless prank.

A complete non-sequitur based on a false dichotomy.
It might not be systematic bullying, it still made the victim visibly upset, as I made clear in the OP. So even if it was intended as a prank, it was anything but harmless. More-over taken other students stuff is simply unacceptable behaviour, both because it might affect the pupil and it tends to disrupt the class/lesson.

crank wrote:
Maybe I'm biased, in the US, there are usually much much worse shit to get upset about in schools, maybe the schools where you are do so well that something this minor is worthy of so serious a reaction.

This is a fallacy of relative privation.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Just had an incident of bullying

#58  Postby jaydot » Nov 25, 2015 7:11 pm

one student got the books from the cupboard and handed them over. you then insisted he grass up his mates. not a good move. could you not have said "thank you" and asked the class to cease and desist being childish? you have now escalated this matter to harrass a possibly innocent party and embarrass further the aggrieved student.
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Re: Just had an incident of bullying

#59  Postby The_Metatron » Nov 25, 2015 9:42 pm

No way that kid who took the books to hide them was innocent. He was an accomplice.

Now, he's an accomplice who has to decide if the punishment is worth more than his loyalty to the rest of the bully gang. He has to decide if being the scapegoat is worth it.
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Re: Just had an incident of bullying

#60  Postby Strontium Dog » Nov 25, 2015 10:24 pm

jaydot wrote:one student got the books from the cupboard and handed them over. you then insisted he grass up his mates. not a good move. could you not have said "thank you" and asked the class to cease and desist being childish? you have now escalated this matter to harrass a possibly innocent party and embarrass further the aggrieved student.


A good move would be to leave the room for 2 minutes with the student who had his books taken and say that when you come back into the room, if the books have not been returned, the entire class is getting detention. This puts pressure on the main culprits then, they won't want to be responsible for getting the entire class a detention, and will make them think twice about repeating such a stunt.
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