Kids that don't listen

How to discipline them?

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Re: Kids that don't listen

#101  Postby jamest » Jan 03, 2014 1:33 am

Onyx8 wrote:I don't know, I see some equivocation or perhaps just ambiguity between 'punishment' and 'discipline' there.

When my son acts up I send him to his room for a while. Is that punishment or discipline?

There's nothing wrong with that, but Agrippina couldn't agree with it. According to her, you should only tell a child what they've done right! So, how would kids learn that they've done something wrong if we can only use positive affirmation?
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Re: Kids that don't listen

#102  Postby Matthew Shute » Jan 03, 2014 1:39 am

jamest wrote:This is another issue that's difficult to discuss in today's PC climate. Unless you're one of those flower-power lovey-dovey treat-your-kids-like-royals parents


But, if your philosophy is correct, "we" are all God - God is all there is. It only makes sense to treat every expression of "our" divine existence as such. It makes no sense for God to punish itself.
:angel:

which itself might have negative developmental connotations


Human development is an illusion (there are no humans). God is mature, developed.
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Re: Kids that don't listen

#103  Postby jamest » Jan 03, 2014 1:49 am

Matthew Shute wrote:
jamest wrote:This is another issue that's difficult to discuss in today's PC climate. Unless you're one of those flower-power lovey-dovey treat-your-kids-like-royals parents


But, if your philosophy is correct, "we" are all God - God is all there is. It only makes sense to treat every expression of "our" divine existence as such. It makes no sense for God to punish itself.
:angel:

Don't be daft. No expression of my philosophy precludes 'the observer' from thinking and behaving like a brat. Nobody wants to talk about my philosophy here, but you yourself know of the limitations I place upon said observer.

which itself might have negative developmental connotations


Human development is an illusion (there are no humans). God is mature, developed.
:levi:

I can't tell if you're just having a laugh; but if you're not then you're a long-way away from understanding my perspective. Conscious development (of beliefs/thoughts/emotions) is a reality. The only thing I say is an illusion, is the thought that 'I' am human. But let's not go there, here. Most of the people frequenting this thread abhor philosophy.
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Re: Kids that don't listen

#104  Postby Matthew Shute » Jan 03, 2014 2:09 am

I can't tell if you're just having a laugh;


There are one or two clues that would suggest so! On the other hand... no, no, I'll go into building up your incomplete understanding of the implications of your own philosophy another time...
:lol: :hugs:
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Re: Kids that don't listen

#105  Postby jamest » Jan 03, 2014 2:15 am

Matthew Shute wrote:
I can't tell if you're just having a laugh;


There are one or two clues that would suggest so! On the other hand... no, no, I'll go into building up your incomplete understanding of the implications of your own philosophy another time...
:lol: :hugs:

There are none. There is only the fabrication of straw structures grounded upon an incomplete understanding of my philosophy. :tongue:
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Re: Kids that don't listen

#106  Postby Mick » Jan 03, 2014 5:01 am

Onyx8 wrote:I don't know, I see some equivocation or perhaps just ambiguity between 'punishment' and 'discipline' there.

When my son acts up I send him to his room for a while. Is that punishment or discipline?


It is both.

In the behaviourist sense, it is punishment, presumably. Yet, if his room is a play pen, then perhaps not. I recommend the corner. Here the kid has to stare into a corner and say nothing. No one speaks to him; no one listens to him. He is able to calm down; he is able to think about what he's done; he has no stimulation, and so it sucks.

When he comes out, he explains to you why you put him in there and how he can change his behavior for the better.
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Re: Kids that don't listen

#107  Postby Agrippina » Jan 03, 2014 5:23 am

Mick wrote:
The_Metatron wrote:...says someone who has shown himself to be expert on abusing words.


Even if that were true, what would that have to do with the present point? This poster is broadening the conception of violence to fit her own needs.


Talking about me are you?
If you are going to use some sort of physical restraint against a child, it is violence, no matter what you are doing. You should never touch a child without his/her permission. Yes, not even to hug the child, unless you have asked.
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Re: Kids that don't listen

#108  Postby Agrippina » Jan 03, 2014 5:32 am

Mick wrote:
Matthew Shute wrote:
Mick wrote:It is violence even though there is no verbal abuse, no yelling, no physical touch, no threat of bodily harm or physical pain, or anything of that sort? That's just humpty-dumptyism. You're abusing words.


What does this "snapping them back into reality" and "breaking them" involve, then, Mick? Can you give a specific example?
:ask:
Let's see who is abusing words here.


Yes, sure.

I once had a single mom ask me for help with a 9 year old boy. The boy wouldn't listen to her pleas for him to stop whatever behavior. Redirection was not working either. She said she tried everything. I told her that he next time he keeps it up, calmly tell him that if he chooses to behave in this manner and not some other manner (insert desired behavior sort), then she will take him to his room and he will watch her collect every toy he had and remove it from his grasp. She was then instructed to keep those toys for at least three days. Each day he was "good", he'd get a portion of his toys back. If he was "good" for 3 days, he'd earn them all back. If "bad" for one, he'd have to start all over again.

Upon telling him this, the boy tested her, likely believing her to be weak and insincere. She did as I asked-his room was bare. She told me he looked flabbergasted. He blew his lid a bit. That was just him trying to regain control. She responded that if he did not choose to calm down in whatever time limit (likely 5 mins or so), then she would remove TV privileges and start to give him chores to do.

He later calmed. He took her seriously and was apologetic. They debriefed the incident. She reaffirmed her place and his. They expressed love. They talked about his behavioral expectations and how he can earn his stuff back. 9 days later, he earned them all back and she tells me that he has been far better now.

If kids erect thrones, you need to tear them down. Otherwise they are in charge, not you. This "breaking" is the breaking of their thrones. It is the correction of their bloated sense of entitlement, authority or whatever else they have learned. It does not come down easy, most of the time.


Oh FFS Mick. What sort of parent allows it to get to this point? By the time a child is nine years old there should already be a measure of respect, on both parts. What the hell was she doing for the nine years while he was learning to control her?

Was she waiting for him to become a teenager on drugs before she was going to establish some control?

You get the lines drawn from the day you bring the infant home. On the first day you establish a routine and you set boundaries. The problem is that parents arrive home thinking they're dealing with the person described in beautifully decorated baby books, and websites. They don't expect to deal with an infant that cries all day and all night, so they just leave it to cry, or pick it up every single time it cries. Take a look inside a hospital children's ward, or the nursery in a maternity department. The babies do not cry all the time. If the baby is warm, fed, dry, and comfortable and cries non-stop, get help from a medical professional.

Once you've established the feeding, bathing, changing, playing routine, from then on, it's easy to maintain the routine. If you don't start establishing routines, and boundaries from the beginning, the problem is not the child. You don't wait nine bloody years for a problem to get out of control before you try to fix it. :roll:
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Re: Kids that don't listen

#109  Postby Agrippina » Jan 03, 2014 5:35 am

Mick wrote:If you're overly sensitive, sure.

Parents these days need to quit treating kids like delicate flowers. Think of parenthood as being political, because that is one dimension of it. It's basically like Game of Thrones. ;)


They are fucking delicate flowers. You have the chance to make someone into a person who will respect him/herself, and who will be respected by everyone he meets in turn.

When you treat the child like some political pawn, or someone to be controlled, you are not treating him/her like a person, but like a possession. Is marriage "political" as well? Is your wife a possession as well? :roll: :roll:
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Re: Kids that don't listen

#110  Postby Mick » Jan 03, 2014 5:48 am

Agrippina wrote:
Mick wrote:
Matthew Shute wrote:
Mick wrote:It is violence even though there is no verbal abuse, no yelling, no physical touch, no threat of bodily harm or physical pain, or anything of that sort? That's just humpty-dumptyism. You're abusing words.


What does this "snapping them back into reality" and "breaking them" involve, then, Mick? Can you give a specific example?
:ask:
Let's see who is abusing words here.


Yes, sure.

I once had a single mom ask me for help with a 9 year old boy. The boy wouldn't listen to her pleas for him to stop whatever behavior. Redirection was not working either. She said she tried everything. I told her that he next time he keeps it up, calmly tell him that if he chooses to behave in this manner and not some other manner (insert desired behavior sort), then she will take him to his room and he will watch her collect every toy he had and remove it from his grasp. She was then instructed to keep those toys for at least three days. Each day he was "good", he'd get a portion of his toys back. If he was "good" for 3 days, he'd earn them all back. If "bad" for one, he'd have to start all over again.

Upon telling him this, the boy tested her, likely believing her to be weak and insincere. She did as I asked-his room was bare. She told me he looked flabbergasted. He blew his lid a bit. That was just him trying to regain control. She responded that if he did not choose to calm down in whatever time limit (likely 5 mins or so), then she would remove TV privileges and start to give him chores to do.

He later calmed. He took her seriously and was apologetic. They debriefed the incident. She reaffirmed her place and his. They expressed love. They talked about his behavioral expectations and how he can earn his stuff back. 9 days later, he earned them all back and she tells me that he has been far better now.

If kids erect thrones, you need to tear them down. Otherwise they are in charge, not you. This "breaking" is the breaking of their thrones. It is the correction of their bloated sense of entitlement, authority or whatever else they have learned. It does not come down easy, most of the time.


Oh FFS Mick. What sort of parent allows it to get to this point? By the time a child is nine years old there should already be a measure of respect, on both parts. What the hell was she doing for the nine years while he was learning to control her?

Was she waiting for him to become a teenager on drugs before she was going to establish some control?

You get the lines drawn from the day you bring the infant home. On the first day you establish a routine and you set boundaries. The problem is that parents arrive home thinking they're dealing with the person described in beautifully decorated baby books, and websites. They don't expect to deal with an infant that cries all day and all night, so they just leave it to cry, or pick it up every single time it cries. Take a look inside a hospital children's ward, or the nursery in a maternity department. The babies do not cry all the time. If the baby is warm, fed, dry, and comfortable and cries non-stop, get help from a medical professional.

Once you've established the feeding, bathing, changing, playing routine, from then on, it's easy to maintain the routine. If you don't start establishing routines, and boundaries from the beginning, the problem is not the child. You don't wait nine bloody years for a problem to get out of control before you try to fix it. :roll:


I work with what they give me. I don't question much about how they raised the boy in the beginning. That said, she's a single mom of 4, and she works full-time. Her life is a struggle. Your eye roll won't help.
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Re: Kids that don't listen

#111  Postby Mick » Jan 03, 2014 5:50 am

Agrippina wrote:
Mick wrote:If you're overly sensitive, sure.

Parents these days need to quit treating kids like delicate flowers. Think of parenthood as being political, because that is one dimension of it. It's basically like Game of Thrones. ;)


They are fucking delicate flowers. You have the chance to make someone into a person who will respect him/herself, and who will be respected by everyone he meets in turn.

When you treat the child like some political pawn, or someone to be controlled, you are not treating him/her like a person, but like a possession. Is marriage "political" as well? Is your wife a possession as well? :roll: :roll:


Is this real life? Seriously. Can someone tell me?
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Re: Kids that don't listen

#112  Postby Agrippina » Jan 03, 2014 6:04 am

jamest wrote:This is another issue that's difficult to discuss in today's PC climate. Unless you're one of those flower-power lovey-dovey treat-your-kids-like-royals parents (which itself might have negative developmental connotations), you're likely these days to be made-out to be a thug.

Who is saying that you need to do this. This is not what I'm saying. Stop putting fucking words in my mouth.

If you bully your children, you are a thug.

But I don't think that this is a realistic expectation, particularly when it's often in a kid's nature to be selfish, lazy, manipulative, aggressive, brattish, etc..

A child's nature to be " selfish, lazy, manipulative, aggressive, brattish, etc.." is learnt from it's parents, children learn how to behave by watching how their parents behave. They are not born with original sin. I'm not saying that they are a tabula rasa, there are some innate genetic character traits but mostly you make your child into what you want him/her to be.

Unfortunately I no longer have access to academic papers online, and most of my books are not up to date on the latest, objective research on feral children, and twin studies. The information is out there if people are interested enough to look for what academia has to say about it.

Here's a link to a list of items to read on nature/nurture.

These are not easy things to deal with, at all, especially on a repetitive basis. I'm not advocating that kids should get a good beating once a day, but some of the nonsense I'm reading in this thread astounds me. There are certain times when discipline [of sorts] is absolutely necessary, and anyone who has had kids must surely know this.


It shouldn't get to this if the groundwork has been laid in early childhood. If you establish boundaries from the beginning, behave as if you are the parent, and not the child's best friend waiting to give him/her every little thing the little heart desires just for the sake of peace.

I'm not suggesting that they be treated like "flower-power lovey-dovey treat-your-kids-like-royals," I repeat, I am not saying this.
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Re: Kids that don't listen

#113  Postby Agrippina » Jan 03, 2014 6:10 am

Mick wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
Mick wrote:
Matthew Shute wrote:

What does this "snapping them back into reality" and "breaking them" involve, then, Mick? Can you give a specific example?
:ask:
Let's see who is abusing words here.


Yes, sure.

I once had a single mom ask me for help with a 9 year old boy. The boy wouldn't listen to her pleas for him to stop whatever behavior. Redirection was not working either. She said she tried everything. I told her that he next time he keeps it up, calmly tell him that if he chooses to behave in this manner and not some other manner (insert desired behavior sort), then she will take him to his room and he will watch her collect every toy he had and remove it from his grasp. She was then instructed to keep those toys for at least three days. Each day he was "good", he'd get a portion of his toys back. If he was "good" for 3 days, he'd earn them all back. If "bad" for one, he'd have to start all over again.

Upon telling him this, the boy tested her, likely believing her to be weak and insincere. She did as I asked-his room was bare. She told me he looked flabbergasted. He blew his lid a bit. That was just him trying to regain control. She responded that if he did not choose to calm down in whatever time limit (likely 5 mins or so), then she would remove TV privileges and start to give him chores to do.

He later calmed. He took her seriously and was apologetic. They debriefed the incident. She reaffirmed her place and his. They expressed love. They talked about his behavioral expectations and how he can earn his stuff back. 9 days later, he earned them all back and she tells me that he has been far better now.

If kids erect thrones, you need to tear them down. Otherwise they are in charge, not you. This "breaking" is the breaking of their thrones. It is the correction of their bloated sense of entitlement, authority or whatever else they have learned. It does not come down easy, most of the time.


Oh FFS Mick. What sort of parent allows it to get to this point? By the time a child is nine years old there should already be a measure of respect, on both parts. What the hell was she doing for the nine years while he was learning to control her?

Was she waiting for him to become a teenager on drugs before she was going to establish some control?

You get the lines drawn from the day you bring the infant home. On the first day you establish a routine and you set boundaries. The problem is that parents arrive home thinking they're dealing with the person described in beautifully decorated baby books, and websites. They don't expect to deal with an infant that cries all day and all night, so they just leave it to cry, or pick it up every single time it cries. Take a look inside a hospital children's ward, or the nursery in a maternity department. The babies do not cry all the time. If the baby is warm, fed, dry, and comfortable and cries non-stop, get help from a medical professional.

Once you've established the feeding, bathing, changing, playing routine, from then on, it's easy to maintain the routine. If you don't start establishing routines, and boundaries from the beginning, the problem is not the child. You don't wait nine bloody years for a problem to get out of control before you try to fix it. :roll:


I work with what they give me. I don't question much about how they raised the boy in the beginning. That said, she's a single mom of 4, and she works full-time. Her life is a struggle. Your eye roll won't help.


So what, so was I, and I was battling with my own autism spectrum disorder, and that of one of my children. Big deal.
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Re: Kids that don't listen

#114  Postby Agrippina » Jan 03, 2014 6:11 am

jamest wrote:
Onyx8 wrote:What nonsense are you reading in this thread?

Stuff like this:
Agrippina wrote:
Good grief! I wouldn't even try to break a horse. Children should never be punished unless they do something criminal and with the knowledge that what they are doing is a crime. Otherwise, train them with positive reinforcement. :nono:


:roll:
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Re: Kids that don't listen

#115  Postby Agrippina » Jan 03, 2014 6:12 am

Onyx8 wrote:I don't know, I see some equivocation or perhaps just ambiguity between 'punishment' and 'discipline' there.

When my son acts up I send him to his room for a while. Is that punishment or discipline?


It depends, if all the fun stuff is in his room, then you're rewarding him. :grin:
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Re: Kids that don't listen

#116  Postby Agrippina » Jan 03, 2014 6:24 am

jamest wrote:
Onyx8 wrote:I don't know, I see some equivocation or perhaps just ambiguity between 'punishment' and 'discipline' there.

When my son acts up I send him to his room for a while. Is that punishment or discipline?

There's nothing wrong with that, but Agrippina couldn't agree with it. According to her, you should only tell a child what they've done right! So, how would kids learn that they've done something wrong if we can only use positive affirmation?


Here's an example. A kid is helping you with the dishes. She/he drops a plate on the floor and it breaks. What do you do?

1)Do you yell at the kid for being clumsy, and not watching what they're doing?
2)Do you roll your eyes and tell the kid that you've told them and told them and told them that they should dry dishes over the draining board, and lecture on and on?
3)Or do you tell the kid that accidents happen, and that you're sure they didn't intend to drop the plate, then hand them a brush and pan to sweep the bits up and throw them away, and make them clean up the mess.
4)Or do you use a dishwasher and never expect the kids to help around the house.
5)Or do you not have food prepared by you, and no housework done by you or the children, and leave everything to your mother who does the parenting, or the nanny.

In 1) you're being a bully, and hurting the child. In 2) You're being a pain in the ass and your kid will avoid helping with the dishes because if they blah blah blah.(Authoritarian parenting) In 3) You're being a responsible parent, teaching the child to clean up a mess they've made and establishing that you understand that they will make mistakes, because they're only human, but that you will be there to help them clean up when they mess up.(Authoritative parenting) In 4) you're being irresponsible and treating the kid like it's a delicate little flower who never needs to learn how to live in the real world where people wash dishes, and in future when the child has responsibilities, it will find easy ways out of the responsibilities. (Permissive parenting). 5) you're being uninvolved, and leaving your kids to their own devices (uninvolved parenting).

Even if you do use a dishwasher most of the time, you should make kids wash dishes or help with other chores, just so that they learn how to be responsible.

http://blog.lib.umn.edu/meyer769/myblog/2011/11/the-four-types-of-parenting-styles.html
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Re: Kids that don't listen

#117  Postby Agrippina » Jan 03, 2014 6:27 am

Mick wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
Mick wrote:If you're overly sensitive, sure.

Parents these days need to quit treating kids like delicate flowers. Think of parenthood as being political, because that is one dimension of it. It's basically like Game of Thrones. ;)


They are fucking delicate flowers. You have the chance to make someone into a person who will respect him/herself, and who will be respected by everyone he meets in turn.

When you treat the child like some political pawn, or someone to be controlled, you are not treating him/her like a person, but like a possession. Is marriage "political" as well? Is your wife a possession as well? :roll: :roll:


Is this real life? Seriously. Can someone tell me?


Well, answer my question. Do you treat your wife the same way you treat your children?
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Re: Kids that don't listen

#118  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » Jan 03, 2014 8:08 am

I don't consider myself remotely namby pamby with children. Children are people. I hold them responsible for their actions. When they make a mess, I expect them to clean it up. I am stern. There are consequences to failing to clean up one's messes. I am consistent. I'm also kind and fair.

I see absolutely no reason why using fear and pain is superior to what I do.
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Re: Kids that don't listen

#119  Postby Stagman » Jan 03, 2014 8:52 am

This was getting somewhere until a geezer came in and started a war of words.

I'll give the kids a notification by Moderator.... :)
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Re: Kids that don't listen

#120  Postby Evolving » Jan 03, 2014 11:45 am

Another thing that occurs to me is not to try to do everything at once. Choose one particular behaviour that you want to change: having them stay seated at the table until everyone has finished their meal, for instance (no idea whether this is relevant to your circumstances: it's just an example). Explain that they will get a specific reward for doing that, provided they don't have to be told more than - say - twice: so if they start getting down before they are supposed to, warn them once and remind them of the reward; the second time give them a sterner warning; and the third time let them know they have forfeited the reward on this occasion. With the next meal, they start with a clean sheet. And if they have earned a reward by staying seated throughout a meal, then give them the promised reward, even if they have misbehaved in other ways.

After a week or so, move on to the next piece of behaviour: coming to the table when called, for instance. To get the reward, they have to come to the table when called and also stay seated: in other words, the behaviours are cumulative. (But they can start dropping off the list once you get to about three behaviours and the earlier ones are hopefully cemented by this time.)

Good for you for wanting to help your girlfriend. It is so much easier when you don't have to do everything yourself.
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