Kids that don't listen

How to discipline them?

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Re: Kids that don't listen

#121  Postby jamest » Jan 03, 2014 11:49 am

Agrippina wrote:
jamest wrote:
Onyx8 wrote:I don't know, I see some equivocation or perhaps just ambiguity between 'punishment' and 'discipline' there.

When my son acts up I send him to his room for a while. Is that punishment or discipline?

There's nothing wrong with that, but Agrippina couldn't agree with it. According to her, you should only tell a child what they've done right! So, how would kids learn that they've done something wrong if we can only use positive affirmation?


Here's an example. A kid is helping you with the dishes…

It's not a very-good example, because no reasonable person would categorise dropping a plate whilst trying to be helpful, as 'naughty'. As you say in 3): "accidents happen". A better example would have been if you'd entered a room and saw your kids throwing plates at each other. :grin:

Kid's can be very naughty from a very-early age, and the policy of sitting them on your knee from this age and being positively reasonable with them is unrealistic for a few reasons:

a) Very-young kids only understand a few simple words, words which have direct external references you can point at (like cat, tree, mummy, daddy, plate, etc.). Their limited vocabulary prohibits the effort of sitting them on your knee and trying to be reasonable with them on the issue of ethics. In any case, they have a very-limited attention span, practically non-existent in many cases. So from the onset, your methodology seems doomed.

b) Young kids are very selfish and demanding - emotionally immature - by nature. Learning to be empathetic and sharing is not something which is going to happen overnight, after having a 'positive' discussion with them. It's something which happens slowly [in most cases] via interaction with one's peers.

c) It's impossible to highlight bad behaviour without being negative about it. Positive affirmation only works for good behaviour.
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Re: Kids that don't listen

#122  Postby Scarlett » Jan 03, 2014 12:07 pm

I think there's a balance to be found, if the only communication they get is negative when they're playing up, they'll play up to just get the attention. If most of the communication they get is positive, then negative communication when required isn't going to damage self esteem.

Saying this, one of my pet-hates with child rearing is inappropriate praise, those parents who "well done!" at everything the kid does, it's meaningless and renders the genuinely earned praise as meaningless. This is why I use the term 'positive communication' rather than praise.
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Re: Kids that don't listen

#123  Postby Agrippina » Jan 03, 2014 1:57 pm

Evolving wrote:Another thing that occurs to me is not to try to do everything at once. Choose one particular behaviour that you want to change: having them stay seated at the table until everyone has finished their meal, for instance (no idea whether this is relevant to your circumstances: it's just an example). Explain that they will get a specific reward for doing that, provided they don't have to be told more than - say - twice: so if they start getting down before they are supposed to, warn them once and remind them of the reward; the second time give them a sterner warning; and the third time let them know they have forfeited the reward on this occasion. With the next meal, they start with a clean sheet. And if they have earned a reward by staying seated throughout a meal, then give them the promised reward, even if they have misbehaved in other ways.

After a week or so, move on to the next piece of behaviour: coming to the table when called, for instance. To get the reward, they have to come to the table when called and also stay seated: in other words, the behaviours are cumulative. (But they can start dropping off the list once you get to about three behaviours and the earlier ones are hopefully cemented by this time.)

Good for you for wanting to help your girlfriend. It is so much easier when you don't have to do everything yourself.


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Re: Kids that don't listen

#124  Postby trubble76 » Jan 03, 2014 2:04 pm

I think the simplest solution is to plan ahead. Have one more child than you'd actually like and when your kids start to misbehave, just eat one. I guarantee the survivors will be the most obedient kids in the country.

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Re: Kids that don't listen

#125  Postby Agrippina » Jan 03, 2014 2:08 pm

jamest wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
jamest wrote:
Onyx8 wrote:I don't know, I see some equivocation or perhaps just ambiguity between 'punishment' and 'discipline' there.

When my son acts up I send him to his room for a while. Is that punishment or discipline?

There's nothing wrong with that, but Agrippina couldn't agree with it. According to her, you should only tell a child what they've done right! So, how would kids learn that they've done something wrong if we can only use positive affirmation?


Here's an example. A kid is helping you with the dishes…

It's not a very-good example, because no reasonable person would categorise dropping a plate whilst trying to be helpful, as 'naughty'. As you say in 3): "accidents happen". A better example would have been if you'd entered a room and saw your kids throwing plates at each other. :grin:

You think? I hated helping with the dishes because I am very clumsy. I drop stuff all the time, and all my life people have mocked me, or shouted at me because "you're such a klutz." My mother used to yell and perform when I dropped dishes. Then I learnt how to do them without breaking them and threw the rest of the family out of the kitchen to do the dishes myself, because my obsessive and organised method worked, and still works, better than any other person's ways of higgledy-piggledy dishwashing. :roll:

So yes, it is a valid example. Don't scream at your kids for being clumsy.

Kid's can be very naughty from a very-early age, and the policy of sitting them on your knee from this age and being positively reasonable with them is unrealistic for a few reasons:

a) Very-young kids only understand a few simple words, words which have direct external references you can point at (like cat, tree, mummy, daddy, plate, etc.). Their limited vocabulary prohibits the effort of sitting them on your knee and trying to be reasonable with them on the issue of ethics. In any case, they have a very-limited attention span, practically non-existent in many cases. So from the onset, your methodology seems doomed.

Crap. I've just spent a day with my 3 year old grandson who rolls his eyes when his dad does this. It goes in one ear and out the other. His mum distracts him from whatever he's doing that some people may consider "naughtiness" and he co-operates. If your two-year-old has a limited vocabulary, you're not talking to them enough. They should be learning new words every day.

b) Young kids are very selfish and demanding - emotionally immature - by nature. Learning to be empathetic and sharing is not something which is going to happen overnight, after having a 'positive' discussion with them. It's something which happens slowly [in most cases] via interaction with one's peers.

Nonsense, kids learn about "sharing is caring" from a very young age. Especially if they have siblings. They might act up a little if a sibling seems to be getting more attention than they think is fair but they understand "...is still a baby, he needs me to give him attention, would you like to throw the nappy in the bin for me to help, please?" They can co-operate if you speak to them as if they are people, and not a nuisance.

c) It's impossible to highlight bad behaviour without being negative about it. Positive affirmation only works for good behaviour.

Take for example a glass of juice that's too close to the edge of the table and gets bumped off the table by accident. Do you say "you bumped the glass off the table because you put it too close to the edge," or do you say, "the glass was too close to the edge, so it was likely to be bumped off when you moved your arm," as you react to the glass crashing to the floor? The first is an accusation, it makes the kid feel bad, and he'll then be nervous about having a glass near him on the table. The second is an explanation of why the accident happened, and he's more likely to be careful about putting glasses close to the edge in the future. You can change behaviour without making the kid feel like a criminal.
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Re: Kids that don't listen

#126  Postby Agrippina » Jan 03, 2014 2:09 pm

trubble76 wrote:I think the simplest solution is to plan ahead. Have one more child than you'd actually like and when your kids start to misbehave, just eat one. I guarantee the survivors will be the most obedient kids in the country.

:evilgrin:


Damn! My secret is out. :grin:
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Re: Kids that don't listen

#127  Postby jamest » Jan 03, 2014 2:37 pm

Agrippina wrote:
jamest wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
jamest wrote:
There's nothing wrong with that, but Agrippina couldn't agree with it. According to her, you should only tell a child what they've done right! So, how would kids learn that they've done something wrong if we can only use positive affirmation?


Here's an example. A kid is helping you with the dishes…

It's not a very-good example, because no reasonable person would categorise dropping a plate whilst trying to be helpful, as 'naughty'. As you say in 3): "accidents happen". A better example would have been if you'd entered a room and saw your kids throwing plates at each other. :grin:

You think? I hated helping with the dishes because I am very clumsy. I drop stuff all the time, and all my life people have mocked me, or shouted at me because "you're such a klutz." My mother used to yell and perform when I dropped dishes. Then I learnt how to do them without breaking them and threw the rest of the family out of the kitchen to do the dishes myself, because my obsessive and organised method worked, and still works, better than any other person's ways of higgledy-piggledy dishwashing. :roll:

So yes, it is a valid example. Don't scream at your kids for being clumsy.

Fair enough, but your mum was wrong - being 'clumsy' is not the same as being naughty.

Kid's can be very naughty from a very-early age, and the policy of sitting them on your knee from this age and being positively reasonable with them is unrealistic for a few reasons:

a) Very-young kids only understand a few simple words, words which have direct external references you can point at (like cat, tree, mummy, daddy, plate, etc.). Their limited vocabulary prohibits the effort of sitting them on your knee and trying to be reasonable with them on the issue of ethics. In any case, they have a very-limited attention span, practically non-existent in many cases. So from the onset, your methodology seems doomed.

Crap. I've just spent a day with my 3 year old grandson who rolls his eyes when his dad does this. It goes in one ear and out the other. His mum distracts him from whatever he's doing that some people may consider "naughtiness" and he co-operates. If your two-year-old has a limited vocabulary, you're not talking to them enough. They should be learning new words every day.

Perhaps, to a degree. But to expect all very-young kids to understand the mature voice of reason wrt ethics doesn't sound realistic, in my opinion.

b) Young kids are very selfish and demanding - emotionally immature - by nature. Learning to be empathetic and sharing is not something which is going to happen overnight, after having a 'positive' discussion with them. It's something which happens slowly [in most cases] via interaction with one's peers.

Nonsense, kids learn about "sharing is caring" from a very young age. Especially if they have siblings. They might act up a little if a sibling seems to be getting more attention than they think is fair but they understand "...is still a baby, he needs me to give him attention, would you like to throw the nappy in the bin for me to help, please?" They can co-operate if you speak to them as if they are people, and not a nuisance.

Again, there's a modicum of truth in that, but my experience is that most kids don't properly mature in the selfless sense of the word until late in their development. It's a slow progress. In fact, issues of selfishness are always present in every individual, even as adults. There aren't many saints out there.

c) It's impossible to highlight bad behaviour without being negative about it. Positive affirmation only works for good behaviour.

Take for example a glass of juice that's too close to the edge of the table and gets bumped off the table by accident. Do you say "you bumped the glass off the table because you put it too close to the edge," or do you say, "the glass was too close to the edge, so it was likely to be bumped off when you moved your arm," as you react to the glass crashing to the floor? The first is an accusation, it makes the kid feel bad, and he'll then be nervous about having a glass near him on the table. The second is an explanation of why the accident happened, and he's more likely to be careful about putting glasses close to the edge in the future. You can change behaviour without making the kid feel like a criminal.

I get that, but again I'm struggling to interpret an accident as naughtiness. It's not what I had in mind when I was making the particular comments that I've made.
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Re: Kids that don't listen

#128  Postby Agrippina » Jan 03, 2014 2:56 pm

jamest wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
jamest wrote:
Agrippina wrote:

Here's an example. A kid is helping you with the dishes…

It's not a very-good example, because no reasonable person would categorise dropping a plate whilst trying to be helpful, as 'naughty'. As you say in 3): "accidents happen". A better example would have been if you'd entered a room and saw your kids throwing plates at each other. :grin:

You think? I hated helping with the dishes because I am very clumsy. I drop stuff all the time, and all my life people have mocked me, or shouted at me because "you're such a klutz." My mother used to yell and perform when I dropped dishes. Then I learnt how to do them without breaking them and threw the rest of the family out of the kitchen to do the dishes myself, because my obsessive and organised method worked, and still works, better than any other person's ways of higgledy-piggledy dishwashing. :roll:

So yes, it is a valid example. Don't scream at your kids for being clumsy.

Fair enough, but your mum was wrong - being 'clumsy' is not the same as being naughty.

The whole family thought I did it deliberately to get out of doing stuff. People still tell me "you're clumsy." :roll: So what! I'm also very clever. :grin:

Kid's can be very naughty from a very-early age, and the policy of sitting them on your knee from this age and being positively reasonable with them is unrealistic for a few reasons:

a) Very-young kids only understand a few simple words, words which have direct external references you can point at (like cat, tree, mummy, daddy, plate, etc.). Their limited vocabulary prohibits the effort of sitting them on your knee and trying to be reasonable with them on the issue of ethics. In any case, they have a very-limited attention span, practically non-existent in many cases. So from the onset, your methodology seems doomed.

Crap. I've just spent a day with my 3 year old grandson who rolls his eyes when his dad does this. It goes in one ear and out the other. His mum distracts him from whatever he's doing that some people may consider "naughtiness" and he co-operates. If your two-year-old has a limited vocabulary, you're not talking to them enough. They should be learning new words every day.

Perhaps, to a degree. But to expect all very-young kids to understand the mature voice of reason wrt ethics doesn't sound realistic, in my opinion.

At their age level, kids understand fairness. We under-estimate their innate morality, to a degree, but also we know they have it because we protect them from the ugliness of the real world. We don't show them images of animals being slaughtered, or allow them to see graphic movies involving violence, because we don't want them to become hardened by it. If they didn't have innate morality, they wouldn't be affected by the death of a pet, or feel sympathy when they see us hurt. Again my 2 year old granddaughter. When I stubbed my toe last week, she was extremely upset about it, kept asking if it hurt, showing that she has an inborn empathy. My grandson saw the toe this afternoon, he also asked if it hurt.

b) Young kids are very selfish and demanding - emotionally immature - by nature. Learning to be empathetic and sharing is not something which is going to happen overnight, after having a 'positive' discussion with them. It's something which happens slowly [in most cases] via interaction with one's peers.

Nonsense, kids learn about "sharing is caring" from a very young age. Especially if they have siblings. They might act up a little if a sibling seems to be getting more attention than they think is fair but they understand "...is still a baby, he needs me to give him attention, would you like to throw the nappy in the bin for me to help, please?" They can co-operate if you speak to them as if they are people, and not a nuisance.

Again, there's a modicum of truth in that, but my experience is that most kids don't properly mature in the selfless sense of the word until late in their development. It's a slow progress. In fact, issues of selfishness are always present in every individual, even as adults. There aren't many saints out there.

Just as with adults, children are different. Some are more sympathy, empathetic, kind, thoughtful, honest, moral, than others. Mostly I prefer the company of kids because they usually tell the truth about what they observe in the world. And they don't judge. Somewhere along the line, in the disciplining, they become dishonest and judgemental.

c) It's impossible to highlight bad behaviour without being negative about it. Positive affirmation only works for good behaviour.

Take for example a glass of juice that's too close to the edge of the table and gets bumped off the table by accident. Do you say "you bumped the glass off the table because you put it too close to the edge," or do you say, "the glass was too close to the edge, so it was likely to be bumped off when you moved your arm," as you react to the glass crashing to the floor? The first is an accusation, it makes the kid feel bad, and he'll then be nervous about having a glass near him on the table. The second is an explanation of why the accident happened, and he's more likely to be careful about putting glasses close to the edge in the future. You can change behaviour without making the kid feel like a criminal.

I get that, but again I'm struggling to interpret an accident as naughtiness. It's not what I had in mind when I was making the particular comments that I've made.

Sometimes kids do knock things over deliberately, just to get attention. They're human after all. :thumbup:
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Re: Kids that don't listen

#129  Postby consistency » Jan 16, 2014 1:32 am

Agrippina. :thumbup:

Passive-aggressive parenting is what the title of this thread should be renamed to.
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Re: Kids that don't listen

#130  Postby Agrippina » Jan 16, 2014 5:00 am

consistency wrote:Agrippina. :thumbup:

Passive-aggressive parenting is what the title of this thread should be renamed to.


Why? :dunno:
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Re: Kids that don't listen

#131  Postby ScientificSkeptic » Feb 09, 2014 7:11 am

I was well behaved as a kid and now I make crap money......

They will probably be successful. Just keep telling them how great they are....
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Re: Kids that don't listen

#132  Postby hackenslash » Feb 11, 2014 9:58 am

Mick wrote: bloated ego and delusions of authority.


:think: :lol:
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