Kids that don't listen

How to discipline them?

Discussions for education, teaching & parenting.

Moderators: Blip, The_Metatron

Re: Kids that don't listen

#81  Postby Mick » Jan 02, 2014 4:34 pm

Agrippina wrote:
Mick wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
Mick wrote:

Yes, I was speaking informally. You responded emotionally.

All I mean here is that we need to snap them back into reality. I call this a break because it is seems to always be an emotional event. Behavior will escalate in attempts to regain control, the control he learned that he can have. Frustration builds until their is an outburst; he then gives in and drops his erroneous claim to the throne. Usually the child says he is sorry, hugs the parent, feelings of love are expressed and the event debriefed. Balance is restored.


It's the use of violent words that causes me to think that violence is involved, and especially coming from someone who claims to know child psychology. "Snap them back into reality?" Really? A professional would use a completely difference phrase, certainly not the word "snap." Most bad behaviour in children is not emotional. They become emotional because the caregiver responds emotionally to the behaviour. Sometimes they're not even aware that what they're doing is "bad behaviour" and in some societies, the behaviour might not even be "bad." Consider for instance the insistence (olden days I know) that children stand up when a teacher enters the room. Do they still have to do that? African children would consider that "rude," because the teacher has higher social status than the child, and therefore must stand taller than the child. Punishing an African child for not standing up when an adult enters the room would confuse her, and in she may even become "emotional" when forced to do so.

I don't expect kids to say "sorry" for doing the things that kids do. :roll:



Professionals often speak informally or even somewhat inaccurately to get understanding. It is kind of humorous, I think. That said, the method I proposed resembles a snap, since it is often shocking and swift. The kid is shocked by the consequence and resilience of the parent, someone he previously took as weak and unassuming. It is like watching the kid see a paradigm shift-a mini revolution before your eyes.


That sounds exactly like a "clip on the ear" or a "slap to the back of the head" or a "smack on the backside." Not a method I would use with a child. It's violence, no matter how you try to make it sound cute. :nono:



It is violence even though there is no verbal abuse, no yelling, no physical touch, no threat of bodily harm or physical pain, or anything of that sort? That's just humpty-dumptyism. You're abusing words.
Christ said, "I am the Truth"; he did not say "I am the custom." -- St. Toribio
User avatar
Mick
Banned Troll
 
Posts: 7027

Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Kids that don't listen

#82  Postby The_Metatron » Jan 02, 2014 5:22 pm

...says someone who has shown himself to be expert on abusing words.
I AM Skepdickus!

Check out Hack's blog, too. He writes good.
User avatar
The_Metatron
Moderator
 
Name: Jesse
Posts: 21078
Age: 58
Male

Country: United States
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Kids that don't listen

#83  Postby Matthew Shute » Jan 02, 2014 5:27 pm

Mick wrote:It is violence even though there is no verbal abuse, no yelling, no physical touch, no threat of bodily harm or physical pain, or anything of that sort? That's just humpty-dumptyism. You're abusing words.


What does this "snapping them back into reality" and "breaking them" involve, then, Mick? Can you give a specific example?
:ask:
Let's see who is abusing words here.
Last edited by Matthew Shute on Jan 02, 2014 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Change will preserve us. It is the lifeblood of the Isles. It will move mountains! It will mount movements!" - Sheogorath
User avatar
Matthew Shute
 
Name: Matthew Shute
Posts: 3676
Age: 42

Antarctica (aq)
Print view this post

Re: Kids that don't listen

#84  Postby Evolving » Jan 02, 2014 5:27 pm

The thread is about Stagman's desire to help his girlfriend with her children.

If, having sought advice on the internet, he were to tell me that we should try to "break" my children, I wouldn't want him anywhere near them.

It is, at the very least, a very insensitive expression.
How extremely stupid not to have thought of that - T.H. Huxley
User avatar
Evolving
 
Name: Serafina Pekkala
Posts: 11993
Female

Country: Luxembourg
Luxembourg (lu)
Print view this post

Re: Kids that don't listen

#85  Postby Evolving » Jan 02, 2014 5:31 pm

Everybody here agrees that children need boundaries, but the purpose of those boundaries is guidance, not tyranny. A child wants his/her parents' love and approval; the parents' job is to show the child how to gain the approval, and that the love is already there and not in jeopardy.
How extremely stupid not to have thought of that - T.H. Huxley
User avatar
Evolving
 
Name: Serafina Pekkala
Posts: 11993
Female

Country: Luxembourg
Luxembourg (lu)
Print view this post

Re: Kids that don't listen

#86  Postby Agrippina » Jan 02, 2014 6:51 pm

Exactly. The idea is not to figuratively beat the child into submission by making him/her afraid of punishment, but to give the child a sense of security, and the self-confidence to express him/herself in a way that doesn't interfere with other people's right to express themselves, and to enjoy their lives. You don't get that by making the child afraid of you.
Illegitimi non carborundum
User avatar
Agrippina
 
Posts: 36690
Age: 110
Female

Country: South Africa
South Africa (za)
Print view this post

Re: Kids that don't listen

#87  Postby Ironclad » Jan 02, 2014 8:01 pm

Stagman, have you tried writing them a Mod-note? I find that it works for my children.





:leaving:
For Van Youngman - see you amongst the stardust, old buddy

"If there was no such thing as science, you'd be right " - Sean Lock

"God ....an inventive destroyer" - Broks
User avatar
Ironclad
RS Donator
 
Name: Nudge-Nudge
Posts: 23925
Age: 52
Male

Country: Wink-Wink
Indonesia (id)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Kids that don't listen

#88  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » Jan 02, 2014 8:14 pm

The_Metatron wrote:...says someone who has shown himself to be expert on abusing words.


What a vile thing to say!
what a terrible image
User avatar
Rachel Bronwyn
 
Name: speaking moistly
Posts: 13521
Age: 32
Female

Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Kids that don't listen

#89  Postby campermon » Jan 02, 2014 8:16 pm

Ironclad wrote:Stagman, have you tried writing them a Mod-note? I find that it works for my children.





:leaving:


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

A blue for the boys and a pink for the girls? :ask:


:mrgreen:
Scarlett and Ironclad wrote:Campermon,...a middle aged, middle class, Guardian reading, dad of four, knackered hippy, woolly jumper wearing wino and science teacher.
User avatar
campermon
RS Donator
 
Posts: 17437
Age: 51
Male

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Kids that don't listen

#90  Postby Mick » Jan 02, 2014 8:24 pm

The_Metatron wrote:...says someone who has shown himself to be expert on abusing words.


Even if that were true, what would that have to do with the present point? This poster is broadening the conception of violence to fit her own needs.
Christ said, "I am the Truth"; he did not say "I am the custom." -- St. Toribio
User avatar
Mick
Banned Troll
 
Posts: 7027

Print view this post

Re: Kids that don't listen

#91  Postby Mick » Jan 02, 2014 8:24 pm

Evolving wrote:Everybody here agrees that children need boundaries, but the purpose of those boundaries is guidance, not tyranny. A child wants his/her parents' love and approval; the parents' job is to show the child how to gain the approval, and that the love is already there and not in jeopardy.


Ok, sure.
Christ said, "I am the Truth"; he did not say "I am the custom." -- St. Toribio
User avatar
Mick
Banned Troll
 
Posts: 7027

Print view this post

Re: Kids that don't listen

#92  Postby Mick » Jan 02, 2014 8:44 pm

Matthew Shute wrote:
Mick wrote:It is violence even though there is no verbal abuse, no yelling, no physical touch, no threat of bodily harm or physical pain, or anything of that sort? That's just humpty-dumptyism. You're abusing words.


What does this "snapping them back into reality" and "breaking them" involve, then, Mick? Can you give a specific example?
:ask:
Let's see who is abusing words here.


Yes, sure.

I once had a single mom ask me for help with a 9 year old boy. The boy wouldn't listen to her pleas for him to stop whatever behavior. Redirection was not working either. She said she tried everything. I told her that he next time he keeps it up, calmly tell him that if he chooses to behave in this manner and not some other manner (insert desired behavior sort), then she will take him to his room and he will watch her collect every toy he had and remove it from his grasp. She was then instructed to keep those toys for at least three days. Each day he was "good", he'd get a portion of his toys back. If he was "good" for 3 days, he'd earn them all back. If "bad" for one, he'd have to start all over again.

Upon telling him this, the boy tested her, likely believing her to be weak and insincere. She did as I asked-his room was bare. She told me he looked flabbergasted. He blew his lid a bit. That was just him trying to regain control. She responded that if he did not choose to calm down in whatever time limit (likely 5 mins or so), then she would remove TV privileges and start to give him chores to do.

He later calmed. He took her seriously and was apologetic. They debriefed the incident. She reaffirmed her place and his. They expressed love. They talked about his behavioral expectations and how he can earn his stuff back. 9 days later, he earned them all back and she tells me that he has been far better now.

If kids erect thrones, you need to tear them down. Otherwise they are in charge, not you. This "breaking" is the breaking of their thrones. It is the correction of their bloated sense of entitlement, authority or whatever else they have learned. It does not come down easy, most of the time.
Christ said, "I am the Truth"; he did not say "I am the custom." -- St. Toribio
User avatar
Mick
Banned Troll
 
Posts: 7027

Print view this post

Re: Kids that don't listen

#93  Postby Mick » Jan 02, 2014 8:46 pm

Evolving wrote:The thread is about Stagman's desire to help his girlfriend with her children.

If, having sought advice on the internet, he were to tell me that we should try to "break" my children, I wouldn't want him anywhere near them.

It is, at the very least, a very insensitive expression.


Listen to what I mean by that. Don't get hung up on the word.

What's the Asian saying? Don't concentrate on the finger pointing to the moon, since you'll miss all that heavenly glory (or whatever)
Christ said, "I am the Truth"; he did not say "I am the custom." -- St. Toribio
User avatar
Mick
Banned Troll
 
Posts: 7027

Print view this post

Re: Kids that don't listen

#94  Postby Evolving » Jan 02, 2014 9:19 pm

Mick wrote:
Listen to what I mean by that. Don't get hung up on the word.


This is why I say, at the very least, it's insensitive.

This is me giving you the benefit of the doubt.
How extremely stupid not to have thought of that - T.H. Huxley
User avatar
Evolving
 
Name: Serafina Pekkala
Posts: 11993
Female

Country: Luxembourg
Luxembourg (lu)
Print view this post

Re: Kids that don't listen

#95  Postby Mick » Jan 02, 2014 10:39 pm

If you're overly sensitive, sure.

Parents these days need to quit treating kids like delicate flowers. Think of parenthood as being political, because that is one dimension of it. It's basically like Game of Thrones. ;)
Christ said, "I am the Truth"; he did not say "I am the custom." -- St. Toribio
User avatar
Mick
Banned Troll
 
Posts: 7027

Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Kids that don't listen

#96  Postby jamest » Jan 03, 2014 12:53 am

This is another issue that's difficult to discuss in today's PC climate. Unless you're one of those flower-power lovey-dovey treat-your-kids-like-royals parents (which itself might have negative developmental connotations), you're likely these days to be made-out to be a thug. But I don't think that this is a realistic expectation, particularly when it's often in a kid's nature to be selfish, lazy, manipulative, aggressive, brattish, etc.. These are not easy things to deal with, at all, especially on a repetitive basis. I'm not advocating that kids should get a good beating once a day, but some of the nonsense I'm reading in this thread astounds me. There are certain times when discipline [of sorts] is absolutely necessary, and anyone who has had kids must surely know this.
Il messaggero non e importante.
Ora non e importante.
Il resultato futuro e importante.
Quindi, persisto.
jamest
 
Posts: 18548
Male

Country: England
Jolly Roger (arr)
Print view this post

Re: Kids that don't listen

#97  Postby Onyx8 » Jan 03, 2014 1:08 am

What nonsense are you reading in this thread?
The problem with fantasies is you can't really insist that everyone else believes in yours, the other problem with fantasies is that most believers of fantasies eventually get around to doing exactly that.
User avatar
Onyx8
Moderator
 
Posts: 17520
Age: 64
Male

Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Kids that don't listen

#98  Postby jamest » Jan 03, 2014 1:18 am

Onyx8 wrote:What nonsense are you reading in this thread?

Stuff like this:
Agrippina wrote:
Good grief! I wouldn't even try to break a horse. Children should never be punished unless they do something criminal and with the knowledge that what they are doing is a crime. Otherwise, train them with positive reinforcement. :nono:
Il messaggero non e importante.
Ora non e importante.
Il resultato futuro e importante.
Quindi, persisto.
jamest
 
Posts: 18548
Male

Country: England
Jolly Roger (arr)
Print view this post

Re: Kids that don't listen

#99  Postby Mick » Jan 03, 2014 1:22 am

jamest wrote:
Onyx8 wrote:What nonsense are you reading in this thread?

Stuff like this:
Agrippina wrote:
Good grief! I wouldn't even try to break a horse. Children should never be punished unless they do something criminal and with the knowledge that what they are doing is a crime. Otherwise, train them with positive reinforcement. :nono:



You should read Alfie Kohn. It is nothing short of comical.
Christ said, "I am the Truth"; he did not say "I am the custom." -- St. Toribio
User avatar
Mick
Banned Troll
 
Posts: 7027

Print view this post

Re: Kids that don't listen

#100  Postby Onyx8 » Jan 03, 2014 1:27 am

I don't know, I see some equivocation or perhaps just ambiguity between 'punishment' and 'discipline' there.

When my son acts up I send him to his room for a while. Is that punishment or discipline?
The problem with fantasies is you can't really insist that everyone else believes in yours, the other problem with fantasies is that most believers of fantasies eventually get around to doing exactly that.
User avatar
Onyx8
Moderator
 
Posts: 17520
Age: 64
Male

Canada (ca)
Print view this post

PreviousNext

Return to Parenting & Education

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest