School Isolation as Punishment!

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Re: School Isolation as Punishment!

#41  Postby UncertainSloth » Apr 16, 2019 12:09 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
UncertainSloth wrote:
so you believe it's ok for children to be taken out of school for an extended period of time for what isn't considered an exceptional reason?


Point of clarity: where did I suggest anything of the sort? :think: I said nothing about what I believe, or disbelieve, I merely compared it to isolation.

I first questioned whether suspension and exclusion were still actions a school could take (because I honestly don't know if that's changed while I wasn't looking) and if they are actions a school can take, then I followed through with...

I can't see a distinction betweem a kid that's so irredeemably awful that they need to be isolated in school from other kids and a kid that should just be suspended. If their behavior's not bad enough to warrant suspension, then their behavior's surely not bad enough to warrant isolation?


So why are they being isolated rather than being suspended or expelled? If anything, I was suggesting they are functionally equivalent.


UncertainSloth wrote:professionally, i don't believe they're fined enough, that's why it still happens...with the fine, it's still much cheaper to go in term time...the demands for progress are far too high for extended absence to not have an impact...
that said, personally, i'd extend the exceptional reason definition from its current form but that's a different debate


It is indeed another argument, and it's one where I'd wonder whether the poorest people should even be allowed holidays. But as you say, different debate.


UncertainSloth wrote:all schools should have positive reinforcement within their behaviour policy, that's not something that's disappeared, but sanctions are, unfortunately, very much needed


Ok, so back to suspension and expulsion...


UncertainSloth wrote:the issue with your reference to suspension and exclusion rather than isolation comes to what i mentioned above...those two are far more difficult to achieve than they used to be, especially permanent exclusion...basically, speaking as one who's working within the process at the moment, you have to demonstrate you have exhausted every possible avenue possible to support that's child's exclusion or referral to behavioural unit...this is made even more complex if the child has send
isolation, where it is used, is one of those hoops that has to be jumped through first...

to be clear, i know i'm coming from experience (and only from a uk persepctive) rather than evidence but i'm trying to explain the weaknesses in our system, not defend them and i certainly don't believe it was applied at all correctly in this case as that child's needs should have been catered for within the send policy, not the behavioural...


Then I am not really sure where you're disagreeing with me, to be honest. I can't see a single thing there that contradicts my point.


UncertainSloth wrote:believe me, as fall said above, the standards of behaviour have changed massively in the last 25 years...i hold my own opinions as to why that is...

Image


While I don't dispute this, I have to say that I went to a highschool where a 14 year old kid beat up a teacher right in the front of the class and was actually taken down by other pupils, teens routinely took drugs and alcohol during school hours, knives, shanks and other weapons were routinely discovered, during a full school assembly, a kid called Craig hopped up on the stage behind the Head Teacher, pulled down his trousers and full-mooned the entire school and staff, gave the teachers the bird, then climbed out of a window to avoid the head of P.E. tackling him. :lol: These are just off the top of my head, and I am sure given a while longer I can recall some even more extreme anecdotes.

Even I hit a teacher once, but fair play, he was strangling me at the time! :grin:

We were the school you got sent to when you were expelled from every other school in the area - one kid ended up at our school after putting a fellow 13 year old in a coma for refusing to share his crisps - but in all the time I was there, I only recall a single instance of our school expelling anyone, and I can't even recall what that kid did, but it would have had to have been unbelievably egregious by any standard, past or present.

Not to suggest you're wrong that this kind of behavior is more wide-spread than before, but it has always happened, and it's always been difficult to deal with. That doesn't make isolating children in our care any less of an abject failure, both in systematic terms and morally.


bib 1
apologies if i worded that wrongly - i was referring to where you stated that you found it difficult to process it...perhaps belief is too strong a word

bib 2
i explained that above - the processes are far more complex and lengthy - i know of an ex-pupil of mine that launched a firework at a lunchtime supervisor at his secondary school...he remained there...

bib 3
don't get me started... :lol:

bib 4
i don't think i am, apologies if it comes across that way, just trying to give an up-to-date perspective
i would agree it's always happened, though your school sounds almost like what would be considered a unit these days, but it is recognisable to me that the numbers have grown, added to the inclusion of complex send needs, either in or alongside those students...'

isolation is there to be used as a short term reflective tool...unfortunately, in a lot of cases, it's not...whether that is reflective of the school or the government is key to the discussion, i suppose....
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Re: School Isolation as Punishment!

#42  Postby UncertainSloth » Apr 16, 2019 12:14 pm

Spearthrower wrote:

I sense there is actually a link between these 2 points - again, I am far away and it's hard to get a sense of what's happening on a fine-grain level in the UK, but it seems like schools are being corporatized, and kids being treated like little budding workers. While I'd like to knee-jerk into believing this is all about the Tories, I have to say I imagine a lot of this happened under Nu Labour too. It's no wonder that reports suggest 40% of teachers are expecting to leave the profession in the next 5 years - I know what motivates most teachers (I was one for many years) and I can't imagine many would want to be complicit in this while also being paid shit for the privilege.


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Re: School Isolation as Punishment!

#43  Postby Fallible » Apr 16, 2019 12:15 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
Fallible wrote:I think whether you agree with the fine or not, how things are right now make no sense. The problem isn't a school problem, it's a problem within the tourism industry - that they choose to capitalise on the fact that families are constrained to take holidays during certain weeks of the year. You'd expect nothing less from a money making enterprise. Companies aren't going to respond to complaints about the price hike, so apparently parents decide to go for what they see as the path of least resistance in their quest to save money.


This discussion is moving far away from the topic of the thread, albeit acknowledging that it was me who introduced it as a means of highlighting how I have lost some sense of schooling in the UK. But as we're here now, I will say that I came from a benefits family, and the only time we ever went on holiday was in the off-season. Not off-season for airplane travel as I never flew anywhere until I'd all been and groweded up after I was proparly edukated. I mean off-season for caravan parks on the south coast a hundred miles from home!

If back then my parents had been faced with a fine, we wouldn't have been able to go on holiday at all. I can't see how that's meant to be a superior situation for a child from any perspective, even educationally. My recollection of family holidays is that they were pretty abysmal, all things considered, but they were at least a change of scenery once a year.


It's not a superior situation, in fact I started my post with the statement that it makes no sense. But again, parents not being able to afford holidays in school holiday time is not the fault of schools. Incidentally, not wanting to start a whole Monty Python sketch, but I am one of the kids who never had a holiday at all until I was about 15.


Fallible wrote:A lot argue that a couple of weeks off makes no discernible difference to the progress of their child. I don't think they're considering just how much things have changed since they were at school. Schools are facing unprecedented pressure for children to perform to increasingly high standards, and a couple of weeks off certainly do make a difference in this atmosphere. That of course does not make the pressure right. It just means that schools and teachers are harangued from both sides at once. We expect you to achieve the results, but we also expect you to be fine with our child taking a chunk of time out from school so that we can save money. Add to that the fact that even with a fine it's still cheaper to go in term time, and you have a situation where nothing is solved, except for the parent who doesn't mind paying the school for their child's absence while still paying less than they would during the holidays.


For me, the problem is specifically located in the 3rd sentence. This isn't about kids or what's best for them, it's about school performance demands, league tables, and rankings. Why should kids lives be diminished for bean-counting purposes?


I'm not sure what you mean. What are you referring to when you say 'this'? Certainly I agree that the government is only concerned with these things, and consequently schools are also compelled to be. There are definitely teachers who don't care much about their kids, but they are very much in a minority. All most want is to do what's best for the children in their care. US entered the profession because he wanted to have a positive impact on young minds, as did his siter and brother-in-law. That is his primary concern, but he and the rest are forced to have to take into account league tables and bean counting.

Given that we know through ample studies that professionals perform worse without breaks, why wouldn't we also expect that of kids? Education is vital as I've argued here in the past many times, but it's not only in school where that education is achieved.


Again, I'm not sure what you mean. Kids do have breaks, every few weeks. Or do the studies specifically concern breaks away?

I sense there is actually a link between these 2 points - again, I am far away and it's hard to get a sense of what's happening on a fine-grain level in the UK, but it seems like schools are being corporatized, and kids being treated like little budding workers.


That's my impression also.

While I'd like to knee-jerk into believing this is all about the Tories, I have to say I imagine a lot of this happened under Nu Labour too. It's no wonder that reports suggest 40% of teachers are expecting to leave the profession in the next 5 years - I know what motivates most teachers (I was one for many years) and I can't imagine many would want to be complicit in this while also being paid shit for the privilege.


Oh, it's all about whatever government is in power. Education is a statement sector - each government promises to make it the best evah to increase our standing in the world. Consequently they won't leave it alone for 5 seconds, and instead continually tweak, chop and change, steadily increasing demands. No one, especially not the kids, has a cat's chance in hell of acclimatising themselves before it's all change again. It's totally unfair.
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Re: School Isolation as Punishment!

#44  Postby Spearthrower » Apr 16, 2019 12:22 pm

Fallible wrote:Spear, my understanding is that suspensions and exclusions are still actions a school can take, but while it's taking months and months and months to get to the point where this happens, other children's education is suffering. Yes, this always happened, as per your personal experience. It happened in my school too. But I know, because I think we are loosely the same age, that there was simply nothing like the expectation placed on pupils that there is now. I remember well how my education was interrupted daily by kids who wandered the classroom physically attacking people - no one cared that much. You performed badly in exams, well...you performed badly. The end. In a school which was full of kids who had been expelled from elsewhere, expectations were probably less again, and so it really didn't matter what was going on. What we have now is practically a different planet. Children are constantly assessed, and there are consequences for not hitting those targets. I'm not sure what teachers are supposed to do.



Don't get me wrong, I am not blaming teachers here.

In fact, the teachers at my school were some of the most inspirational people I've ever had the fortune to meet. My life would have been much the worse without them.

If anything, they're being as badly treated by this system as the kids. But if neither the kids nor the teachers are benefiting from this, then why the fuck is it happening?

Is it going to take 40% of teachers quitting before the Department for Education gets a handle on this? Or do they think they can break it as the government seems to be doing to the NHS so they can just privatize it for the wealthy?
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Re: School Isolation as Punishment!

#45  Postby Fallible » Apr 16, 2019 12:27 pm

I really don't think they think farther than the next general election and getting themselves back into power. You've seen the clusterfuck that is the UK government at the moment. I really think it's a stretch of the most fertile imagination to judge them capable. I think teachers are being treated quite badly, sure, but it is the kids who suffer the most. They are compelled to be at school, and parents can be prosecuted if they're not. Teachers can at least choose where they physically want to be, albeit there are obvious knock-on effects of that, such as unemployment. This is really the only time to say 'won't somebody think of the children' unsarcastically.
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Re: School Isolation as Punishment!

#46  Postby Spearthrower » Apr 16, 2019 12:32 pm

UncertainSloth wrote:bib 1
apologies if i worded that wrongly - i was referring to where you stated that you found it difficult to process it...perhaps belief is too strong a word


No worries. I don't know if you recall me from years ago, but I've spent more than 20 years out of the UK, so I am falling further and further out of touch with occurrences there and rationales for those occurrences.


bib 2
i explained that above - the processes are far more complex and lengthy - i know of an ex-pupil of mine that launched a firework at a lunchtime supervisor at his secondary school...he remained there...

bib 3
don't get me started... :lol:


:grin:


bib 4
i don't think i am, apologies if it comes across that way, just trying to give an up-to-date perspective
i would agree it's always happened, though your school sounds almost like what would be considered a unit these days, but it is recognisable to me that the numbers have grown, added to the inclusion of complex send needs, either in or alongside those students...'


I believe my school was one of the pilot schools for the Academy system, although that was a few years after I left. I think the only way was up there, though!

Actually, there was a documentary on my school way back then which I was front and centre on, but I can't recall the damn name of the show.


isolation is there to be used as a short term reflective tool...unfortunately, in a lot of cases, it's not...whether that is reflective of the school or the government is key to the discussion, i suppose....


I have to say that from the sounds of it, it's largely from the government, but not all schools are equal or equally funded. I think Labour needs to offer a real alternative to the Conservative education platform - something's got to happen, and it would be ideal if that occurred before everything breaks.
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Re: School Isolation as Punishment!

#47  Postby Spearthrower » Apr 16, 2019 12:43 pm

Fallible wrote:
It's not a superior situation, in fact I started my post with the statement that it makes no sense.


Yeah, sorry... I wasn't intending to reply as if you were saying it's what you think is ideal instead of just reporting what you see as happening.


Fallible wrote:But again, parents not being able to afford holidays in school holiday time is not the fault of schools. Incidentally, not wanting to start a whole Monty Python sketch, but I am one of the kids who never had a holiday at all until I was about 15.


Back in my day, holidays were things only French people did. :grin:


Fallible wrote:I'm not sure what you mean. What are you referring to when you say 'this'? Certainly I agree that the government is only concerned with these things, and consequently schools are also compelled to be.


Government / policy makers.


Fallible wrote:There are definitely teachers who don't care much about their kids, but they are very much in a minority.


Unfortunately, seems like a self-selective process where eventually it will only be these who can bear it.


Fallible wrote:All most want is to do what's best for the children in their care. US entered the profession because he wanted to have a positive impact on young minds, as did his siter and brother-in-law. That is his primary concern, but he and the rest are forced to have to take into account league tables and bean counting.


Aye, when I think of teachers, I think of my own - and the vast majority of them were utterly committed... even obscenely committed. My English teacher was so frustrated by how our partner school (long story) had fucked up our chances at A-level English, she basically taught us a 3rd of our A-level syllabus all over again in her own time over the course of about 6 weeks. I got an A in English and it's all thanks to her.


Fallible wrote:
Given that we know through ample studies that professionals perform worse without breaks, why wouldn't we also expect that of kids? Education is vital as I've argued here in the past many times, but it's not only in school where that education is achieved.


Again, I'm not sure what you mean. Kids do have breaks, every few weeks. Or do the studies specifically concern breaks away?


By breaks, I would include their home-lives in that as well, because the poorest kids are, again, the least likely to have enriched and involving home lives.


Fallible wrote:
Oh, it's all about whatever government is in power. Education is a statement sector - each government promises to make it the best evah to increase our standing in the world. Consequently they won't leave it alone for 5 seconds, and instead continually tweak, chop and change, steadily increasing demands. No one, especially not the kids, has a cat's chance in hell of acclimatising themselves before it's all change again. It's totally unfair.


I really think we need to rethink it all from the ground up, but that does of course entail tweaking, chopping and changing everything again! :lol:

I read a study not long ago that delved into neuroscience and neural plasticity, and suggested that due to the ways in which the brain changed, and particularly with the complexity of knowledge today and the increase in life-expectancy, that leaving school at 25 might be a more beneficial system. With the rise of AI, this might even become a necessity when so many of the lowest-skilled jobs are due to be lost.
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Re: School Isolation as Punishment!

#48  Postby Fallible » Apr 16, 2019 12:50 pm

I was definitely not mature enough during childhood and teenage years to make the most of my education. I messed about and muddled through and still somehow ended up with a masters degree, but I always wonder what I could have achieved had I taken it all more seriously. I do sort of instinctively feel that applying oneself to learning is a skill that comes later than the current set-up provides for in a lot of cases.
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Re: School Isolation as Punishment!

#49  Postby Spearthrower » Apr 16, 2019 1:03 pm

Fallible wrote:I was definitely not mature enough during childhood and teenage years to make the most of my education. I messed about and muddled through and still somehow ended up with a masters degree, but I always wonder what I could have achieved had I taken it all more seriously. I do sort of instinctively feel that applying oneself to learning is a skill that comes later than the current set-up provides for in a lot of cases


I agree wholeheartedly.

I still recall my 4th year form head's - clearly frustrated - report wording:

(he) is cruising towards grades he really doesn't deserve to achieve.

:lol:

For me, the school syllabus at the time was just too easy - but it kind of has to be to include everyone. I could fool around without harming my own chances - which really didn't set me up well for university in the slightest. I remember sitting in an undergraduate tutorial class absolutely baffled as all these people conversed fluently in language I barely even comprehended, let alone could partake in.

But by the age of 28, all I wanted to do was learn - and still do! So I can definitely conceive of a future when education goes as long as it needs to.

That's the Caucus Race concept that was actually my high school's philosophy.
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Re: School Isolation as Punishment!

#50  Postby laklak » Apr 16, 2019 3:00 pm

Spearthrower wrote:

I sense there is actually a link between these 2 points - again, I am far away and it's hard to get a sense of what's happening on a fine-grain level in the UK, but it seems like schools are being corporatized, and kids being treated like little budding workers.


Seems to be the point of the whole system, turn out docile little drones. Gin up some patriotic fevor at the same time and those who can't handle the widget factory can join the military. Always need cannon fodder, Ooo Rah!
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Re: School Isolation as Punishment!

#51  Postby surreptitious57 » Apr 16, 2019 3:14 pm

I once heard a mother say she took her daughter on holiday with her during school time but made
her do a specific amount of homework each day so that she didnt fall behind the rest of the class

Nowadays middle class parents are more likely to take holidays at any time of the year rather than just in the
school holidays and so this approach makes excellent practical sense and it may be quite widespread anyway

Why should hard working middle class parents be limited to when they can take their children on holidays ?
Especially as travel companies deliberately hike up prices during the summer just to make a big fat profit ?

Nowadays a child doesnt need to be in a classroom to learn as all they need is a computer and nothing else

Middle class parents really dont need a school lecturing them about how important their childs education is
They already know that but are overall responsible for their childs welfare which is not just their education

Give the child homework that they can do online and then let the parents decide when to take them on holiday
And stop threatening them with fines just in case they do so at a time that is convenient to them not the school
Fining is so nanny state it really is - but has it ever occurred to schools that a holiday can also be an education ?
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Re: School Isolation as Punishment!

#52  Postby surreptitious57 » Apr 16, 2019 3:50 pm

Fallible wrote:
I messed about and muddled through and still somehow ended up with a masters degree

You dont end up with a masters degree by messing about and muddling through - so colour me somewhat skeptical
You should be proud of this rather than doubting your ability which is something you re very good at unfortunately
You therefore wont congratulate yourself but I will - well done for getting your masters

You how have the rest of your life to improve in any way educationally you deem necessary to make up for previous apathy
Even if you are successful in this you still wont congratulate yourself but I will - because you need to hear it from someone

Are you even aware of how hard you are on yourself ? I dont think you are
You can give yourself a break from time to time - it wont kill you you know
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Re: School Isolation as Punishment!

#53  Postby Fallible » Apr 16, 2019 6:12 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:I once heard a mother say she took her daughter on holiday with her during school time but made
her do a specific amount of homework each day so that she didnt fall behind the rest of the class

Nowadays middle class parents are more likely to take holidays at any time of the year rather than just in the
school holidays and so this approach makes excellent practical sense and it may be quite widespread anyway

Why should hard working middle class parents be limited to when they can take their children on holidays ?
Especially as travel companies deliberately hike up prices during the summer just to make a big fat profit ?

Nowadays a child doesnt need to be in a classroom to learn as all they need is a computer and nothing else

Middle class parents really dont need a school lecturing them about how important their childs education is
They already know that but are overall responsible for their childs welfare which is not just their education

Give the child homework that they can do online and then let the parents decide when to take them on holiday
And stop threatening them with fines just in case they do so at a time that is convenient to them not the school
Fining is so nanny state it really is - but has it ever occurred to schools that a holiday can also be an education ?


God I don't know, why should anything that's slightly unpleasant or unfair happen to anyone? Why should I have skin that burns easily? Why should I have to go to work to pay the bills when others don't? Why should poor old middle class parents have to pay more to take their kids on a holiday when they don't have a legal obligation to make sure they're in school? Obviously it's all the fault of schools for having to jump through constantly moving government hoops, not the fault of that government, or of a travel industry out to make as much money as possible. Talk about first world problems. Where's your indignation at the way the government affects kids by squeezing budgets so parents have to provide schools with toilet paper and books - you know, just the basic things kids need in order to be able to learn comfortably? FFS...
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Re: School Isolation as Punishment!

#54  Postby UncertainSloth » Apr 16, 2019 6:14 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:I once heard a mother say she took her daughter on holiday with her during school time but made
her do a specific amount of homework each day so that she didnt fall behind the rest of the class

Nowadays middle class parents are more likely to take holidays at any time of the year rather than just in the
school holidays and so this approach makes excellent practical sense and it may be quite widespread anyway

Why should hard working middle class parents be limited to when they can take their children on holidays ?
Especially as travel companies deliberately hike up prices during the summer just to make a big fat profit ?

Nowadays a child doesnt need to be in a classroom to learn as all they need is a computer and nothing else

Middle class parents really dont need a school lecturing them about how important their childs education is
They already know that but are overall responsible for their childs welfare which is not just their education

Give the child homework that they can do online and then let the parents decide when to take them on holiday
And stop threatening them with fines just in case they do so at a time that is convenient to them not the school
Fining is so nanny state it really is - but has it ever occurred to schools that a holiday can also be an education ?


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Re: School Isolation as Punishment!

#55  Postby Fallible » Apr 16, 2019 6:14 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Fallible wrote:
I messed about and muddled through and still somehow ended up with a masters degree

You dont end up with a masters degree by messing about and muddling through - so colour me somewhat skeptical
You should be proud of this rather than doubting your ability which is something you re very good at unfortunately
You therefore wont congratulate yourself but I will - well done for getting your masters

You how have the rest of your life to improve in any way educationally you deem necessary to make up for previous apathy
Even if you are successful in this you still wont congratulate yourself but I will - because you need to hear it from someone

Are you even aware of how hard you are on yourself ? I dont think you are
You can give yourself a break from time to time - it wont kill you you know


Oh Jesus, please stop. I coasted, I was there at the time, I know. No more of this, if you would be so kind.
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Re: School Isolation as Punishment!

#56  Postby UncertainSloth » Apr 16, 2019 6:20 pm

i can vouch for that as i was there too - she's a fucking lazy bugger... :whistle: :coffee:
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Re: School Isolation as Punishment!

#57  Postby Fallible » Apr 16, 2019 6:37 pm

Thanks, mate. :smug:
She battled through in every kind of tribulation,
She revelled in adventure and imagination.
She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
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Re: School Isolation as Punishment!

#58  Postby UncertainSloth » Apr 16, 2019 6:47 pm

Image
i guess i could be a quiet hero
no one knows the good i've done

e
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Re: School Isolation as Punishment!

#59  Postby Keep It Real » Apr 17, 2019 12:59 am

I've lost enough sleep/peace of mind over surre for the whole board and way beyond. He is not of this world, basically, although is civilised in his own way at least, and that's a lot more than can be said about oh so many, so kudos to him in that respect.
Arthur : All my life I've had this strange feeling that there's something big and sinister going on in the world. Slartibartfast : No, that's perfectly normal paranoia.
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Re: School Isolation as Punishment!

#60  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Apr 17, 2019 7:27 am

Spearthrower wrote:I can imagine a Cooling Off room being appropriate. Somewhere a really riled up kid could sit for a bit and reflect on whatever occurrence happened and their role in it. But I don't see how it can be justified over even the course of 1 day, let alone multiple days. That just represents a failure on the school's part. If a kid is that anti-social or problematic then they either need special help or to be suspended or excluded from school.

Some schools over here have home-trainers or other physical exercise methods to let the kid in question get the stress/anxiety/whatever out of their system.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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