Spearthrower wrote:

UncertainSloth wrote:
so you believe it's ok for children to be taken out of school for an extended period of time for what isn't considered an exceptional reason?

Point of clarity: where did I suggest anything of the sort? I said nothing about what I believe, or disbelieve, I merely compared it to isolation.

I first questioned whether suspension and exclusion were still actions a school could take (because I honestly don't know if that's changed while I wasn't looking) and if they are actions a school can take, then I followed through with...

I can't see a distinction betweem a kid that's so irredeemably awful that they need to be isolated in school from other kids and a kid that should just be suspended. If their behavior's not bad enough to warrant suspension, then their behavior's surely not bad enough to warrant isolation?

So why are they being isolated rather than being suspended or expelled? If anything, I was suggesting they are functionally equivalent.

UncertainSloth wrote:professionally, i don't believe they're fined enough, that's why it still happens...with the fine, it's still much cheaper to go in term time...the demands for progress are far too high for extended absence to not have an impact...
that said, personally, i'd extend the exceptional reason definition from its current form but that's a different debate

It is indeed another argument, and it's one where I'd wonder whether the poorest people should even be allowed holidays. But as you say, different debate.

UncertainSloth wrote:all schools should have positive reinforcement within their behaviour policy, that's not something that's disappeared, but sanctions are, unfortunately, very much needed

Ok, so back to suspension and expulsion...

UncertainSloth wrote:the issue with your reference to suspension and exclusion rather than isolation comes to what i mentioned above...those two are far more difficult to achieve than they used to be, especially permanent exclusion...basically, speaking as one who's working within the process at the moment, you have to demonstrate you have exhausted every possible avenue possible to support that's child's exclusion or referral to behavioural unit...this is made even more complex if the child has send
isolation, where it is used, is one of those hoops that has to be jumped through first...

to be clear, i know i'm coming from experience (and only from a uk persepctive) rather than evidence but i'm trying to explain the weaknesses in our system, not defend them and i certainly don't believe it was applied at all correctly in this case as that child's needs should have been catered for within the send policy, not the behavioural...

Then I am not really sure where you're disagreeing with me, to be honest. I can't see a single thing there that contradicts my point.

UncertainSloth wrote:believe me, as fall said above, the standards of behaviour have changed massively in the last 25 years...i hold my own opinions as to why that is...

While I don't dispute this, I have to say that I went to a highschool where a 14 year old kid beat up a teacher right in the front of the class and was actually taken down by other pupils, teens routinely took drugs and alcohol during school hours, knives, shanks and other weapons were routinely discovered, during a full school assembly, a kid called Craig hopped up on the stage behind the Head Teacher, pulled down his trousers and full-mooned the entire school and staff, gave the teachers the bird, then climbed out of a window to avoid the head of P.E. tackling him. These are just off the top of my head, and I am sure given a while longer I can recall some even more extreme anecdotes.

Even I hit a teacher once, but fair play, he was strangling me at the time!

We were the school you got sent to when you were expelled from every other school in the area - one kid ended up at our school after putting a fellow 13 year old in a coma for refusing to share his crisps - but in all the time I was there, I only recall a single instance of our school expelling anyone, and I can't even recall what that kid did, but it would have had to have been unbelievably egregious by any standard, past or present.

Not to suggest you're wrong that this kind of behavior is more wide-spread than before, but it has always happened, and it's always been difficult to deal with. That doesn't make isolating children in our care any less of an abject failure, both in systematic terms and morally.

Spearthrower wrote:

I sense there is actually a link between these 2 points - again, I am far away and it's hard to get a sense of what's happening on a fine-grain level in the UK, but it seems like schools are being corporatized, and kids being treated like little budding workers. While I'd like to knee-jerk into believing this is all about the Tories, I have to say I imagine a lot of this happened under Nu Labour too. It's no wonder that reports suggest 40% of teachers are expecting to leave the profession in the next 5 years - I know what motivates most teachers (I was one for many years) and I can't imagine many would want to be complicit in this while also being paid shit for the privilege.

Spearthrower wrote:

Fallible wrote:I think whether you agree with the fine or not, how things are right now make no sense. The problem isn't a school problem, it's a problem within the tourism industry - that they choose to capitalise on the fact that families are constrained to take holidays during certain weeks of the year. You'd expect nothing less from a money making enterprise. Companies aren't going to respond to complaints about the price hike, so apparently parents decide to go for what they see as the path of least resistance in their quest to save money.

This discussion is moving far away from the topic of the thread, albeit acknowledging that it was me who introduced it as a means of highlighting how I have lost some sense of schooling in the UK. But as we're here now, I will say that I came from a benefits family, and the only time we ever went on holiday was in the off-season. Not off-season for airplane travel as I never flew anywhere until I'd all been and groweded up after I was proparly edukated. I mean off-season for caravan parks on the south coast a hundred miles from home!

If back then my parents had been faced with a fine, we wouldn't have been able to go on holiday at all. I can't see how that's meant to be a superior situation for a child from any perspective, even educationally. My recollection of family holidays is that they were pretty abysmal, all things considered, but they were at least a change of scenery once a year.

Fallible wrote:A lot argue that a couple of weeks off makes no discernible difference to the progress of their child. I don't think they're considering just how much things have changed since they were at school. Schools are facing unprecedented pressure for children to perform to increasingly high standards, and a couple of weeks off certainly do make a difference in this atmosphere. That of course does not make the pressure right. It just means that schools and teachers are harangued from both sides at once. We expect you to achieve the results, but we also expect you to be fine with our child taking a chunk of time out from school so that we can save money. Add to that the fact that even with a fine it's still cheaper to go in term time, and you have a situation where nothing is solved, except for the parent who doesn't mind paying the school for their child's absence while still paying less than they would during the holidays.

For me, the problem is specifically located in the 3rd sentence. This isn't about kids or what's best for them, it's about school performance demands, league tables, and rankings. Why should kids lives be diminished for bean-counting purposes?

Given that we know through ample studies that professionals perform worse without breaks, why wouldn't we also expect that of kids? Education is vital as I've argued here in the past many times, but it's not only in school where that education is achieved.

I sense there is actually a link between these 2 points - again, I am far away and it's hard to get a sense of what's happening on a fine-grain level in the UK, but it seems like schools are being corporatized, and kids being treated like little budding workers.

While I'd like to knee-jerk into believing this is all about the Tories, I have to say I imagine a lot of this happened under Nu Labour too. It's no wonder that reports suggest 40% of teachers are expecting to leave the profession in the next 5 years - I know what motivates most teachers (I was one for many years) and I can't imagine many would want to be complicit in this while also being paid shit for the privilege.

Fallible wrote:Spear, my understanding is that suspensions and exclusions are still actions a school can take, but while it's taking months and months and months to get to the point where this happens, other children's education is suffering. Yes, this always happened, as per your personal experience. It happened in my school too. But I know, because I think we are loosely the same age, that there was simply nothing like the expectation placed on pupils that there is now. I remember well how my education was interrupted daily by kids who wandered the classroom physically attacking people - no one cared that much. You performed badly in exams, well...you performed badly. The end. In a school which was full of kids who had been expelled from elsewhere, expectations were probably less again, and so it really didn't matter what was going on. What we have now is practically a different planet. Children are constantly assessed, and there are consequences for not hitting those targets. I'm not sure what teachers are supposed to do.

UncertainSloth wrote:bib 1
apologies if i worded that wrongly - i was referring to where you stated that you found it difficult to process it...perhaps belief is too strong a word

bib 2
i explained that above - the processes are far more complex and lengthy - i know of an ex-pupil of mine that launched a firework at a lunchtime supervisor at his secondary school...he remained there...

bib 3
don't get me started...

bib 4
i don't think i am, apologies if it comes across that way, just trying to give an up-to-date perspective
i would agree it's always happened, though your school sounds almost like what would be considered a unit these days, but it is recognisable to me that the numbers have grown, added to the inclusion of complex send needs, either in or alongside those students...'

isolation is there to be used as a short term reflective tool...unfortunately, in a lot of cases, it's not...whether that is reflective of the school or the government is key to the discussion, i suppose....

Fallible wrote:
It's not a superior situation, in fact I started my post with the statement that it makes no sense.

Fallible wrote:But again, parents not being able to afford holidays in school holiday time is not the fault of schools. Incidentally, not wanting to start a whole Monty Python sketch, but I am one of the kids who never had a holiday at all until I was about 15.

Fallible wrote:I'm not sure what you mean. What are you referring to when you say 'this'? Certainly I agree that the government is only concerned with these things, and consequently schools are also compelled to be.

Fallible wrote:There are definitely teachers who don't care much about their kids, but they are very much in a minority.

Fallible wrote:All most want is to do what's best for the children in their care. US entered the profession because he wanted to have a positive impact on young minds, as did his siter and brother-in-law. That is his primary concern, but he and the rest are forced to have to take into account league tables and bean counting.

Fallible wrote:

Given that we know through ample studies that professionals perform worse without breaks, why wouldn't we also expect that of kids? Education is vital as I've argued here in the past many times, but it's not only in school where that education is achieved.

Again, I'm not sure what you mean. Kids do have breaks, every few weeks. Or do the studies specifically concern breaks away?

Fallible wrote:
Oh, it's all about whatever government is in power. Education is a statement sector - each government promises to make it the best evah to increase our standing in the world. Consequently they won't leave it alone for 5 seconds, and instead continually tweak, chop and change, steadily increasing demands. No one, especially not the kids, has a cat's chance in hell of acclimatising themselves before it's all change again. It's totally unfair.

Fallible wrote:I was definitely not mature enough during childhood and teenage years to make the most of my education. I messed about and muddled through and still somehow ended up with a masters degree, but I always wonder what I could have achieved had I taken it all more seriously. I do sort of instinctively feel that applying oneself to learning is a skill that comes later than the current set-up provides for in a lot of cases

Spearthrower wrote:

I sense there is actually a link between these 2 points - again, I am far away and it's hard to get a sense of what's happening on a fine-grain level in the UK, but it seems like schools are being corporatized, and kids being treated like little budding workers.

Fallible wrote:
I messed about and muddled through and still somehow ended up with a masters degree

surreptitious57 wrote:I once heard a mother say she took her daughter on holiday with her during school time but made
her do a specific amount of homework each day so that she didnt fall behind the rest of the class

Nowadays middle class parents are more likely to take holidays at any time of the year rather than just in the
school holidays and so this approach makes excellent practical sense and it may be quite widespread anyway

Why should hard working middle class parents be limited to when they can take their children on holidays ?
Especially as travel companies deliberately hike up prices during the summer just to make a big fat profit ?

Nowadays a child doesnt need to be in a classroom to learn as all they need is a computer and nothing else

Middle class parents really dont need a school lecturing them about how important their childs education is
They already know that but are overall responsible for their childs welfare which is not just their education

Give the child homework that they can do online and then let the parents decide when to take them on holiday
And stop threatening them with fines just in case they do so at a time that is convenient to them not the school
Fining is so nanny state it really is - but has it ever occurred to schools that a holiday can also be an education ?

surreptitious57 wrote:I once heard a mother say she took her daughter on holiday with her during school time but made
her do a specific amount of homework each day so that she didnt fall behind the rest of the class

Nowadays middle class parents are more likely to take holidays at any time of the year rather than just in the
school holidays and so this approach makes excellent practical sense and it may be quite widespread anyway

Why should hard working middle class parents be limited to when they can take their children on holidays ?
Especially as travel companies deliberately hike up prices during the summer just to make a big fat profit ?

Nowadays a child doesnt need to be in a classroom to learn as all they need is a computer and nothing else

Middle class parents really dont need a school lecturing them about how important their childs education is
They already know that but are overall responsible for their childs welfare which is not just their education

Give the child homework that they can do online and then let the parents decide when to take them on holiday
And stop threatening them with fines just in case they do so at a time that is convenient to them not the school
Fining is so nanny state it really is - but has it ever occurred to schools that a holiday can also be an education ?

surreptitious57 wrote:

Fallible wrote:
I messed about and muddled through and still somehow ended up with a masters degree

You dont end up with a masters degree by messing about and muddling through - so colour me somewhat skeptical
You should be proud of this rather than doubting your ability which is something you re very good at unfortunately
You therefore wont congratulate yourself but I will - well done for getting your masters

You how have the rest of your life to improve in any way educationally you deem necessary to make up for previous apathy
Even if you are successful in this you still wont congratulate yourself but I will - because you need to hear it from someone

Are you even aware of how hard you are on yourself ? I dont think you are
You can give yourself a break from time to time - it wont kill you you know

Spearthrower wrote:I can imagine a Cooling Off room being appropriate. Somewhere a really riled up kid could sit for a bit and reflect on whatever occurrence happened and their role in it. But I don't see how it can be justified over even the course of 1 day, let alone multiple days. That just represents a failure on the school's part. If a kid is that anti-social or problematic then they either need special help or to be suspended or excluded from school.